Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis

[vigilant]

Not to mention the fact that this "secret leaked report" comes straight from the same ilk of money grubbing assholes that are hosting the current world financial crisis.....these people piss on our leg and tell us its raining on a regular basis.

[JackRiddler]

.

This discussion confuses me. It's like everyone's trotting out their favorite jazz move.

So my multi-clause question runs as follows

May I simultaneously be against
- crop-based biofuels and ethanol propaganda
- EU and US agricultural subsidies (in their present form favoring large agribusiness)
- continued reliance on hydrocarbons and suppression or ignoring of alternative energies
- speculation and profiteering on oil as well as food
- the World Bank and everything it stands for
- GM crops and the false-hope ideology associated with them
- the bourgeoisie
- eugenics and the ideology of Malthusian inevitability
- overconsumption, energy inefficiency, war and other wastes of energy and food
- the focus on beef ueber alles
- permanent "growth" economics without regard for ecological carrying capacity

While at the same time being for
- a food-first policy of staple self-sufficiency for each region before production of commodities for world markets
- organic and decentralized farming
- reinvesting most of the war and arms budgets into crash programs to develop energy alternatives, rail transport and efficiencies
- preserving primary forests and biodiversity
- a cultural revolution against overconsumption in the West/North
- humanistic population control based on the general improvement of health systems, living conditions, education and women's rights, which is the only model that ever succeeded in reducing population growth in the long term
- development of poor countries via import substitution rather than "globalization"?

Can I? Without contradicting myself and without needing to pick a single item from the above as my hobby horse or bete noir?

Just wondering.

[StarmanSkye]

Jack -- I'll stand you drinks anytime, and a heaping bowl or two of homemade Hobo gumbo (is there any other kind?)

Thanks for the smile -- tho your point is serious as hell and full of common sense too. More folks need wot yer smokin'!

[slow_dazzle]

Well said Jack. What we need is a multi-layered approach to finding a way out of the mess, an approach based upon reality rather than wishful thinking and ignorance of scientific fact. And we need to start right this minute because the ship is already taking on water. We should call a halt to all road building as soon as we can and I am a huge fan of local food production for local consumption. And one of the biggest changes we could effect is to downsize our lifestyle; that is one of the fastest ways to cut individual overheads and decrease pressure on resources. It won't be easy and there will be concomitants such as job losses when demand decreases and thus impacts upon the economy. But if we don't try the economy will be toast anyway after we start going down the other side of the energy plateau.

It might be a little simplistic to sum up the myriad of problems in one sentence. Nevertheless, the basic problem is we are using too much of everything from energy through water to physical resources. We need to downsize and we need to slow our lives down so we can become a community and find real purpose, meaning and contentment in life.

About the snide comment regarding Wintler's sig line. There is a saying that goes something like "Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities". There is a sibling to that basic truth: those who can make you believe in fairy tales can make you look in the wrong place for the truth. Sometimes this fairy tale is deliberately, and cynically, peddled by those who don't want people to start asking the right questions. Sometimes the fairy tale is passed on by those who fail to engage with reality. Either way, the end result of the fairy tale telling is to lead people up the garden path.

So Wintler's sig line is particularly apposite. Focus on fairy tales all you want but don't expect to find fairies at the bottom of the garden because you will never get there.

[slimmouse]

Well said Jack. What we need is a multi-layered approach to finding a way out of the mess, an approach based upon reality rather than wishful thinking and ignorance of scientific fact. And we need to start right this minute because the ship is already taking on water. We should call a halt to all road building as soon as we can and I am a huge fan of local food production for local consumption. And one of the biggest changes we could effect is to downsize our lifestyle; that is one of the fastest ways to cut individual overheads and decrease pressure on resources. It won't be easy and there will be concomitants such as job losses when demand decreases and thus impacts upon the economy. But if we don't try the economy will be toast anyway after we start going down the other side of the energy plateau.

It might be a little simplistic to sum up the myriad of problems in one sentence. Nevertheless, the basic problem is we are using too much of everything from energy through water to physical resources. We need to downsize and we need to slow our lives down so we can become a community and find real purpose, meaning and contentment in life.

About the snide comment regarding Wintler's sig line. There is a saying that goes something like "Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities". There is a sibling to that basic truth: those who can make you believe in fairy tales can make you look in the wrong place for the truth. Sometimes this fairy tale is deliberately, and cynically, peddled by those who don't want people to start asking the right questions. Sometimes the fairy tale is passed on by those who fail to engage with reality. Either way, the end result of the fairy tale telling is to lead people up the garden path.

And within those three paragraphs are the entire crux of the issue.

The puppetmasters have been pissing on the common sense approach to food production for years - we are all agreed. Why ?

The same people have been causing wars all over the planet for the last one hundred years, and a lot longer than that in fact ( if you know youre history). Why ?

As have they been speaking out of both sides of their mouths with the"war on drugs". Why ?

As have they been insisting on "healthy eating" whilst currently in the rapid process of starving people with the shit food they offer us. Why ?

They are currently at the Haltem and Price Bye election, speaking out of both sides of their mouths on the "Big Brother" issue. Anyone want to see how this works need only keep up with that.

Anyone who believes this is about money at the real top end of the pyramid needs certifying. As does anyone who believes their is no common link between the persons in all of those categories.

There sure aint no fairies , neither at the bottom of the garden, nor at the top of the pyramid, just a bunch of cynical controlling emotionless 'reptillian' humanoids. And it is those who have indeed been making humanity commit atrocities for thousands of years, whilst at the same time doing their best to make us all believe that they dont exist, when its as plain as the nose on your face that these people do. I dont like people trying to tell me that these people dont exist, or that Im mad for believing that they do.

Go figure.

[wintler2]

I have to go with slimmouse on this one. ...

shoulda done some research first, say on the 2007 suspension of set-aside across the EU..

..The problem though – of which the commissioner seems to be wholly unaware – is that by far the bulk of set-aside is not available, being already dedicated to non-food production. This we have noted before, in the context of the land being used for biofuels production, but that is by no means the only use.

According to the commission's own website, such uses include the production of textile fibres (flax, cotton and hemp), starch for industrial use, vegetable oils, chemical and pharmaceutical products and medicinal plants. Maize is also produced, not only for bio-energy but for several industrial processes such as surface finishing and heat and sound insulation. Maize particles can also be used in the packing industry for fragile goods.

Additionally, there is widespread growing of linseed, with the oil used for paint products and a co-adhesive in popular fibreboard. It also replaces some solvents and petroleum-based chemicals in the products' formulations, and is used in linoleum flooring. ..

Thus, while in 1993/94, 17 percent of set-aside was under production (EU-12) it rose to 44 percent in 1995/96 (EU-15) and while it dropped to 20 percent for some years, the combination of increased demand for biofuels and the CAP reforms which brought about the Single Farm Payment scheme opened the floodgates. Currently, therefore, the bulk of usable set-aside land is under cultivation and, in 2006 the commission was reporting that more than 95 percent of the non-food set-aside areas were dedicated to energy crops.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... rying.html

I'd suggest a little research and thought before following another of SMs parades of ignorance.

-

This discussion confuses me. It's like everyone's trotting out their favorite jazz move.

So my multi-clause question runs as follows

May I simultaneously be ..
Can I? Without contradicting myself and without needing to pick a single item from the above as my hobby horse or bete noir?

Just wondering.

Absolutely JR, putting it all together is in fact the only way out of this diabolical mess, and i second - no third - every item on your agenda. Except maybe 'against .. the bourgeoisie', cos i'm not sure who they are these days.

[sunny]

But Ive always said hes full of shit anyways.

Was that really necessary slimmouse? Surely you could say wintler is wrong about something without smearing him with poo?

[vigilant]

I have to go with slimmouse on this one. ...

shoulda done some research first, say on the 2007 suspension of set-aside across the EU..

..The problem though – of which the commissioner seems to be wholly unaware – is that by far the bulk of set-aside is not available, being already dedicated to non-food production. This we have noted before, in the context of the land being used for biofuels production, but that is by no means the only use.

According to the commission's own website, such uses include the production of textile fibres (flax, cotton and hemp), starch for industrial use, vegetable oils, chemical and pharmaceutical products and medicinal plants. Maize is also produced, not only for bio-energy but for several industrial processes such as surface finishing and heat and sound insulation. Maize particles can also be used in the packing industry for fragile goods.

Additionally, there is widespread growing of linseed, with the oil used for paint products and a co-adhesive in popular fibreboard. It also replaces some solvents and petroleum-based chemicals in the products' formulations, and is used in linoleum flooring. ..

Thus, while in 1993/94, 17 percent of set-aside was under production (EU-12) it rose to 44 percent in 1995/96 (EU-15) and while it dropped to 20 percent for some years, the combination of increased demand for biofuels and the CAP reforms which brought about the Single Farm Payment scheme opened the floodgates. Currently, therefore, the bulk of usable set-aside land is under cultivation and, in 2006 the commission was reporting that more than 95 percent of the non-food set-aside areas were dedicated to energy crops.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... rying.html

I'd suggest a little research and thought before following another of SMs parades of ignorance.

-

This discussion confuses me. It's like everyone's trotting out their favorite jazz move.

So my multi-clause question runs as follows

May I simultaneously be ..
Can I? Without contradicting myself and without needing to pick a single item from the above as my hobby horse or bete noir?

Just wondering.

Absolutely JR, putting it all together is in fact the only way out of this diabolical mess, and i second - no third - every item on your agenda. Except maybe 'against .. the bourgeoisie', cos i'm not sure who they are these days.

Wars don't "just happen"....they are carefully planned and constructed.

The way a nations people are governed don't "just happen"...it is carefully planned and constructed.

Food production doesn't "just happen"...it is carefully planned and constructed.

This list could go on....and on....and on....but I won't. This food mess didn't just happen because this is the place the market forces drove it. Market forces do indeed have an impact on the situation, but these same "market forces" have names and faces and addresses behind them. With current farming technology and available land I sincerely believe that IF THERE WERE ANY INTENTION TO DO SO THE WORLDS PEOPLE COULD BE EASILY FED. PEOPLE WHOSE FOOD SUPPLY IS SCARCE WILL DO ANYTHING TO SURVIVE, AND I BELIEVE THERE IS A CERTAIN CALIBER OF ASSHOLES IN THIS WORLD THAT NEED A STEADY SUPPLY OF PEOPLE WILLING TO DO ANYTHING TO SURVIVE TO DO THEIR BIDDING.

Paying farmers NOT TO GROW FOOD is good for who exactly? It damn sure isn't good for the common man. But there has to be some reasons for this sort of madness right? Somebody benefits......hmmmm wonder who that might be?

Who was the ram rod behind putting ethanol in gasoline anyway? Oh my, maybe the same people that were paying farmers not to grow food....what a coincidence. But hey they love us right? So i'm sure they are just doing their best to serve us right? I don't think so......

[slimmouse]

I'd suggest a little research and thought before following another of SMs parades of ignorance.

-

And so speaketh a man, who not more than 21/2 years ago was going to be standing with me on the ethanol barricades.

Would the REAL wintler please stand up ?

Ethanol is responsible for the food crisis. Too fucking funny. You couldnt make this crap ( with deference to sunny ) up

[slow_dazzle]

Ethanol is responsible for the food crisis. Too fucking funny. You couldnt make this crap ( with deference to sunny ) up

Please post some data to show why you think this is being made up and to what end. And don't resort to nasty comments because disruption is what the reptilians undoubtedly welcome along with disinformation, divide, disrupt and deride. We don't want to do their work for them, now do we?

BTW, I wasn't implying you were mad in my initial post in this thread. Just as your comment that you are living in cloud cuckoo land in another thread was not my comment, your statement that I was implying you are mad are your words and not mine. For clarification, and the avoidance of doubt, I was referring to your apparent avoidance of scientific fact and that is more a form of denial than a clinical condition.

There are matters I would like you to amplify. These include whether reptilian mindsets are genetic or the corollary to the corrupting influence of power. I would also like you to lay out your views on who the controllers are and how they implement their, for want of a better word, strategy. I do believe in the massive influence of the CFR, Bilderberg Group etc. I even believe in evil as a concept but that is a word laden with all sorts of baggage and it is open to demolition by the very science I use to support certain ideas.

I must emphasise that I am not being snarky, nor am I laying childish booby traps so I can come back and say nyah, gotcha! I don't want to further the disruption that tears us all apart rather than us debating where we are headed and by what means. Division, disruption and derision keep us looking the wrong way...

[slimmouse]

Please post some data to show why you think this is being made up and to what end. And don't resort to nasty comments because disruption is what the reptilians undoubtedly welcome along with disinformation, divide, disrupt and deride. We don't want to do their work for them, now do we?

We dont want to do their work for them ? Did you actually imply that of me ?



As for the request for Data SD. Ive asked you about 20 questions in prior posts, none of which youve even attempted to answer, and now you expect data from me ?

But, to try and assist in some way;

Farmers paid millions to sit on emptry land, and the food crisis is the result of Bio fuel farming ?

Grain mountains, subsidies to the rich to run poor farmers out of business, and the bio fuel farming is responsible for the current crisis ?

Monsanto filing patents for grain seeds, and producing seedless grain , and the current fuel crisis is cos of Bio fuel farming ?

Let us just imagine for one moment that it does indeed have a bearing on the situation.

As someone who seems to understand how the current financial crisis has been carefully orchestrated.

Do you see any similarities in the "food crisis" ?

[slow_dazzle]

late o'clock etc.

I'll try to post back on this issue because it is important.

I agree about the Monsanto issue although I suspect it's more a case of Disaster Capitalism than part of a plan to enslave humanity.

I think there is more to this than meets the eye though but I'm not convinced it's anything other than opportunism.

I didn't mean to imply you were part of the psyop. No way man.

Final word for now slim - responding to the ongoing crisis might be sensible. Storing food etc. If we talk about the outrageous behaviour of TPTB it will only be talk. I'd rather prepare for the worst than assume it's all lies and starve.

Later slim.

[wintler2]

Oh frabjulous day! apparently there is no COC problem with SM swearing and telling lies, except the fearsome moderator wrath demonstrated by Sunny. So i guess a little 'quid pro quo' is in order, without breaking my vow not to refer to the useless wanker in the first person. Sorry JR, SD and others trying to make a useful thread of this, but i can't backdown before a bully and have to speak about the cretin in a lingo he can ken.

.. As for the request for Data SD. Ive asked you about 20 questions in prior posts, none of which youve even attempted to answer, and now you expect data from me ?

Now slow_dazzle, you know SM never provides ANY meaningful evidence and never argues a coherent train of thought; that how you can tell he's a spoilt mommys boy. Why do SMs significant others (e.g. poster 'vigilant') always agree with the pro-elite wacko? I suspect its cos his selfpitying whining is even louder in person than online.

.. Farmers paid millions to sit on emptry land, and the food crisis is the result of Bio fuel farming ?

Slimmouse lies again and again, his pro-elite bullshitter cred only grows. SM demonstrates how arrogance feeds ignorance, as keeps trying to make a point that my link from preceeding page rebutted - what a fucking moron, too arrogant to even read my quote or the link. The dweeb also cites no competing evidence because ...his whining verbal diarhea works just fine on mummy, so why shouldn't it here? Boy is she making a rod for her own back. Personally i can't wait till SMs balls drop, then maybe he'll go out into the real world and find a clue.

[slimmouse]

Oh frabjulous day! apparently there is no COC problem with SM swearing and telling lies, except the fearsome moderator wrath demonstrated by Sunny. So i guess a little 'quid pro quo' is in order, without breaking my vow not to refer to the useless wanker in the first person. Sorry JR, SD and others trying to make a useful thread of this, but i can't backdown before a bully and have to speak about the cretin in a lingo he can ken.

.. As for the request for Data SD. Ive asked you about 20 questions in prior posts, none of which youve even attempted to answer, and now you expect data from me ?

Now slow_dazzle, you know SM never provides ANY meaningful evidence and never argues a coherent train of thought; that how you can tell he's a spoilt mommys boy. Why do SMs significant others (e.g. poster 'vigilant') always agree with the pro-elite wacko? I suspect its cos his selfpitying whining is even louder in person than online.

.. Farmers paid millions to sit on emptry land, and the food crisis is the result of Bio fuel farming ?

Slimmouse lies again and again, his pro-elite bullshitter cred only grows. SM demonstrates how arrogance feeds ignorance, as keeps trying to make a point that my link from preceeding page rebutted - what a fucking moron, too arrogant to even read my quote or the link. The dweeb also cites no competing evidence because ...his whining verbal diarhea works just fine on mummy, so why shouldn't it here? Boy is she making a rod for her own back. Personally i can't wait till SMs balls drop, then maybe he'll go out into the real world and find a clue.

So farmers havent been paid not to produce crops ? Tell me youre not claiming this please.

The last time I heard something so stupid, it was that 19 arabs with stanley knives did 9/11.

As for the insults, OK , so now were even. Youve had your rant and Ive had mine.

That said , you continuously post your stupid sig line, despite admitting that Antiaristo had it all nailed.

Not only that Wintler - less than 3 years ago , you were joining me on the Ethanol barricades.

So, will the real YOU please stand up ? I feel like Im dealing with a serious pschizophrenic here.

ON EDIT,

OK all stupid sniping and shennanigans aside, i am seriously dissapointed that anyone falls for this kinda OP headline, particularly on a forum such as this.

[wintler2]

Can someone call this childs parents please. His persistant lying makes it impossible for him to play well.