Why the return of Trotskyite and Lenist "Cults" ?

[chlamor]

By Leninist and Trotskyite, I don't mean people who actually follow the political economy of either of those thinkers. I am referring to certain tactics adopted by Leninst and Trotskyite parties in the US in the 1930s --

Thanks for making that important distinction. Though the tactics remind me most of a more recent example: LaRouche.

To the larger question, I think it's a co-option of the Left's latest disenchantment with a Democratic administration. Co-option by who, that's undetermined.

What tactics are you speaking of Jeff? Please be quite specific and give a few examples.

[Usrename]

The stuff that is really complicated to me seems oversimplified in these discussions, while the simple things are discussed as if they are an enigma.

As for the cult-like behavior at PI, it’s quite simple, the place has become a cult. They worship at the feet of their master (read: lick his boots).

But the Obama issue, that one is much more complicated. Two or three years ago, I honestly believed that the descent into fascism and tyranny had accelerated to a pace at which it was conceivable to me that any resistance would have been rounded up by now and incarcerated. I mean think about it, the official policy of the state was torture (and I’m not all that sure it still isn’t).

As a nation two years ago, we had very few options. I, and everyone else I spoke to, was completely stymied. It was an impossible situation where everything had already been lost - the media, the message, the ability to organize - everything.

Then Obama comes along and he offers the first plan that sounds like it could work. And it’s pretty simple. Get a large enough majority of people to vote and we can turn this ship back around. It was the only thing I ever head discussed that sounded reasonable. So a whole bunch of people did a whole bunch of organizing and it worked, sort of.

I don’t think I shared the same high expectations that others had. I did want to see some justice done for all the war crimes, but there is no statute of limitations on that, and we have a real obstacle here, the US Supreme Court. The Court has only gotten worse since they declared it unconstitutional to count legally cast votes back in 2000. Worse I tell you. Before any successful action can be taken on dealing with war crimes, the Court must change. (I would suggest impeaching Scalia, but that’s another discussion.)

So what can be accomplished now, and how can it be done? I have to agree with Michael Moore in his address to the blue dogs. I think he has it right. It is magical thinking to believe that Obama, or any one person, can bring about the kind of changes we are asking for without being supported by a huge and vocal mob. It’s complicated, but I’d rather hang onto what little hope I have left than abandon it now.


And by the way, cult leaders do have their moments of inspiration: The Democrats are the piss that "sets" the cloth

[Jeff]

Hey Hamden do you get paid by the Democratic party in some capacity?

Hey chlamor, review the posting guidelines.

What tactics are you speaking of Jeff? Please be quite specific and give a few examples.

I would, but I won't. Because I know where you would run to post them. Oh, the drama.

I don't like the way you're playing in one sandbox and pissing in another.

[trashman]

[quote="DancingBear"]Well, one could ask the question in a different light:

Why are people perpetually whoring for the Democratic Party when is nothing more than a house organ for corporate America?

Why are people mindlessly repeating DLC/Democratic propaganda, even though it has been conclusively demonstrated that DLC/Democratic Party is owned by corporate America who's been running a cult for years that has never once had an honest election or opened honest dialogue, and that sees its main goal as lying to unions and attacking Democratic Socialists, "progressive" Democrats, Greens, and other left of center parties?

You see, PI has become a parody, but so has DU.>>

Important to realize that describes the modern Pacifica network programming at KPFA, promoting DLC America. Thats how bad things are.
Worse than we can possibly acknowledge, and still keep going. Hard to describe the shape of an Elephant when your posting priviledges are revoked for doing so.



<<You, by contrast, have come to the lunatic belief that every single person who does not subscribe to exactly your point of view is some sort of corporate whore. That's why you will never amount to anything of importance in the political sphere, and will confine yourself to posting on crazy, increasingly narrow ideological websites like PI.>>

<<But the idea that the Democratic Party is only a corporate tool, is frankly insane>>

*cough*
dont stop, I see a bright future in standup!

<<I don’t think I shared the same high expectations that others had. I did want to see some justice done for all the war crimes, but there is no statute of limitations on that, and we have a real obstacle here, the US Supreme Court. The Court has only gotten worse since they declared it unconstitutional to count legally cast votes back in 2000. Worse I tell you. Before any successful action can be taken on dealing with war crimes, the Court must change. (I would suggest impeaching Scalia, but that’s another discussion.) >>

I would suggest prosecuting Biden for the composition of the Supreme Court. No one is more responsible. No one.

[JackRiddler]

What actually is the "Democratic Party"? Is it Rahm Emanuel and the DLC? Or is it the slightly progressive, slightly sleezy local district leader in my neighborhood? Or is it Dennis Kucinich? Is it Barak Obama? Is it my GF's union, the SEIU? Is it me because I reliably vote Democratic?

Of those you list, who sits in the White House? Who constitutes the Congressional leadership, who runs the Rules and Ways and Means committees and thus determines legislative agendas?

Whatever the DLC wants, it hardly controls what every single person who identifies as a Democrat believes.

This can't be serious. Obviously the DLC doesn't control that. And what do they care, and why do you remind us of such trivial truths? The DLC-GS-DNC apparatchiks control the legislative agenda, the media access, the bounds of debate on the "liberal" or "left" side. ("From the left, James Carville!") Isn't that a bit more relevant than informing us about what a glorious melting pot one finds among the foot-soldiers? They vote for Obama, then they get Summers and Geithner and Bernanke in charge. And Rahm Emanuel and Robert Gates.

And to the DLC and to the majority of the actual politicians who are where they are thanks to corporate money and corporate media, that's what "every single person who identifies as a Democrat" is: foot soldiers. Servants. From the DLC/politician perspective, all the people can do is refuse to vote Democrat, which accomplishes nothing except to put Republicans in power (and also to get the non-Democratic-voters scapegoated, in the sick and persistent way Party Democrats still have it in for Nader instead of SCALIA). Then they learn their lesson. What do these apparatchiks ever actually do, besides promise change in election years and shit on their base the rest of the time?

I'm stupid and stubborn enough to believe what you say to the extent I think it possible that one day the Democratic voters will sweep out all of the DINOs.

[chlamor]

Hey Hamden do you get paid by the Democratic party in some capacity?

Hey chlamor, review the posting guidelines.

What tactics are you speaking of Jeff? Please be quite specific and give a few examples.

I would, but I won't. Because I know where you would run to post them. Oh, the drama.

I don't like the way you're playing in one sandbox and pissing in another.

Ah your hypocrisy is blinding Jeff. So these asshats can at length and at will do all of their conjecture on Tinoire's "spooky" past and can also slander away at the much to be feared "cultists" (which is actually no more than standard issue red-baiting which you seem to be in line with) and yet a simple query to what is Hamden's actual connection to the corporate political whore machine of which he religiously defends is out of bounds?

Please Jeff I think you've completely lost your grasp on the situation.

Now Jeff you too seem quite content to make some rather insane accusations but have yet to back any of it up with facts. Are they in the mail or are you gonna let that go with just a simple slur from you and some retarded innuendo about "where it comes from?" Oh boy is it really "undetermined" Jeff or is that some drama you need for the comic books.

"You would but you won't?" What's that crap Jeff if not some child-like denial of having any facts at all and even less courage. You are making accusations. Why can't you back them up? Not because you won't but because you can't.

[Jeff]

So these asshats can at length and at will do all of their conjecture on Tinoire's "spooky" past

The troll who attempted to was banned.

Now Jeff you too seem quite content to make some rather insane accusations

chlamor, maybe you've made your litter box, and need to go lie down in it.

[chlamor]

A friend sent this word on Hamden's beloved DSA:

DSA... the most right-wing, reactionary, PNAC rooted, Scoop Jackson loving, apologist-for-imperialism, McCarthy-backing, bullshit organization ever to wear the "Socialist" label... That's where this worthless piece of shit is coming from. I knew it was from somewhere.

"Largest" my ass... 12 fuckers doing William F. Buckley, "from the left"...

Ha. And I love the red-baiting. They are not actually "Leninist and Trotskyite"... they merely practice the same "tactics".

http://progressiveindependent.com/dc/dc ... _id=102165

[Jeff]

chlamor, maybe you've made your litter box, and need to go lie down in it.

I think you have.

I'm suspending your account. When your assholism clears up, you'll be welcome back.

[DoYouEverWonder]

Hey Hamden do you get paid by the Democratic party in some capacity?

Hey chlamor, review the posting guidelines.

What tactics are you speaking of Jeff? Please be quite specific and give a few examples.

I would, but I won't. Because I know where you would run to post them. Oh, the drama.

I don't like the way you're playing in one sandbox and pissing in another.

Ah your hypocrisy is blinding Jeff. So these asshats can at length and at will do all of their conjecture on Tinoire's "spooky" past and can also slander away at the much to be feared "cultists" (which is actually no more than standard issue red-baiting which you seem to be in line with) and yet a simple query to what is Hamden's actual connection to the corporate political whore machine of which he religiously defends is out of bounds?

Please Jeff I think you've completely lost your grasp on the situation.

Now Jeff you too seem quite content to make some rather insane accusations but have yet to back any of it up with facts. Are they in the mail or are you gonna let that go with just a simple slur from you and some retarded innuendo about "where it comes from?" Oh boy is it really "undetermined" Jeff or is that some drama you need for the comic books.

"You would but you won't?" What's that crap Jeff if not some child-like denial of having any facts at all and even less courage. You are making accusations. Why can't you back them up? Not because you won't but because you can't.

There was only one person on that thread, who dumped a load of crap about Tin. A new poster, who Jeff promptly banned. If you're so concerned about people slandering Tin, why don't you take it up with one of Leftie's socks? I'm sure you're friends with some of them.

[HamdenRice]

A friend sent this word on Hamden's beloved DSA:

DSA... the most right-wing, reactionary, PNAC rooted, Scoop Jackson loving, apologist-for-imperialism, McCarthy-backing, bullshit organization ever to wear the "Socialist" label... That's where this worthless piece of shit is coming from. I knew it was from somewhere.

"Largest" my ass... 12 fuckers doing William F. Buckley, "from the left"...

Ha. And I love the red-baiting. They are not actually "Leninist and Trotskyite"... they merely practice the same "tactics".

http://progressiveindependent.com/dc/dc ... _id=102165

If you guys believe that about DSA, well that says everything about you, doesn't it?

As my DSA post at DU mentioned, some of the leading figures in DSA are: Noam Chomsky, Barbara Ehrenreich, Cornel West, Gloria Steinem, Ed Asner, Ron Dellums, Dolores Huerta (co-founder of United Farmworkers), and William W. Winpisinger (President of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers).

If you consider them to be "the most right-wing, reactionary, PNAC rooted, Scoop Jackson loving, apologist-for-imperialism, McCarthy-backing, bullshit organization ever to wear the "Socialist"", then you are clearly labeling yourself as someone who is not part of the "reality based community."

Who are some of the leading figures of your "socialist" party?

[Jeff]

If you guys believe that about DSA, well that says everything about you, doesn't it?

I see chlamor's friend later corrected himself:

Oops... I'm wrong...
anaxarchos
In response to Reply #9

I'm thinking of SD-USA. That's the neocons. DSA is the lame "socialists" within the Democratic Party... Walter Mondale, anyone?

[marshwren]

If you guys believe that about DSA, well that says everything about you, doesn't it?

Who are some of the leading figures of your "socialist" party?

Well, yes and no. While i can hardly endorse the over-the-top prose used to criticise DSA, the suggestion that they belong to the 'accomodationist' wing of 'socialism' (and not only to the 'democratic wing' of the DP, either) does have more than a little validity. But that rather misses the point: DSA also belongs to the "anti-communist" (or "authoritarian") wing of the left (as, i suspect, do most other leftists), and this accounts for most--if not all--of the piss, vinager and vemon.

As for who the NPG regards a "true" or "genuine" socialists, they've turned PI into one big reading room/guided discussion group/intellectual slumber chamber for that, and i'm quite certain they wouldn't object to your, or anyone else's, lurking...

[23]

Speaking of socialist exemplars, where is a Eugene Debs when you need him?

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Heroe ... alism.html

(excerpt)

Eugene V. Debs and the Idea of Socialism
by Howard Zinn
The Progressive magazine, January 1999

We are always in need of radicals who are also lovable, and so we would do well to remember Eugene Victor Debs. Ninety years ago, at the time The Progressive was born, Debs was nationally famous as leader of the Socialist Party, and the poet James Whitcomb Riley wrote of him: "As warm a heart as ever beat betwixt here and the Judgment Seat."

Debs was what every socialist or anarchist or radical should be: fierce in his convictions, kind and compassionate in his personal relations. Sam Moore, a fellow inmate of the Atlanta penitentiary, where Debs was imprisoned for opposing the First World War, remembered how he felt as Debs was about to be released on Christmas Day, 1921: "As miserable as I was, I would defy fate with all its cruelty as long as Debs held my hand, and I was the most miserably happiest man on Earth when I knew he was going home Christmas."

Debs had won the hearts of his fellow prisoners in Atlanta. He had fought for them in a hundred ways and refused any special privileges for himself. On the day of his release, the warden ignored prison regulations and opened every cell-block to allow more than 2,000 inmates to gather in front of the main jail building to say good-bye to Eugene Debs. As he started down the walkway from the prison, a roar went up and he turned, tears streaming down his face, and stretched out his arms to the other prisoners.

[HamdenRice]

If you guys believe that about DSA, well that says everything about you, doesn't it?

Who are some of the leading figures of your "socialist" party?

Well, yes and no. While i can hardly endorse the over-the-top prose used to criticise DSA, the suggestion that they belong to the 'accomodationist' wing of 'socialism' (and not only to the 'democratic wing' of the DP, either) does have more than a little validity. But that rather misses the point: DSA also belongs to the "anti-communist" (or "authoritarian") wing of the left (as, i suspect, do most other leftists), and this accounts for most--if not all--of the piss, vinager and vemon.

As for who the NPG regards a "true" or "genuine" socialists, they've turned PI into one big reading room/guided discussion group/intellectual slumber chamber for that, and i'm quite certain they wouldn't object to your, or anyone else's, lurking...

See Jeff's post above. I think you are confusing Democratic Socialists of America with the Social Democrats. When the Socialist Party split decades ago, one of its factions was an extreme "anti-communist left". They became the Social Democrats and neo-conservatives, not the Democratic Socialists. As far as I know DSA has never had much of a position on the former Soviet Union or on communism in general.

In fact, my recollection of Cornell West, one of DSA's founders, in the 70s, was that he was steeped in Marxist theory and very enthusiastic about "Eurocommunism." (On edit: Eurocommunism referred to the communist parties of Western Europe that were breaking with the Soviet Union's communist party on issues of elections and free speech.)

The socialist left's main problem with Stalinism, Leninism and Trotskyism was always that they did not believe in elections (formal democracy) or free speech. That was always the big divide. With the demise of Soviet communism, and the acceptance by Russian and Eastern European successor communist parties of formal democracy, the issue is largely moot -- except with the fragmentary splinter groups, like Socialist Workers Party, Socialist Equality Party/World Socialist Web Site and the like that still believe in secretive organization, no formal democracy, following the party line, and other Leninist/Trot/Stalinist tactics and organizations principles (in the past, referred to by the Orwellian term, "Democratic Centralism", ie that decisions would be made solely by the Central Committee of the party).

Apparently, PI is now firmly in that camp.