Scientist say: Humans And Machines Will Merge In Near Future

[barracuda]

Okay, we're way off topic here, but since this thread is pretty much defunct anyway, yeah, I know all about those flying cars, the ones you have to fly out of an airport, and need a pilot's license to operate, cost 3.5 million dollars, the Moller, the Millner, etc. They're really just hand-built prototypes, no production models, and even the most advanced ones, like the Moller, barely work. The PAL-V, like many of these "cars", exists only as a computer simulation and engineless model for fundraising purposes. For a hundred grand, you can put a Cessna on a trailer, fercrissakes.

Here is a video of the Moller, arguably the only working "Skycar" in the world. Tell me if this looks at all practicable or perfected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElS9BKSsezw

Notwithstanding the Harrier, it seems that the concept of vertical take off aircraft have stymied the most advanced minds in civilian and military enginneering. The Osprey line of aircaft have all but failed fairly miserably. Here's the classic VTOL Osprey in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ty9WVVFdPk

And here I'd like to relate this topic to this discussion thread on UFOs because if the military pours money down the hole on these VTOL projects, which they obviously cannot master, why are we to believe there exists "black tech" flying saucers capable of so much more? I have to assume that the VTOL problem has been attacked by some of the greatest aeronautical engineers on the planet, right? Or is this a case of the right hand unaware of the actions of the left, to the point where these Osprey tests are permitted to go on as a form of disinformation and subterfuge to hide the fact that there do exist other highly developed forms of aircraft for which these issues pose no problems?

And herein lies another issue I have with Kurzweil's tangents on technological progress: they strike me as sheer fantasy. We are by no means anywhere close to the ideas he put forward without a virtually unimaginable breakthrough, like a Woolworths priced quantum computing device, and nanomachine surgical procedures which exist only as science fiction, and have existed only in that form for the last thirty years. The militarized uses of such ideas is the only form these notions will ever possess, out side of cul-de-sac tinkerers like Moller.

[FourthBase]

I am in complete agreement with JackRiddler here. Post-humanism is anti-humanism, period. The desire for post-human scenarios is surely the sign of a horribly-adjusted person in need of a hug/medication, and more. I would almost rather humanity be totally annihilated in a Permian-type extinction than "evolve" itself into post-human metaphysical annihilation. Any kind of drastic physical transformation for humanity in the next hundred years (as opposed to, say, the next hundred millenia) automatically means catastrophe of the worst kind, to be avoided at all costs. Humans may only be my fourth favorite great ape, but we are still fucking awesome and lovable, on the whole.

[vigilant]

I am in complete agreement with JackRiddler here. Post-humanism is anti-humanism, period. The desire for post-human scenarios is surely the sign of a horribly-adjusted person in need of a hug/medication, and more. I would almost rather humanity be totally annihilated in a Permian-type extinction than "evolve" itself into post-human metaphysical annihilation. Any kind of drastic physical transformation for humanity in the next hundred years (as opposed to, say, the next hundred millenia) automatically means catastrophe of the worst kind, to be avoided at all costs. Humans may only be my fourth favorite great ape, but we are still fucking awesome and lovable, on the whole.

The day Dolly The Sheep was successfully cloned I had the sickest feeling in my stomach. I sent an email to several of my friends that basically said, "Guys, this might be the blackest day in human history". They shrugged it off as if they didn't understand why. Well...go figger...they always thought I was weird. That is why I hang out here with you guys, some of ya are even weirder than me..."thank goodness" (wink)

At the same time, I think about the prospects of being able to grow cartilidge for damages knees, which would enhance the quality of life and alleviate pain. I think of all the pain relieving, life enhancing, and life extending prospects. I think of these, and I think they are beneficial.

My thoughts on this issue are obviously hybrid. Hybrid between remorse and glee. Mankind has proven that excess is often its forte. Considering the advances that have taken place "just" since the great depression, I don't think its a question of "if" but when humankind takes this to an extreme. At the rate technology is doubling, it may even be in my lifetime.

Who would have thought it.......

[DrVolin]

Soon it will be time for me to join, or organize, the biological resistance. We'll live on the surface and EMP all their power sources to hell. We'll make campfires, have children, hunt and fish, and die, like it was meant to be.

Seriously, without death and birth, there is no new variability, and no adaptation. Only selection and extinction. I think there will eventually be a significant conflict driven by competition for ownership of biotechnological means to extend life. If I'm still around when it starts, I'll be shooting at both sides.

[compared2what?]

Who would have thought it.......

Nietzsche?

Personally, I look forward to what I'm sure will be a simple, smooth and pain-free transition.

Though if I drove, I'd probably just want the flying car.

[vigilant]

Who would have thought it.......

Nietzsche?

Personally, I look forward to what I'm sure will be a simple, smooth and pain-free transition.

Though if I drove, I'd probably just want the flying car.

Yes Nietzsche absolutely knew the pain and madness that comes with genius. I think a lot of the pain and madness that comes with genius is the disconnect it produces. Disconnect from the rest of the human race...a lonely existence.

[compared2what?]

Who would have thought it.......

Nietzsche?

Personally, I look forward to what I'm sure will be a simple, smooth and paion-free transition.

Though if I drove, I'd probably just want the flying car.

Yes Nietzsche absolutely knew the pain and madness that comes with genius. I think a lot of the pain and madness that comes with genius is the disconnect it produces. Disconnect from the rest of the human race...a lonely existence.

I know what you mean, although imo, the genius-madness thing is correlation not causality.

But I was thinking more about Kurzweil's predictions in the context of eternally recurrently same Ubermenschen-ex-machina aspirations and the insurmountability of human error than I was about genius and madness. I just didn't make that clear, because if I had it just wouldn't have been as...





...also spracht c2w, you know? I have an imaginary reputation to maintain, after all. I can't just suddenly start making sense. That would be unfair to my imaginary fans, to whom I owe my imaginary everything..

ON EDIT: Oops, wrong image. Better now.

[FourthBase]

But I was thinking more about Kurzweil's predictions in the context of eternally recurrently same Ubermenschen-ex-machina aspirations and the insurmountability of human error

[compared2what?]

Oh, man. You had to ask. didn't you? I haven't read Thus Spoke Zarathustra, or anything by Nietzsche, in more than thirty years. But IIRC, broadly speaking: God is dead, and all human transcendental aspirations that derive from a binary understanding of worldly/otherwordly experience are false. Because worldly is all there is.

However, just because humanity can't get anywhere until it utterly excises every iota of dead paradigm from itself and its civilization, leaving it without, inter alia, any morality or system of higher values, that's no excuse for being all nihilistic and shit. Because humanity can and should aspire to transcend itself and thereby become a race of ubermenschen on earth -- ie, superhuman. But not supernatural, obviously, since you'll never get to be superhuman until you fully realize the fallacy of all forms of otherwoldliness. How many times does Zarathustra as written by Nietzsche have to tell you that for it to sink in?

And while that does exclude eternal paradise, that's not really a loss. Because since it was never in your own backyard, you never really lost it to begin with, so to speak. On the contrary, by looking elsewhere, you lost contact with the eternal recurrent same which is not a fallacy but a worldly reality that is definitely:

(a) eternal;
(b) recurrent;
(c) immutable; and
(d) worldly.

Other than that, it's capable of multiple valid interpretations, one of which is that it's some form of artificial intelligence -- arguably, extra-terrestrial and/or extra-dimensional but not otherworldly.

Which brings us to 2001, which is also capable of multiple valid interpretations, not to say a work the meaning of which is so highly disputed that the dispute extends to whether it has any. Which is, imo, a ludicrous question, given that the only way you can overlook it being, in part, a commentary on Thus Spoke Zarathustra is to stop paying attention to the soundtrack before the movie starts.

And on that level, in my view (which isn't the consensus view) it's a multiply iterated depiction of mankind's failure to transcend itself along the lines envisioned by Nietzsche (and Kurzweil), owing to the eternal recurrent sameness at every stage of worldly development of human error. Of which Thus Spoke Zarathustra itself is an example, per Kubrick's view as understood by me, ultimately. Anyway. Moving right along. I used the phrase "human error" because it's the cause to which HAL attributes all wrong. As did the actual Zoroaster when speaking for himself rather than as a rhetorical device employed by Friedrich Nietzsche. Though not in those exact words, admittedly.

Shorter version: The OP reminded me of Thus Spoke Zarathustra, which reminded me of 2001, according to my understanding of which, the benefits for humankind predicted by Kurzweil can't and won't overcome humankind's eternal recurrent same error. Which is always an error of understanding if it's an error of omission, and always an act of violence against worldly integrity if it's an error of commission.

Thus speak I. Regrettably. But you did ask.

[compared2what?]

You know, if U.S. Steel had cared enough back in the '60s simply to make the damn concept cars the way Syd Mead drew them, we wouldn't have just had flying cars, we would have had hovering station wagons.





And very long limbs. But no. They had to drive him to Bladerunner production design with their intransigence, the poor man.

[erosoplier]

Because worldly is all there is.

I was wanting to say as much on 1 or 3 other threads today, but couldn't find the words. Thanks c2w?.

[nathan28]

On edit, i didn't notice the thread had deviated so much, so what follows is pretty irrelevant:

.

Nope, not into the post-human stuff. Been reading Kurzweil for a while, and his thinking strikes me as decidedly anti-human. He hates us, hates himself, thinks if he becomes something else the something else that's no longer him will magically be happier, better, more worthwhile.

It's hard to draw distinctions between people and their machines, I know, but it can still be done today. Machine-human melds will still be humans, fooling themselves that they have magical extensions.

However, when entirely non-human machines truly become smarter than humans and possess their own individual consciousnesses and wills, it will be the duty of the humans to their own survival to immediately destroy these machines and kill those who want to make more of them. Sorry, my idea of progress is not to go extinct on behalf of superior beings because they'll have faster processing times. The fish and the ants and the baboons don't think that way either, insofar as they think.

Analogously, when humans find the way to achieve physical immortality, another of Kurzweil's obsessions (and he is not alone), it will become the duty of all rock-throwing teenagers of whatever age on the planet to kill all of the immortals. Just look ahead to the year 2100, and Bill Gates and Madonna and Richard Branson and Carly Fiorina and the DeVos family and a bunch of Bushes and Moons and Kurzweil and Craig Ventner and Murdoch's son and 10,000,000 other ruling class non-entities are still there, quasi-zombies because there's no way they'll maintain intact the identities or memories or passions over the centuries that actually make a person, but still there: in charge: owning it all: eating up the air and the opportunities: being glorified by the celebrity worshipping media they still own: dowsing the least spark of new life. Now imagine those who are born into this world, or sprout from the proverbial test-tube, or however it's done by then. Youth will have been robbed of all life, they will have no higher duty than to kill all immortals and reduce the civilization back to a state of semi-creative barbarism. Seriously.

The only reason this stuff persists is because it propagates on the goddamn internet. Yes I'm biting the hand that feeds me. Because geek culture is all over the goddamn internet, everywhere. You've got people who work in an exteremely specialized field (computing) who have been telling each other the same crap over and over and over for the past thirty-five years, over channels that were isolated to only them for all but the past twelve or so.

So it gets increasingly insular, and increasingly baroque, and stops making sense: Techolibertarians chanting "Upload your conscious to the internet!" Yeah, sure, dude, but last time I check, "my" ego-level everyday consciousness is pretty contingent on being in a body with a brain. Because Kurzie isn't talking about uploading your deep mind, he means you, like you're a character in the Sims that you could just save to a disk and relocate... fucking ridiculous. I hate to cite Ken Wilber, but he said that the idea that you could upload "you" onto a computer is pretty much supported by guys who don't get laid or engage in any physical activity; that's a little harsh, but I think he's right.

Likewise, to suggest that this stuff will be mass-market any time in the next hundred years is horseshit. Yeah, some dude in Switzerland built a rocket-wing pack that he can fly around on. How much do you think it costs you to buy a replica? This Techno-utopianism ignores the simple facts of economy, political control, etc.

I do tend to agree, without the biological matter, i suspect "the force" isn't there.

[FourthBase]

Oh, man. You had to ask. didn't you? I haven't read Thus Spoke Zarathustra, or anything by Nietzsche, in more than thirty years. But IIRC, broadly speaking: God is dead

"God" is dead.

, and all human transcendental aspirations that derive from a binary understanding of worldly/otherwordly experience are false. Because worldly is all there is.

Not just those particular aspirations: ALL aspirations to transcend. The aspirations aren't false so much as the interpretations are. Aspirations = the will. Sure, the aspirations to overcome this world originate from a resentful (ergo, false) place, but it's up to the aspirant to know thyself and control thyself, to sublimate the origins and whatnot.

However, just because humanity can't get anywhere until

No "until".

it utterly excises every iota of dead paradigm from itself and its civilization, leaving it without, inter alia, any morality or system of higher values, that's no excuse for being all nihilistic and shit.

Word!

Because humanity can and should aspire to transcend itself and thereby become a race of ubermenschen on earth -- ie, superhuman.

You realize he wasn't literally talking about a physical new race, right? And the operative word should be overcoming not transcending, as in, a lonely sickly genius overcoming his pain and resentment. Psychological overcoming.

But not supernatural, obviously, since you'll never get to be superhuman until you fully realize the fallacy of all forms of otherwoldliness. How many times does Zarathustra as written by Nietzsche have to tell you that for it to sink in?

Zarathustra is probably one of the last books people should read if they don't already understand Nietzsche to a large extent. To get it out of your head, I suggest reading the lovely and accurate book Nietzsche in Turin. And then read everything except Zarathustra.

Thus speak I. Regrettably. But you did ask.

Thanks for answering!



The rest of your post was very interesting.

[compared2what?]

Ah, it comes back to me when you, well...have just put it in front of me seconds ago.

As I said, I haven't read any Nietzsche in decades, and whatever nuanced interpretation I once might have had of his work is no longer accessible to me except as refracted through a work in which I found too much meaning to be able to forget it.

Thanks for being gentle with me.

[compared2what?]

You realize he wasn't literally talking about a physical new race, right?

Yes, I do, actually. And should have said so, as others, historically and notably haven't always been so clear on that point. I think I've posted it before, but I long ago composed a mnemonic device to keep the consonants of his last name in the correct order in my mind. It is sung to the tune of the Mickey Mouse Club Theme, and it goes like this:

Who'd the Third Reich use to buttress its philosophy?
It was Friedrich N-I-E-T-Z-S-C-H-E!

Because he was used rather than understood, is my point.