Every Vertebrate Is Just a Little Bit Gay

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Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:22 am

aimdrained wrote:Ahab: I don't think the overpopulation hypothesis for explaining homosexuality behavior works out well.
But for a second, consider that this was the case, that homosexuality emerged more and more as a population maximized the potential use of a location. We might be tempted to say that evolution is working here to control the population, that evolution is working in the best interest of the species.
But if that were true, 'what' would be making the decision?


Why, God, of course!

Only joking.

aimdrained wrote:It would entail some kind of higher-order decision-making 'something', and that's something I'm not comfortable accepting because its just conjecture.


You're right, the whole idea of sexual selection rests on the idea that nature never selects 'negatively', so my theory doesn't really work within that frame. I also pre-supposed the existence of a genetic cause of homosexuality, which is conjecture too - though I tend to believe that people/animals are born gay rather than being socialized or environmentally influenced into homosexuality. I hadn't really thought it through - it was more a question than something I would posit myself.

Jack Riddler wrote: At any rate, I'm under the impression that the old civilian army prior to Vietnam and many other all male institutions like English public schools were once a riot of man on man action. (With the excuse that "Hey, I'm not gay, I just like to fuck men," as Ray Cohn the character says in Angels in America.) On the other hand, maybe I'm relying over much on Gore Vidal. And Dr. Kinsey. It doesn't seem to be the case in the professional modern military, or the NFL. Yet. Should outing ever hit pro sports, half this country will truly believe the end of the world is nigh.


It does seem that all-male environments tend to be more homosexual. That might sound like the most obvious and tautological statement ever, but if we think of homosexuality as being influenced by species-wide genetics, we'd expect it to be equally prevalent everywhere, whether women were around or not.

I remember an old guy talking about his first day in the merchant navy, pre-WW2, when the second words his shipmate said to him after welcoming him aboard was: "Give us a wank, mate."

And then there's Churchill's famous opinion on the history of the Royal Navy: ""Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy, and the lash." Roy Cohn would've loved it.

I suppose we don't really know what goes on in the modern military or the NFL. I mean... we just don't know. It's like Hollywood.

I never understood Gore Vidal's position - it seems contradictory for a man born of woman to deny the very existence of heterosexuality. Couldn't he have done the Descartian thing: "I am, therefore... dad was probably straight."

jfshade wrote: Meant to respond yesterday, but when I saw that I had written the words "enjoying non-procreative sexuality", I was cast into a vortex of despondency for the rest of the evening.

Haha! That's not so bad, though, really.

I have another theory, but it's probably mildly offensive, and I want to see what other folk think first.
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Postby JackRiddler » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:27 am

monster wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:
monster wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:disadvantaged by more frequent fights


Wouldn't that just make them better fighters?


Why don't you try it out and see?


My mistake - I thought I saw a serious, interesting discussion here.


Well then please accept my apologies - I thought you were kidding around.

I suppose after generations a lot of fighting among group members would result in better individual fighters, but how would it improve social cohesion? If the group with more fights has more members injured (and a higher death rate) and isn't working together at a time of confrontation among groups, I was thinking this would be a disadvantage against groups who cooperate and communicate more effectively and have less conflicts among themselves, even if the cooperative group's individuals are not as strong on average in fighting. (Anyway, in this hypothetical the cooperative group would still have fighting over alpha status going on; only less of it because losers could still find satisfaction.)
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Postby JackRiddler » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:24 pm

jfshade wrote:Meant to respond yesterday, but when I saw that I had written the words "enjoying non-procreative sexuality", I was cast into a vortex of despondency for the rest of the evening.


But why? I think I came up with that phrase for the sake of accuracy and clarity. It's clinical and bulky, but acknowledges that our own dichotomy of "hetero" and "homo" drives may not be the right way (or the only way) of categorizing the behaviors observed in animal species. A general term based on strict observation allows us to get past categories from human culture. We can conceive of the observed behavior as signifying only the capacity to like "doing it" (erotic play and genital stimulation with other species members) beyond a male-female procreative function. Animals may not assign significance to whether the desired object is opposite- or same-sex, meaning what they do is not "gay" or "straight" (or even "non procreative") to them. It's just pleasure and loving, which probably results in close individual attachments (among mammals anyway - excuse my anti-reptilianism).

In short, I think the operative instinct behind what is termed homosexual behavior in animals is a general, free drive to receive and give pleasure (love?!) and attach to fellow species members, which expresses itself situationally without necessary regard to who's got which organ.

But, anyway, my view is that if you refer to selection working on the group you are speaking metaphorically. The real selection events happen at a lower level, though they certainly have consequences for individual organisms and their social groups.


My understanding of the theory is that variation begins in an individual's genome but that selection occurs at any level from the individual to the species as a whole.

But nobody has addressed the proximate cause of your original post - the teacher who has been suspended for assigning the Roughgarden article to his Honors English tenth graders. The witch hunting elders of the Piasa, IL, (pronounced "pie-a-saw") school board not only suspended him, but
... even called in state child welfare authorities to determine whether the assignment might amount to child abuse.
???


It sickens me. And makes me despair at the Hobson's choice between democracy (school boards) and technocracy (education departments).

Whence all the hysterical, ignorant fear? Am I missing some critical dose of bat shit crazy by neglecting to watch TV?


If so, probably. Nothing transports crazy like video and audio.
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Postby monster » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:33 am

JackRiddler wrote:I suppose after generations a lot of fighting among group members would result in better individual fighters, but how would it improve social cohesion? If the group with more fights has more members injured (and a higher death rate) and isn't working together at a time of confrontation among groups, I was thinking this would be a disadvantage against groups who cooperate and communicate more effectively and have less conflicts among themselves, even if the cooperative group's individuals are not as strong on average in fighting.


I guess I was envisioning a group of free-love hippie animals, wandering into a bad neighborhood in the forest.

You're right, having better alpha fighters might not help, but then again it might. Lions do it that way, the alpha male defends the pride. But then, the females are cooperative when they hunt, so who knows. I don't know if the female lions have to pleasure each other just to cooperate.

So I'm not really sure I buy the sex-improves-cohesion argument. In my experience sex usually complicates things. People and animals can certainly cooperate and form bonds without sex, especially if it's in the self-interest of the group.

I think Nature just has to err on the side of too much sexuality, because reproduction is paramount. Better too much humping than not enough.

I don't remember from my biology classes if selection happens at the group level, I kinda want to say no, it's an individual thing. The group is composed of individuals who have survived selection.

I can't think of an example where a cohesive, bisexual species has muscled out a splintered, hetero species, but we didn't exactly look at that stuff in school.

Anyway, ignore this disjointed post, I'm a bit bleary after a long day.
"I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline."
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Postby JackRiddler » Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:54 pm

.

Artificial selection is a subset of natural selection, no? There are many examples, with and without intent, of our selecting against or on behalf of whole species with no regard to individual selection. Yeah, we breed species into different forms using individual selection, but that's hardly the whole story. We've exterminated whole species we considered pests or predators, populated the world with those we use as livestock, carried any number of symbiotes, parasites and fellow travellers to success, and wiped out many more by converting their habitats into farmlands, quarries and paved surfaces, or by making their environments toxic. We're in the middle of a great die-off, although its comparable to several others found in the fossil record since the Cambrian.

Am I misunderstanding something about the meaning of "selection on a species level"? Because I'm failing to understand how one could wonder if it really operates.

Moving on to "natural" nature, sudden disasters of every kind have repeatedly selected for and against entire species. It doesn't matter that it's an extreme event outside the gradual pace of individual selection over thousands or millions of years, the impact has been (co-)determinative. The closest current thing on consensus to the whole class of dinosaurs is that all (except a minority of species who evolved into avians and maybe modern reptiles) died out near-simultaneously due to an asteroid impact, which opened new habitats for the evolution of mammals as a class.

We see species (and tribes) displacing other species (and tribes), in the case of many vertebrates by the aware application of force. Groups as wholes displace other groups as wholes from watering holes or food sources, often meaning that the losing groups die out as wholes (with perhaps some of the losers integrated into the winning group). We've concluded our ancestors massacred tribes of other monkeys and apes, oh, and of humans in a process that has continued into written history. Individual variation within the massacred groups made no difference, they and their genomes died as groups.

Again, maybe I'm not understanding the terms, but in that case please explain it to me.

My background is sparse, maybe beginning sophomore. I remember reading two famous books by Darwin and one each by Dawkins, Gould, Wilson and Margulis, plus a bunch of articles by "Third Culture" types debating (mostly on the selfish gene side). So many people could blow me away with superior knowledge - jfshade among them? - but that doesn't mean they'd win a debate with Gould, or say much about what scientists will be concluding in the future.

monster wrote:I guess I was envisioning a group of free-love hippie animals, wandering into a bad neighborhood in the forest.


One could also envision Spartan warriors, but both examples may be irrelevant to most of the animal kingdom.

You're right, having better alpha fighters might not help, but then again it might. Lions do it that way, the alpha male defends the pride. But then, the females are cooperative when they hunt, so who knows. I don't know if the female lions have to pleasure each other just to cooperate.


I don't think anyone's thinking same-sex sexual pleasure is the only source of cohesion, communication or cooperation!

I think Nature just has to err on the side of too much sexuality, because reproduction is paramount. Better too much humping than not enough.


Sounds like a factor! Could be the story. Though I wouldn't put it as "too much" and take it on faith that animals lack that category.

I can't think of an example where a cohesive, bisexual species has muscled out a splintered, hetero species, but we didn't exactly look at that stuff in school.


Not if the teacher had to deal with an Illinois school board!

At any rate, there sure are a lot of "bisexual" species, though again I think "bisexual" is an anthropomorphic, cultural category. For whatever reason hundreds of species have been observed displaying flexibility about giving and receiving non-procreative sexual pleasure, including with individuals of the same sex.

But I'll stop, for what data did I ever gather in this? Besides observing humans, I mean. Dogs constantly sticking their snouts into each others' privates without regard for sex, then breaking out into bark-fests?

.
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Postby JackRiddler » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:24 pm

A possibly relevant article by Gould:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1151

Volume 44, Number 10 · June 12, 1997
Darwinian Fundamentalism
By Stephen Jay Gould

SNIP

We now reach the technical and practical point that sets the ultra-Darwinian research agenda. Natural selection can be observed directly, but only in the unusual circumstances of controlled experiments in laboratories (on organisms with very short generations such as fruit flies) or within simplified and closely monitored systems in nature. Since evolution, in any substantial sense, takes so much time (more than the entire potential history of human observing!), we cannot, except in special circumstances, watch the process in action, and must therefore try to infer causes from results—the standard procedure in any historical science, by the way, and not a special impediment facing evolutionists.

The generally accepted result of natural selection is adaptation—the shaping of an organism's form, function, and behavior to achieve the Darwinian summum bonum of enhanced reproductive success. We must therefore study natural selection primarily from its results—that is, by concentrating on the putative adaptations of organisms. If we can interpret all relevant attributes of organisms as adaptations for reproductive success, then we may infer that natural selection has been the cause of evolutionary change. This strategy of research—the so-called adaptationist program—is the heart of Darwinian biology, and the fervent, singular credo of the ultras.

Since the ultras are fundamentalists at heart, and since fundamentalists generally try to stigmatize their opponents by depicting them as apostates from the one true way, may I state for the record that I (along with all other Darwinian pluralists) do not deny either the existence and central importance of adaptation, or the production of adaptation by natural selection. Yes, eyes are for seeing and feet are for moving. And, yes again, I know of no scientific mechanism other than natural selection with the proven power to build structures of such eminently workable design.

But does all the rest of evolution—all the phenomena of organic diversity, embryological architecture, and genetic structure, for example—flow by simple extrapolation from selection's power to create the good design of organisms? Does the force that makes a functional eye also explain why the world houses more than five hundred thousand species of beetles and fewer than fifty species of priapulid worms? Or why most nucleotides—the linked groups of molecules that build DNA and RNA—in multicellular creatures do not code for any enzyme or protein involved in the construction of an organism? Or why ruling dinosaurs died and subordinate mammals survived to flourish and, along one oddly contingent pathway, to evolve a creature capable of building cities and understanding natural selection?

I do not deny that natural selection has helped us to explain phenomena at scales very distant from individual organisms, from the behavior of an ant colony to the survival of a redwood forest. But selection cannot suffice as a full explanation for many aspects of evolution; for other types and styles of causes become relevant, or even prevalent, in domains both far above and far below the traditional Darwinian locus of the organism. These other causes are not, as the ultras often claim, the product of thinly veiled attempts to smuggle purpose back into biology. These additional principles are as directionless, nonteleological, and materialistic as natural selection itself—but they operate differently from Darwin's central mechanism. In other words, I agree with Darwin that natural selection is "not the exclusive means of modification."

What an odd time to be a fundamentalist about adaptation and natural selection—when each major subdiscipline of evolutionary biology has been discovering other mechanisms as adjuncts to selection's centrality. Population genetics has worked out in theory, and validated in practice, an elegant, mathematical account of the large role that neutral, and therefore nonadaptive, changes play in the evolution of nucleotides, or individual units of DNA programs. Eyes may be adaptations, but most substitutions of one nucleotide for another within populations may not be adaptive.

In the most stunning evolutionary discoveries of our decade, developmental biologists have documented an astonishing "conservation," or close similarity, of basic pathways of development among phyla that have been evolving independently for at least 500 million years, and that seem so different in basic anatomy (insects and vertebrates, for example). The famous homeotic genes of fruit flies—responsible for odd mutations that disturb the order of parts along the main body axis, placing legs, for example, where antennae or mouth parts should be—are also present (and repeated four times on four separate chromosomes) in vertebrates, where they function in effectively the same way. The major developmental pathway for eyes is conserved and mediated by the same gene in squids, flies, and vertebrates, though the end products differ substantially (our single-lens eye vs. the multiple facets of insects). The same genes regulate the formation of top and bottom surfaces in insects and vertebrates, though with inverted order—as our back, with the spinal cord running above the gut, is anatomically equivalent to an insect's belly, where the main nerve cords run along the bottom surface, with the gut above.

One could argue, I suppose, that these instances of conservation only record adaptation, unchanged through all of life's vicissitudes because their optimality can't be improved. But most biologists feel that such stability acts primarily as a constraint upon the range and potentiality of adaptation, for if organisms of such different function and ecology must build bodies along the same basic pathways, then limitation of possibilities rather than adaptive honing to perfection becomes a dominant theme in evolution. At a minimum, in explaining evolutionary pathways through time, the constraints imposed by history rise to equal prominence with the immediate advantages of adaptation.

My own field of paleontology has strongly challenged the Darwinian premise that life's major transformations can be explained by adding up, through the immensity of geological time, the successive tiny changes produced generation after generation by natural selection. The extended stability of most species, and the branching off of new species in geological moments (however slow by the irrelevant scale of a human life)—the pattern known as punctuated equilibrium—requires that long-term evolutionary trends be explained as the distinctive success of some species versus others, and not as a gradual accumulation of adaptations generated by organisms within a continuously evolving population. A trend may be set by high rates of branching in certain species within a larger group. But individual organisms do not branch; only populations do—and the causes of a population's branching can rarely be reduced to the adaptive improvement of its individuals.

The study of mass extinction has also disturbed the ultra-Darwinian consensus....

SNIP
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Postby blonderengel » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:22 pm

Perhaps we can press into service, for the purpose of adding another dimension to this discussion, Tantra and de Sade…some of what follows are merely “minder” notes, something to work out/on in subsequent rounds, or not at all.

Indian religious thinkers were among the first to realize that spirituality is essentially an embodied phenomenon and that embodiment is essentially spiritual. They realized, in other words, that spirit is never found independent of a living body and that a living body is never devoid of spirit. Some went so far as to say that the two are so intertwined that each is but a mode of a single body-mind, a unity that can be seen as either consciousness or as matter, provided that one always bears in mind that both consciousness and matter are artificial constructs, nothing but heuristic models.

As any seasoned meditator knows, the entire body is filled with consciousness, with sensations of various types. For the sake of convenience, one may distinguish them according to bodily location or according to sense organs, and in some contexts making such distinctions may serve some purpose. But even if such distinctions are not made, a meditator becomes thoroughly aware that body and consciousness are so interconnected as to be best felt as a single field of fluid phenomena that cannot accurately be called either solely material or solely spiritual, that cannot be understood at all but can only be experienced as a flow of ever-changing currents.

Some traditions of thought (and they can be found throughout the ancient and the modern world) seek to separate spirit and matter and to give primacy to one or the other. Some Hellenistic thinkers did this, often with the result of privileging soul to such an extent that the body was regarded as a prison, a naturally defiled and intrinsically unpleasant sheath that prevented the soul from fully enjoying its own purity and beauty and freedom. Some neo-Platonists thought this way in the Hellenistic world, and some Brahmans and Jainas and Bauddhas thought this way in India and in East Asia. It is not unusual, when this outlook is adopted, to regard sexuality with deep suspicion, as an essentially material and therefore impure lure that keeps the ignorant soul imprisoned in decadent flesh. Elizabeth Abbot writes about this _A History of Celibacy_. (She also chronicles how celibate movements based on this dualistic view of the relationship of Soul and Matter often, but not always, turn into movements of men given to misogyny and women prone to misandry.)

In contrast to the dualists, soul-body monists tend to celebrate sensuality and sexuality as natural psychophysical forces that can be denied or repressed only at one's peril. Especially those who have loved in this way (such as the Muslim poet Rumi and various Jewish mystics) regard sexuality as the most powerful metaphor available to describe the feeling of unity between self and other, between soul and matter, between creator and creation. The works of such people are filled with soaring lyrical celebration of embodiment, combined with a deep appreciation of the fact that embodiment constantly changes form, leading to what people think of as death, the cessation of one form as it becomes the material out of which another form arises to take its –temporary-- place.

For them, resistance to change (fear of death) becomes the only trap. Mystical poets often celebrate love and sexuality, and in so doing portray the sexual attraction of lovers as a path to the transcendental. No doubt many of them have had this experience, even if they have chosen never to express it in actual sexual union with a lover. When the work of such mystics is popularized, thereby falling into the hands of people who are still preoccupied with selfish and egocentric thoughts, great confusion can result. For this reason, many sexually celebratory traditions (such as tantra in India) have been transmitted only secretly and only to people who have proven to be quite mature and refined and prepared to make good use of the teachings.

--begin rant

Secret traditions, no matter how carefully they are protected, tend to leak, and sooner or later the secrets are no longer confined to the initiated. ("mystic" derives from a classical Greek word meaning someone who has been initiated into a secret, a mystery.) They then cease to be mystical and become public, although usually in grotesquely vulgarized forms. Our own culture, the culture of modernity, has come about as a result of the almost total conquest of refinement by coarse vulgarity. Scraps and traces of once-mystical teachings are now the property of everyone and can be found in casual discussions in bistros, arcade games, Hollywood films, teevee situation comedies, the routines of stand-up comics in smoke-filled taverns, the lyrics of music to which strippers remove their clothes before slobbering men interested in power and pleasure, and even on the bumper stickers of cars. In Indian mythology, this is the kali-yuga, the era of kali, named after the name given to the unlucky throw of the dice that marks the thrower as a loser. We live in the age of losers.

It is a characteristic of the kali-yuga that everything becomes a commodity. Everything is for sale. Everything has a price. Everything becomes a potential source of entertainment; nothing is sacred, and no one is spared a turn in the laughing-stock. In the kali-yuga sex is nothing but a joke, and celibacy is nothing but a joke; spirituality is a joke, religion is a joke, morality is a joke and beauty is a joke--and so are secularism, materialism, wantonness, and ugliness. We are a people conquered by our own frivolity, destroyed by our own shallowness, overpowered by own fundamental lack of respect for ourselves or for anyone else. We have become an angry race of tormented hell beings, incapable of doing anything more creative than mocking one another, taunting one another, blaming one another for our own stupidity and the misfortunes it engenders.

--end rant

I became interested in the parallel between the sexual DISCIPLINE (i.e., the externalization/extension of *thought* in the erotic realm, i.e., masochism) and the ritual
discipline of the imagination itself, *without limits* (Blake is without limits...Coleridge had his limits). This state of being without limits extends into Sadism. The combination of the imaginative discipline without limits (sadism) and the extension of thought/self/ego into the erotic (masochism) give us sadomasochism and its psychological implications. The Marquis de Sade presents acts of being consumed, primarily, with the intellectual imagination (very classically Romantic...only without limit, thus "libertine."). The Libertine's primary motive, in opposition to that of the Romantic Ideal counterpart, is to serve the Self so totally and completely that one actually moves beyond the Self.

In _Philosophy in the Boudoir_, de Sade deploys sodomy as the main figure for an intellectual transcendence through sex. Of course, as always, the prime motivator is a libertine politics, one that kept the Marquis in the Bastille, jailed both by the crown and the Revolution itself (he was taken out of jail and made a judge by the Revolutionaries, but when they discovered he was against capital punishment, they put him right back in). That he's still regarded as dangerously corrupting to many minds is, in my view, a good thing...esp. when those minds argue his works should remain "hidden away on the highest shelf in a family home, and too strong meat for a reading-group discussion."

In arguing for a politics of the Self over Nature, God, or State, de Sade inserts intervals of frenzied, dangerous sex between much longer intervals of libertine philosophy. While the position on women--"that women were born to be fucked"--is arguable as to how we interpret it, his argument in _Philosophy_ is directed at aristocratic propriety, against frigidity *brought on* by propriety--this is demonstrable when the Marquis brings in the hired hand to help the "tutors" educate Eugenie, the Virgin.

While there are no sentimental overtones of the lower class whatsoever (just the opposite in fact), the Marquis seems to indicate that because we all are *capable* of fucking, we all ought to fuck democratically.

But back to sodomy.

Whatever one decides is the Marquis' position on women (which is hard to say in _Philosophy_ because all the characters are typal, none realistic--they all represent only one or two characteristics of the whole human being), can know that, at least in _Philosophy_, the cunt isn't the main hole being used for sex--but the asshole. When Dolmance, the voice of authority and "true libertinage" in the book, says

All men, all women, resemble each other; sane reflection tells us
so. Tis a cruel trick, this intoxication; does it enhance life?
No. Tis a voluntary deprivation of life's joy, a fever or madness.
Perhaps if we were to always love this adorable object, it could be
excused; but how many of these liaisons are in truth eternal? Next
to none.

he is speaking of libertinage in general, but he repeats throughout that the highest form of fucking (and the Madame agrees) is sodomy--and it is the most natural as well, for it helps keep down an already overpopulated nature. Sodomy is also the most sublime as it has men and women "resemble each other", as well as the fact that the asshole is round to fit the cylindrical member, rather than oval-shaped. Dolmance comments

Every time we discover a new continent, we find sodomy there. Were
we to reach the moon, we would doubtless find sodomy there as well!
O delicious predilection, child of Nature and of pleasure, you will
be found wherever men are, and they will erect altars to you!...

[speaking of the sodomist]...This man's nature, once again unlike
that of others, will be softer, more pliant, subtler; in him you
will detect all the vices and virtues native to women, you might
even find their weaknesses there...tis the delight of philosophers,
of heroes, and would be that of the gods, were not the bodily parts
used in this sacred communion the only gods fit for earth to
revere!

The project of the sodomist was the very project of Wallace Stevens--to render a monarchical God nonexistent by defying his order to "go forth and multiply." Furthermore, the sodomist in de Sade is not the homosexual or even the necessarily "feminine"-- he is simply less the brute. Sodomy affords the pleasures of sex without the mad bent toward procreation, without the goal-orientation; it is the pinnacle rite of psychological consumption (as opposed to devouring). The body and the mind, the sex parts and the gods, are in union in this act precisely because there is no longer a mind (purpose) or merely a body (machine to fulfill "purpose"), but an androgynous unit whose ritual is to extend pleasure into purpose. All other things "typical" of a woman or of a man are secondary to the sodomist's act—because the Madame agrees with this act, sodomy is not exclusively a male activity as it is represented in _Philosophy_.

Very much like the Buddhist koan, the practice of the libertine--to not restrict one's self to from *any* experience, even murder--is to actually eradicate the notion of crime itself. Once done, crime will cease to be:

The aspect of crime does not apply; consider: for an action that
serves one by harming to be a crime, it must be shown that the
injured person is more precious to Nature than he who performs
the deed in response to her impulses. Since all individuals are
of equal disinterest to her, she could never favour one above the
other; hence, the deed that serves one by harming another is of
no consequence to Nature whatsoever.

This is a "Negative Hermeneutic" at work: we will probably not kill, not because Nature forbids it or encourages it, but because there is no "natural" barrier to cross, nothing to transgress. Servitude and criminal transgression are boring notions--as well as pity and Brotherhood. But ultimately, to kill is to reduce the possibilities for enjoying oneself.

This becomes the motive for not killing. Psychologically speaking, it is guilt that causes us to repeat the actions that caused the guilt in the first place. Remove guilt, and you remove the motive for most of those actions. (Like pressing on a toothache--remove the tooth and you cease to think about whether you should or should not press on a tooth.)

The final goal of the libertinage of _Philosophy_, for which the pornography fails to be pornography and succeeds in being representations of the mind/the imagination exercising its given *right* to imagine anything it possibly can (which is, as demonstrated by the outrageously large members of the characters, as well as the impossible amount of time spent fucking, always better than the real thing itself)...the final charge in the book is to be *in control*. Interestingly enough, concerning the criticism of the Marquis' view of women, this charge is directed towards the female--

Generally, we recognize two sorts of cruelty: that resulting from
stupidity which, never reasoned, never rationalized [note here
again the eroticization of thought], turns the
thoughtless individual into a ferocious beast. This cruelty can
afford no pleasure...

[thus killing, even without the metaphysical sense of "murder,"
is actually discouraged]

...since he who is inclined to it is incapable of discrimination.
Such a creature's brutalities are seldom dangerous; it is always
a simple matter to find protection against them. The other species
of cruelty, fruit of extreme organic sensitivity [the Marquis has
referred to "female cruelty, which is always more active than the
male, by reason of the excessive sensitivity of woman's organs"...
it is hard to know when he is kidding and not], is known only to
those of an extremely delicate nature; the limits to which it drives
them are determined by intelligence and acuteness of feeling; this
delicacy, so finely wrought, so impressionable, responds best of
all, and without delay, to cruelty; it awakens in cruelty, cruelty
liberates it. ....

....Now, it is a second type of cruelty which you will most often
find in women. Study them well and you will see that it is their
sensitivity that leads them to cruelty; that is it their extremely
active imagination, the sharpness of their intelligence that
renders them criminal and vicious...

The Marquis is not speaking here of the petty imagination often attributed to women, but to the typal imagination itself, the Stevens-like rage to order that the Marquis insists must be liberated in all people. Intelligence, imagination, and the organs of the body are in union here. Of course, "cruelty" itself as it applies in the sadomasochistic text becomes, as does sodomy, a structural figure in itself. "Cruelty" is *any* exercise of the imagination in a world that has confined the imagination to either peasant idiocy or to aristocratic airs. "Cruelty" is a figure in de Sade for the necessary assertion of self-interest--it is an enlightened cruelty, as opposed to the bestial cruelty of the brute, who only uses his body, or even opposed to the mother, who uses none of hers. The rape and torture of the mother at the end of the book is represented as any rape or torture has been represented in a history of religion or mythology, but de Sade exposes the genteel devices that have been used to mask the visceral, the physical potential of those myths.

Notice the puns:
Eugenie: Come, come, Mama dearest; quiet now, it’s done.

Dolmance: [Emerging with an enormous erection from Madame
de Saint-Ange's hands] Eugenie, allow me to see
to the hag's arse; that portal belongs to me.

Madame de Saint-Ange: You 're too maladroit, Dolmance, you'll make a martyr of her.

Finally, de Sade uses the perverse as the *only* arena in which the perverse strategies of the moralist can be exposed:

...never mistresses, always whores; scorning love, worshiping pure pleasure.

The mistress is tucked away and used for sex, usually in a sickly, "polite" context--like the word itself. The whore, however, is the unhidden, the one who fucks by choice, who refuses to be within her society's boundaries--as is the "mistress". The "tutoring" of the virgin Eugenie in fact is made plain--she goes from being a virgin to a whore in one day, without the degrading process of social normalization and maritalization--without being owned either by her society or her husband. Once the imagination is exposed to the limits, there is no going back for her.
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Postby slomo » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:14 pm

Keep in mind that not all of biology is driven deterministically by genetics. "Epiphenomena" can occur, wherein systemic structure emerges just by the dynamics of interacting subsystems. This occurs at every level, from the cellular up to the ecological.

Thus, homosexual behavior could emerge structurally, independently in every vertebrate species, simply by "chance". Here, by "chance", I mean that happenstance sexual activity between members of the same species confers a social benefit that gets propagated over time, and then the activity becomes structurally ingrained. Of course, there may be genetic or epigenetic factors that favor the probability of happenstance homosexual activity (e.g. relative testosterone levels). Interestingly, if there is epigenetic regulation of gene expression (say of certain hormones), those could be programmed in response to population density. Thus, homosexuality *could* be epigenetically determined in response to overshoot.
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Postby JackRiddler » Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:59 am

Now this was a lot more fun than some other threads I could name.

slomo's post very, very interesting!

Hope to see more from each of you.
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Re: Every Vertebrate Is Just a Little Bit Gay

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:41 pm

NY Times gets on board with it:

Can Animals Be Gay?

Obviously not. Nor can they be straight. They're animals. They're unlikely to have such categories.

But taking the question straight: Can The NY Times Editors Be Denser?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/magaz ... f=homepage

JON MOOALLEM in NYT wrote:
...

A discovery like Young’s can disorient a wildlife biologist in the most thrilling way — if he or she takes it seriously, which has traditionally not been the case. Various forms of same-sex sexual activity have been recorded in more than 450 different species of animals by now, from flamingos to bison to beetles to guppies to warthogs. A female koala might force another female against a tree and mount her, while throwing back her head and releasing what one scientist described as “exhalated belchlike sounds.” Male Amazon River dolphins have been known to penetrate each other in the blowhole. Within most species, homosexual sex has been documented only sporadically, and there appear to be few cases of individual animals who engage in it exclusively. For more than a century, this kind of observation was usually tacked onto scientific papers as a curiosity, if it was reported at all, and not pursued as a legitimate research subject. Biologists tried to explain away what they’d seen, or dismissed it as theoretically meaningless — an isolated glitch in an otherwise elegant Darwinian universe where every facet of an animal’s behavior is geared toward reproducing. One primatologist speculated that the real reason two male orangutans were fellating each other was nutritional.

In recent years though, more biologists have been looking objectively at same-sex sexuality in animals — approaching it as real science. For Young, the existence of so many female-female albatross pairs disproved assumptions that she didn’t even realize she’d been making and, in the process, raised a chain of progressively more complicated questions. One of the prickliest, it seemed, was how a scientist is even supposed to talk about any of this, given how eager the rest of us have been to twist the sex lives of animals into allegories of our own. “This colony is literally the largest proportion of — I don’t know what the correct term is: ‘homosexual animals’? — in the world,” Young told me. “Which I’m sure some people think is a great thing, and others might think is not.”

It was a guarded understatement. Two years ago, Young decided to write a short paper with two colleagues on the female-female albatross pairs. “We were pretty careful in the original article to plainly and simply report what we found,” she said. “It’s definitely a little bit of a tricky subject, and one you want to be gentle on.” But the journal that published the paper, Biology Letters, sent out a press release a few days after the California Supreme Court legalized gay marriage. At 6 the next morning, a Fox News reporter called Young on her cellphone. The resulting story joined others, including one in this paper, and as the news ricocheted around the Internet, a stampede of online commenters alternately celebrated Young’s findings as a clear call for equality or denigrated them as “pure propaganda and selective science at its dumbest” and “an effort to humanize animals or devolve humans to the level of animals or to further an agenda.” Many pointed out that animals also rape or eat their young; was America going to tolerate that too, just because it’s “natural”?

A Denver-based publication for gay parents welcomed any and all new readers from “the extensive lesbian albatross parent community.” The conservative Oklahoma senator Tom Coburn highlighted Young’s paper on his Web site, under the heading “Your Tax Dollars at Work,” even though her study of the female-female pairs was not actually federally financed. Stephen Colbert warned on Comedy Central that “albatresbians” were threatening American family values with their “Sappho-avian agenda.” A gay rights advocate e-mailed Young, asking her to fly a rainbow flag above each female-female nest, to identify them and show solidarity. Even now, the first thing everyone wants to know from Young — sometimes the only thing — is, what do these lesbian albatrosses say about us?

“I don’t answer that question,” she told me.

SNIP - goes for another 10 pages

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Re: Every Vertebrate Is Just a Little Bit Gay

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:48 pm

This, on attitudes and mental blocks about this in the science community, is very good:

JON MOOALLEM in NYT wrote:
...

Then she genetically sexed every bird at Kaena Point. “Where it wasn’t totally clear, or I worried that maybe I mixed up the sample, I actually went back into the field and took new blood samples to do it again,” Young told me. In the end, she genetically sexed the birds in her lab four times, just to be sure. She found that 39 of the 125 nests at Kaena Point since 2004 belonged to female-female pairs, including more than 20 nests in which she’d never noticed a supernormal clutch. It seemed that certain females were somehow finding opportunities to quickly copulate with males but incubating their eggs — and doing everything else an albatross does while at the colony — with other females.

Young gave a talk about these findings at an international meeting of Pacific-seabird researchers. “There was a lot of murmuring in the room,” she remembers. “Then, afterward, people were coming up to me and saying: ‘We see supernormal clutches all the time. We assumed it was a male and a female.’ And I’d say: ‘Yeah? Well, you might want to look into that.’ ” Recently, journals have asked her to confidentially peer-review new papers about other species, describing similar discoveries. “I can’t say which species,” she explains, “but my guess is, in the next year, we’re going to see a lot more examples of this.”

It may seem surprising that scientists sometimes don’t know the true sexes of the animals they spend their careers studying — that they can be tripped up in some “Tootsie” -like farce for so long. But it’s easy to underestimate the pandemonium that they’re struggling to interpret in the wild. Often, biologists are forced to assign sexes to animals by watching what they do when they mate. When one albatross or boar or cricket rears up and mounts a second, it would seem to be advertising the genders of both. Unless, of course, that’s not the situation at all.

“There is still an overall presumption of heterosexuality,” the biologist Bruce Bagemihl told me. “Individuals, populations or species are considered to be entirely heterosexual until proven otherwise.” While this may sound like a reasonable starting point, Bagemihl calls it a “heterosexist bias” and has shown it to be a significant roadblock to understanding the diversity of what animals actually do. In 1999, Baghemihl published “Biological Exuberance,” a book that pulled together a colossal amount of previous piecemeal research and showed how biologists’ biases had marginalized animal homosexuality for the last 150 years — sometimes innocently enough, sometimes in an eruption of anthropomorphic disgust. Courtship behaviors between two animals of the same sex were persistently described in the literature as “mock” or “pseudo” courtship — or just “practice.” Homosexual sex between ostriches was interpreted by one scientist as “a nuisance” that “goes on and on.” One man, studying Mazarine Blue butterflies in Morocco in 1987, regretted having to report “the lurid details of declining moral standards and of horrific sexual offenses” which are “all too often packed” into national newspapers. And a bighorn-sheep biologist confessed in his memoir, “I still cringe at the memory of seeing old D-ram mount S-ram repeatedly.” To think, he wrote, “of those magnificent beasts as ‘queers’ — Oh, God!”
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Re: Every Vertebrate Is Just a Little Bit Gay

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:51 pm

Now here's a guy who didn't get his uggins:

Mooallem wrote:The Yale ornithologist Richard Prum told me: “Our field is a lot like economics: we have a core of theory, like free-market theory, where we have the invisible hand of the market creating order — all commodities attain exactly the price they’re worth. Homosexuality is a tough case, because it appears to violate that central tenet, that all of sexual behavior is about reproduction. The question is, why would anyone invest in sexual behavior that isn’t reproductive?” –— much less a behavior that looks to be starkly counterproductive. Moreover, if animals carrying the genes associated with it are less likely to reproduce, how has that behavior managed to stick around?


It's an investment? Oh you poor poor man.
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Re: Every Vertebrate Is Just a Little Bit Gay

Postby Laodicean » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:05 pm

Gay geese and other facts -We all need to find safe spaces to be ourselves.

by Elsie Hambrook for the Moncton Times and Transcript
Dateline: Monday, March 22, 2010

Tell me the status of women in your society or organization, and I'll tell you the status of gay persons.

Women reduce homophobia, as the Institute for Sexual Minority Health puts it. The Institute's Bill Ryan, who grew up in Moncton and gave sessions here recently, is an internationally recognized expert on sexuality and sexual orientation. He was awarded the Martin Luther King Jr. Legacy award by the Mayor of Montreal and the US Consul General in Montreal for his work in advancing human rights.

In Canada geese, 18 percent of males and six to 12 percent of females are in lifelong, monogamous same-sex relationships.

Ryan has no trouble seeing the connection between the advancement of women in society and acceptance of gay rights. Not only do women generally tend to be less homophobic, but women's standing in a given country is often indicative of the nation's stance towards gays and lesbians.

Churches that ordain women are likely to also be the ones that accept gays and lesbians, while churches that maintain that only men can minister do not. In countries that openly discriminate against marginalized populations, discussions of homosexuality are not even possible. Often, the topic of women's advancement is more palatable, and paves the way for future conversations that broach the subject of lesbians and gays.

Ryan stresses that much of the work we have to do in Canada in terms of eradicating homophobia is in the school system. "If school had been different . . ." is a common refrain heard from adult gays, lesbians and bisexuals.

An extraordinary amount of effort is spent during these years, if not later as well, on trying to pass as straight. Adolescence is a very vulnerable time in life, one in which there is an increased likelihood of attempted suicide, as well as high drop-out rates, amongst gays. These issues are especially pronounced at schools where homophobia is not addressed.

The "I am who I am" awareness kit about sexual orientation, produced by a group of psychologists and social workers in the Acadian Peninsula to help teachers deal with the subject, provides testimonials from New Brunswickers on this subject.

"Julie" says the realization that one is gay is an important moment in one's life but it shouldn't be. "Our entire life should not revolve around that. I am not only a lesbian, I have other qualities. . . I went through extremely difficult teenage years — not so much because I was a lesbian but because of what that meant at the time. . . The hardest thing I had to do was tell the first person."

We should educate our children in respect and acceptance at home and at school, and pay more attention to expanding our idea of gender roles.

Ryan makes the point that forcing boys to "walk this tight rope of masculinity" is unhealthy and that they should be allowed to play with whatever toys they choose — whether they prefer running trucks through the mud, or playing at nurturing with dolls.

The expansion of gender roles is a key concept in both gay rights and feminist movements.

More flexible conceptions of what is feminine and masculine, however, not only benefit women and gays, but society. The overwhelming majority of violent offenders are men, and, as Ryan points out, this could be linked to the "suffocating gender role" they must fulfill.

In fact, it is fascinating to see how often the importance of reducing homophobia comes up when working on violence issues.

For example, when anti-violence groups list "things men can do to prevent gender violence," often one key action is to speak out against homophobia and gay bashing.

The strict notions that boys are tough and men are in charge play a role in perpetuating both the hostility towards homosexual persons and violence against women — by creating a toxic environment in which violence is able to take place.

As the poster from White Ribbon, the Canadian men's group working to end violence against women, puts it: "Did you ever notice that the worst thing you can call a man is a woman?"

Progress has already been made in expanding the roles of women and men mostly thanks to the women's rights movement. Academic study has helped too.

One popular argument — that homosexuality is absent in the animal kingdom and, therefore, clearly unnatural — has been disproved by science. Actually, evidence shows that various animal species not only have same-sex sexual behaviours, but any species that has lifelong monogamous partnerships also has same sex lifelong monogamous partnerships. For instance, in Canada geese, 18 percent of males and six to 12 percent of females are in lifelong, monogamous same-sex relationships.

Science has continued to be inconclusive regarding the "cause" of homosexuality. The Institute for Sexual Minority Health compares it to left-handedness in the population: we know how it works, but can't predict incidents of it or understand why it occurs. In fact, searching for a "cause" of homosexuality is problematic — it positions homosexuality as something that is not naturally occurring, an illness that should be addressed.

All the science and reason in the world won't change some people's minds. Sometimes, it takes a personal experience. The single biggest attitude changer for people is the experience of knowing someone gay. The change from gay people being "those people" to "my son, my aunt or my friend" is incredibly transformative.

Sexism and discrimination based on sexual orientation are closely linked. So are the solutions to end this hatred of the "other."
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Re: Every Vertebrate Is Just a Little Bit Gay

Postby Simulist » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:17 pm

Excellent, excellent article, Laodicean. Homosexuality is a completely natural form of sexual expression — not only in humans, but also in various other animal species.

As the article points out, the sorts of people who don't like gays aren't often too fond of women, either. Homophobes and misogynists should be given free t-shirts: "I'm with stupid."
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
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Re: Every Vertebrate Is Just a Little Bit Gay

Postby JackRiddler » Thu May 10, 2012 9:23 am

Relevance!

Long as "gay" is again a topic on RI, and long as we were having a discussion in this thread about evolution, here's an interesting article. I shall not copy-paste the whole interview but just the top and the key parts on the paradigm shift itself, in Shapiro's view. Go to the link to catch all the interesting politics they also discuss...


http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/05/07/ ... hift/print

May 07, 2012

An Interview With James Shapiro
The Evolution Paradigm Shift


by SUZAN MAZUR

“Given the exemplary status of biological evolution, we can anticipate that a paradigm shift in our understanding of that subject will have repercussions far outside the life sciences. . . . How such an evolutionary paradigm shift will play out in the physical and social sciences remains to be seen. But it is possible to predict that the cognitive (psychological) and social sciences will have an increased influence on biology, especially when it comes to the acquisition and processing of information.”

–James A. Shapiro, Evolution: A View from the 21st Century

I called University of Chicago microbiologist James Shapiro, who’s now also blogging on HuffPost about science, to arrange an interview after noticing that we’d both recently been bashed by Darwinist Jerry Coyne in the same column. I reached Shapiro at home. He was engaging, although he described himself as a “reclusive person” — which he says he finds key to serious thinking. The commotion was over Shapiro’s book: Evolution: A View from the 21st Century since Coyne, also a University of Chicago professor, has an evolution text he’d like to keep relevant. I decided to have a look at Shapiro’s book and see exactly why Coyne was agitated.

SNIP


And now Shapiro on his findings and hypotheses:


James Shapiro: I became interested in biology as an undergraduate. The topic of evolution just kept coming up. As a research student at Cambridge, when I began to focus on mutagenesis, evolution was again right there because mutation was the source of the raw material of evolution. My first big lesson in evolutionary science was that the mutations I was studying in bacteria were unexpected and unpredicted. People had actually missed them because they accepted the current version of mutations just as point mutations. Here was something quite different. Pieces of DNA inserting themselves in the genome.

Later, I found unexpectedly that starvation triggers a big increase in DNA rearrangements. I also observed some genome changes occurring in patterns in bacterial colonies. All of that gave me a lively interest in evolutionary subjects.


On paradigm shifts (Kuhn).

James Shapiro: I would say research based on theories that will be superceded is inevitable. I was quite struck when I read Thomas Kuhn who understood that. I was sitting by a swimming pool in the Dominican Republic at a meeting on plasmids and he was writing about 18th century chemistry and physics. As I was reading I was saying to myself — “Wow, that’s the way biology operates today.”

Kuhn captured something very quintessentially human about the scientific enterprise: that you inevitably never capture nature as it is. You only capture a portion of it that you can figure out and theorize about. And you go on exploring that portion of nature. For some period of time the explorations are extremely productive. But over time and as technology develops, partly as a consequence of what the scientific enterprise is doing, new phenomena come up and can’t be explained any longer in the same way. In the end there are always a group of people who defend the existing belief system more than is justified by the empirical observations.

Tension arises between those who say the empirical observations are telling us something different and those who defend the intellectual framework which led to those empirical observations. I am not immune to being unable to appreciate where new approaches can lead. For example, I was one of the people who initially thought genome sequencing was just an excuse for using technology without any idea of what we were going to find. I believed that people had run out of useful ideas for experimental biology and were doing DNA sequencing as a substitute. I was totally wrong about that. It turned out that sequencing has been extraordinarily revealing and far from a waste of time. No matter what kind of ideas lay behind it, it’s opened up a treasure trove of new ways of thinking about genomes and DNA in evolution.

So the answer to your question about the money is that money is always being spent based on ideas which are ultimately going to prove fallible. As I put it in a blog, if Newton couldn’t get it right, what hope is there for the rest of us? But it’s not a waste of time and money as long as the research is based on real empirical science, because the observations then lead to a more sophisticated way of thinking about things.


Suzan Mazur: So is science now without an acceptable explanation as to how evolution happened?

James Shapiro: No I don’t think so. We see bits and pieces of the whole process. Certainly we have paleontological evidence. We have the comparative biology. It started off as comparative anatomy but it’s gone much farther than that, of course. All of this tells us about relationships. And now we have the genome evidence, which solidifies our view in the evolutionary relationships. It complicates the picture, but it adds an element — which is the one I’ve been focusing on — the process of genome change itself that is critical. That is what I call “natural genetic engineering.”


His book.

Image

The production of the book was fine. The book cover is striking. I found that picture of the mimetic moth. FTPress wanted to put an iguana on the cover. I said an iguana was too traditional. Theirs was a beautiful iguana, but it was still an iguana. And I thought the moth would say a lot more than the iguana about some of the mysteries that need
to be explained in evolution.

The moth cover was ultimately chosen because the kind of exquisite mimicry it represents is an evolutionary puzzle.

How does that come about? I think gradualist explanations are difficult to sustain in the case of mimicry. Recently it’s been discovered that there are master control regions, sort of like Hox complexes but more complicated, that control wing patterns in butterflies. I suspect as people analyze those we’ll know more about how the mimetic patterns evolved.

The book hasn’t been reviewed by any of the major journals yet. Nature and Science have not reviewed it. The National Center for Science Education is reviewing it in June. I’m interested to see whether they want to show that evolution science is alive and doing novel and controversial things.


The gist of his theoretical thinking:


James Shapiro: There are three components there.

(1) As I say in the book, cells do not act blindly. We know from physiology and biochemistry and molecular biology that cells are full of receptors. They monitor what goes on outside. They monitor what goes on inside. And they’re continually taking in that information and using it to adjust their actions, their biochemistry, their
metabolism, the cell cycle, etc. so that things come out right. That’s why I use the word cognitive to apply to cells, meaning they do things based on knowledge of what’s happening around them and inside of them. Without that knowledge and the systems to use that knowledge they couldn’t proliferate and survive as efficiently as they do.

(2) We’ve learned a great deal about hereditary variation through molecular genetics studies. I was personally involved in this back in the late 60s and 70s and since then we’ve learned about a wide variety of biochemical systems that cells use to restructure their genomes as an active process. Genome change is not the result of accidents. If you have accidents and they’re not fixed, the cells die. It’s in the course of fixing damage or responding to damage or responding to other inputs — in the case I studied, it was starvation — that cells turn on the systems they have for restructuring their genomes. So what we have is something different from accidents and mistakes as a source of genetic change. We have what I call “natural genetic engineering.” Cells are acting on their own genomes in a large variety of well-defined non-random ways to bring about change.

This is consistent with what Barbara McClintock first discovered in the 30s when she was studying chromosome repair and then later in the 40s when her experiments uncovered transposable elements. All of these natural genetic engineering systems are regulated or sensitive to biological inputs. That sensitivity is what we’ve learned about cell regulation in general. As I say, cells don’t act blindly, and they don’t act blindly when they change their genomes.

(3) So if genetic change is not a series of accidents and not a series of necessarily small changes, then how does it work out in evolution? That’s where the DNA record from genome sequencing comes in and confirms what many of us had argued for a long time: namely, all of these systems of genetic change, of natural genetic engineering, have played a major role in evolutionary change. We have a new view of how cells operate in evolution, which is much more information technology friendly.

I think the first blog I put out was quoting a December 2011 paper where they went through the human genome using the 29 mammalian genomes that had recently been aligned. The authors concluded that, at a minimum, there were 280,000 different components, defined functional elements in the genome, that came from mobile genetic elements.

The point is that natural genetic engineering systems have played major roles in evolutionary change. We also see in the DNA record that evolutionary change has not just been a slow accumulation of random changes.

A good way of summarizing this is to compare the genome to storage systems in computers. The conventional view is that the genome is a read-only memory (ROM) system that changes only by copying errors. Incorporating what we have learned at the biochemical level about the cellular and molecular processes of DNA change, we can formulate a fundamentally different view. The contemporary idea is that the genome is a read-write (RW) storage system that changes by direct cell activity. How cell control circuits guide that change activity is the scientific issue of the moment.

Suzan Mazur: So what the gene is, how it first appeared and when are an old way of thinking about things.

James Shapiro: The gene first appeared at the beginning of the 20th century with the rediscovery of Mendelism. Gregor Mendel called them factors, which is fine because it’s nondescript. Then Wilhelm Johannsen came up with the term “gene.” And over time the gene became endowed with a whole bunch of properties. There’s a 1948 Scientific American article by George Beadle in which he called the gene the basic unit of life.

Suzan Mazur: I mean in evolutionary time. This thinking that the gene arrived at some point in the emergence of life. It seems to be an old way of thinking now because the definition of the gene has become much more ambiguous.

James Shapiro: When three scientists rediscovered Mendelism at the turn of the century, in 1900, breeders started seeing discrete hereditary differences that could be passed on from generation to generation. And so the idea that you could have a particulate or atomistic view of the genotype built up, and then the individual components were called genes.

We now have a more sophisticated understanding of hereditary. You’ve got an integrated, super-sophisticated storage system called the genome. You can’t just try and reduce it to any one of its components.

I don’t use the word “gene” because it’s misleading.
There was a time when we were studying the rules of Mendelian heredity when it could be useful, but that time was almost a hundred years ago now.

The way I like to think of cells and genomes is that there are no “units.” There are just systems all the way down. This idea came to me unexpectedly in conversation during a visit to give a lecture at Michigan State. A colleague said that his goal was to discover the basic units in the genome. Without thinking about it consciously, I responded, “What if there are no units?” At that moment, I realized that this answer was something I had been thinking about for a long time.

There have been lots of surprises and lots of discoveries along the way to a systems view of the genome: coding sequences being broken up into exons and introns, non-coding sequences which serve as signals for expression of coding sequences, different ways of reading the coding sequences, and so forth. When you have all of that complexity in genome expression, you no longer can give any kind of simple unitary definition of what you mean by a particular piece of the genome.

With George Beadle and Edward Tatum in the 1940s, you had the one gene-one enzyme hypothesis. It was thought that we could say definitively that the business of “genes” is to determine the structure of proteins. But now we have all of this so-called ”noncoding” information in the genome. In our own human genomes, “non-coding” sequences greatly exceeds the the protein coding capacity. A lot of that “non-coding” DNA is clearly functional and very important for genome action. So we’re beginning to develop a far more sophisticated idea of what a genome is and how it operates. That’s all a part of bringing evolutionary science into the 21st century.

Suzan Mazur: But how far back in time would you say were cells talking to one another without genetic systems, i.e., programs?

James Shapiro: I think I make it explicit in the book that we don’t have enough knowledge yet of how cells came into being in the first place.

Suzan Mazur: When do you anticipate that might become more clear?

James Shapiro: We need to understand how the cells that exist today operate. That’s going to require another shift in our thinking because we have a very mechanical, again a very atomistic view of that.

We don’t yet understand how cells and organisms are integrated functionally and informationally. When we understand that integration, then we’ll have a better idea than we do right now of what the basic requirements are for life and for reproduction.

I expect there will also be technological changes in paleochemistry aiding the search for traces of early life. We don’t have this right now. It’s possible we may never have it. On the other hand, science always amazes us with what it’s able to find. I don’t want to be in a position to say we can’t work something out scientifically because very often we do succeed in unexpected ways.

Suzan Mazur: When did multicelluarity first happen?

James Shapiro: At the first cell division. Life for as long as we know it has been multicellular. The single celled organism is — not exclusively, but by and large — a synthetic construct devised partly to analyze how cells operate and partly as a consequence of Koch’s postulates and the germ theory of disease. In studying bacterial pathogenesis, the emphasis was on isolating a pure culture from a single cell. But in nature very few cells exist isolated from other cells.

Suzan Mazur: When do you think evolution began? How do you think about it?

James Shapiro: This is part of what I think is a new understanding of what it takes to be alive. I would include the ability to change as a fundamental feature of living organisms, as a basic vital function.

Suzan Mazur: Are we including pre-biotic evolution?

James Shapiro: There are people who want to speculate about pre-biotic evolution. I don’t think we can talk about it in a serious scientific way.

Suzan Mazur: Interesting.

James Shapiro: I think we need to come to terms with the biology that exists in front of us before we’re able to speculate about what might have preceded it. And I think we’re very far from being finished with that enterprise.

Suzan Mazur: So you must have some interesting things to say about astrobiology.

James Shapiro: I don’t have anything interesting to say about astrobiology.


Summing up:

Suzan Mazur: Would you wrap up your view of 21st Century evolution and where we’re headed?

James Shapiro: We have the three components, which are:

(1) Cells act in what I call a cognitive way or an information processing way. Some people like to say “computational.” The only reason that I don’t use the word computational is that it doesn’t include the sensory aspect of how cells operate. And the sensing and it’s molecular bases are all very firmly established scientifically. There’s no question about it.

What we don’t understand is how everything is integrated, how the information is processed and how the cells end up doing the appropriate thing. We know a lot about the components involved in signal transfer and decision-making, but we don’t know how the whole system works. That I think is the key frontier in the 21st century. The research will not only impact biology, but it will possibly revolutionize computation as well.

(2) Cells engineer their own genomes and they do it in a wide variety of ways that are subject to sensory inputs and which can be targeted within the genome. I document that pretty extensively in the book.

(3) We know from the DNA record that natural genetic engineering systems have been important in the evolution of new life forms.

The key questions that I see in evolution science besides learning more about those three components are:

(i) What is the link between ecological change and genome change in organisms?

(ii) What is it about the natural genetic engineering processes and how they are regulated and controlled that biases them towards creating new functionalities?

We know we can stimulate rapid genome change in the laboratory by starving cells, or putting them under pressure or in high salt and other stress conditions. Similarly, by manipulating their genomes the way McClintock did so they don’t operate normally. Or by hybridizing, as in horticulture, having different species mate or different populations mate. All of those things will trigger very significant episodes of genome restructuring. And we know genome restructuring has played a role in evolution and evolution is marked by the appearance of biological functional innovations.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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