The Really...Really Dark Side of Scientology?

[compared2what?]

I wouldnt doubt that. Same sort of harnassed darkness that flowed like wine through the ancient Egyptian elite, the Romans, the Aztecs, the British monarchy, the Nazis and the Pentagon.

Darnit! I wish this were not threading its way forward when I was so much in transit. I owe you a response on another thread that's related to the same misleadingly eensy meaningful distinction. Which ain't no genius observation, it's just easy to forget.

Same sort, yes. But same? Maybe. Or maybe partly. Or maybe not at all.

They're isomorphic. Similarities and overlaps beyond that are case-by-case. That's just life in all its annoying complexity. In the history of anything. There's proto-whatever, followed by local variants, then a millennium here, a millennium there, and pretty soon you're talking substantive differences.

[OP ED]

Op Ed, there's corroborating-ish evidence to support some of it. So I don't think it's pure bullshit, personally. Off the top of my head, the first example that springs to mind supports the part about L. Ron was into oh-oh-oh, it's-MagiCK at a much later date than his DEFINITELY NOT GAY workings with Parsons. It's in a little ditty known as...either "the admissions" or "the affirmations." Or something very similar.

It's a transcription of him talking into a tape recorder of dictaphone for the writer working on his then-proposed biography. There's nothing hinky about its provenance as far as I know. And he is talking some indisputably Crowley shit. That's little noted, as far as I know, but the literature is vast, and not that many people are in a position to recognize Crowley shit as distinct from simply insane shit.

Wait one moment, will find link.

Stands to reason that Hubbard would steal from OTO as much as he stole from everything else he insinuated himself into.

Started reading the pdf, won't finish it tonite likely, as it seems to lack even Parsons' coherence. Have yet to encounter anything especially interesting, though there is lots of biographical information that seems irrelevant to me. I see anything that looks Crowley to me, I'll speak up. Though having been an OTO member, it seems obvious that he'd borrow some here and there. He seems to have had as little understanding of actual occultism as Parsons. The Beast had nothing good to say about LRH. He found his behavior offensive, which, given the source, is perhaps relevant in and of itself. Of course, prolific rumors aside, I'm of the opinion that ole Crow was actually fairly conservative by modern standards. I've always found it fascinating that those people most closely associated with "thelema" today are mostly people he was in the process of excommunicating [or had finished with] when his death occurred. Parsons, Grant, Jones, McMurty, etc. Seems the entire OTO apparatus was co-opted by anglo-american intelligence agencies and turned into a fuckclub/front organization for various unsavory activities. There is some [circumstantial] evidence to suggest EAC was aware of this, hence his attempts to move his influence outside the "vehicle" organizations as he neared the end of his lifespan.

BTW, Parsons' correspondences tend to indicate that his relationship with LRH was perhaps sexual, but not in the usual sense.

I have seen more than enough evidence of the psyops techniques that COS employs to believe that there may be some "black" stuff happening, and indeed LRH clearly has interest in esoteric matters. I'm not sure that I'd maintain his actual ability to perform, however. He seems to have been a crap magician. Which is why he reverted to technological/psychological means of control. I've seen nothing personally to evidence any "spiritual" powers of scientology tech aside from the general feedback mechanisms associated with "clearing", etc. Empty mind, empty soul.

That is, I view its inherent tendency towards spiritual decay as rather a side effect. I'll allow the possibility that they have adepts who are aware of this effect, but if so, their means of applying it is fairly limited assuming this level of knowledge. That is, there are much simpler ways to destroy souls and take peoples' monies. [Rex Mundi Christianity?]

The correlations between third veil OTO practices [first level AA] and some of the Stargate stuff is much more interesting to me personally. Nor directly related, I don't think, as it involves other branches of the "them" I hear so much about.

Most [even occultists] peoples' knowledge of Crowley's systems seems to end at the second level. That is, they understand that the ritual elements are symbolic descriptions of tantric sex techniques designed to induce awareness of "the black hole of consciousness" [to use Gary Lachman's term]. Most of them seem to be unaware that the sex rituals aren't the endgame, but are themselves only symbols as well. [and exercises, of course, like the ritual elements are to them, circles in circles] The modern [mc]OTOs appear to be either completely unaware of this, or deliberately avoiding its discussion. I favor the former, actually, as it isn't plainly addressed in OTO literature [on purpose].

I wouldnt doubt that. Same sort of harnassed darkness that flowed like wine through the ancient Egyptian elite, the Romans, the Aztecs, the British monarchy, the Nazis and the Pentagon.

I agree with the word "sort".
In the sense that what you are describing is primate behavior. Otherwise you're gonna have to explain to me how the Aztecs and the Romans are somehow related.

Oh well. I don't believe in the "them" or dark energy flow conspiracies. No offense, but it seems like rubbishy simplistic thinking to me. Whatever helps you not to sleep at night, I suppose.

Love is Law,
SHCR81 [ahem, "Fuck you HB778" *steps on beetle*]

[compared2what?]

What Op Ed said.

I didn't mean to suggest that Hubbard was an adept; that is a risible idea, and it's almost cruel to think it. He was not right in the head, for what reason I do not know. But whatever the malady, he manifestly literally wasn't capable of sustained, disciplined mental activity of any kind, including but not limited to anything more than the most superficial comprehension of any philosophical or spiritual systems of thought, belief, and practice -- certainly not of anything as sophisticated as Crowleyan magickkkkKKK. That just wasn't within his reach or his grasp.

But he didn't know that. By the same token, as a matter of fact. He sincerely thought he got it, and not knowing himself to have a crude and childlike mind, for what it's worth, I think it more likely than not that he was completely unaware that having people stare at ashtrays and then making them feel defective for not thereby achieving enlightenment was not, actually, Thelema taken to a higher level by the genius of L. Ron Hubbard.

He was also a con artist, and long had been. It's difficult to grasp that a cult leader of his general type can be both a huckster and a true believer, because it's not sensible. But, you know, they're not sensible people, and I can think of several who, like Hubbard, and as far as all evidence indicates were (or are) indeed both. That's just the paradoxical nature of human existence. And in a very extreme form, in Hubbard's case, since he really was not a well individual.

In any event, it's almost totally irrelevant to Scientology in the present. That's very much David Miscavige's show, and any attention to who Hubbard was and what he believed is just lip service, albeit a ginormous amount of lip service. To put my advocacy of case-by-case analysis into practice.

[8bitagent]

Still, I wonder if Hubbard thought that in 2008, the world would still make headline news and a big hub bub about Scientology.

[orz]

In any event, it's almost totally irrelevant to Scientology in the present. That's very much David Miscavige's show, and any attention to who Hubbard was and what he believed is just lip service, albeit a ginormous amount of lip service. To put my advocacy of case-by-case analysis into practice.

Yep, if anything D.M. is trying to write out a lot of Ron's stuff... "Squirreling the tech" as the scientologists would say.

[compared2what?]

What Orz said. Hubbard probably did think Scientology would be making headlines in 2008, but he also appears to have thought that he would live forever in a godlike form as would all his true followers, so it might not have been his most cherished aim. But who knows? As previously stated, he wasn't rational.

DM is interesting, too, as a matter of fact. But very, very frightening. Much more of a threat than Hubbard ever was. There are those who speculate he killed Hubbard, in fact. I don't know about that. But he gives the impression o being capable of just about anything.

[OP ED]

Still haven't found time to read it properly, but it seems interesting, at least in a psychological sense, so I'll let you know what I think when I finish. Thanks for the pdf, btw.

As far as Hubbard's irrationality goes, it seems to permeate everything he touches. even his fiction is borderline obsessive. [and not really any good either, IMO]

Crowley himself was a bit of a child, though he did know his esoteric jargon like no one else I've ever encountered. He seems to have taken it more seriously than he took anything else. Fortunately we Thelemites are not required to venerate him, or even to like him very much. I tend to view his "worshippers" as generally tending towards the shallow end of the knowledge pool, as he clearly wasn't godlike. Or even a particularly good person, for that matter. He was also only a slightly better fiction writer than Hubbard. His poetry runs the gamut from sublime to sophomoric and this seems to depend on his theme. The "tone" of his "holy books" [class A writings] occassionally reaches epic and/or chilling in the extreme. Like the best of the King James Bible or Shakespeare, both of whom he cited as influencing his attempts in this regard.

I tend to view LRH as the traditional huckster opportunist type. He seems to have had a general smattering of actual knowledge in dozens of areas, and to have been "adept" in at least one of them. Manipulation.

He seems to have gotten caught up in the power of the sex act himself, which is a common stumbling block for many aspiring magicians. Some of them even possess much knowledge but are unable to apply it because of their over emphasis on the tantric stuff [Donald Tyson is probably the only person who seems qualified to correct Crowley's readings of Enochian, but he himself has written like eight books on wanking with demons].

The AA was significantly ahead of its time, and SRI seems to have adapted some of their "low" magick techniques for its Stargate program [like using +/- reinforcement to enhance ESP scores]. I've personally had more results from this line of study than almost any other I've ever pursued insofar as western occultism goes.

ah well. takes one to know one eh.
[sorry Donald, you wanker]

Love is Law,
SHCR

[8bitagent]

There's this really famous black French guy from the 19th century, famous for his occult sex magick teachings. I've actually found in research a number of American and European black famous occultists in a time when their own societies rejected them.

Many people try to extend a racist stigma to European occultists in the 16th-20th century, but what's interesting is the keen interest in bridging mystery knowledge from all parts of the world...from Tibet, to Egypt, to Jewish Cabbala...not just the Hermetic mysteries.

Now whats this with Scientology and the StarGate thing? Ive heard of a book called "The StarGate conspiracy" and so forth, and I remember hearing that word pop up in researching the "nine". I didnt know it relates to L Ron tho.

[American Dream]

8bitagent wrote:

Now whats this with Scientology and the StarGate thing? Ive heard of a book called "The StarGate conspiracy" and so forth, and I remember hearing that word pop up in researching the "nine". I didnt know it relates to L Ron tho.

STARGATE was a specific program of research into military/intel applications of psychic phenomena, but it is used as shorthand for the whole series of programs, before and after, which investigated this area. In a similar way, MKULTRA was one specific program, but the name is commonly used for the ongoing research and operations agenda which it represents.

I named Russell Targ as a representative example of the milieu that linked Scientology and "The Nine" because Targ worked on PROJECT SCANATE which became STARGATE with Hal Puthoff and other high-level Scientologists who were selling their professed remote viewing skills to Uncle Sam through experiments based at the Stanford Research Institute. Targ was also associated with Esalen, home of "The Nine".

It's very convoluted, but anyone who wishes to can follow the links below to find out more:


http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/hambone/places.html


http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/hambone/people.html


http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/hambone/history.html