Thread for Mormon discussion

[operator kos]

One on one and as they so happen to be your suburban neighbors growing up -- Mormons are the friendliest, smartest and best looking people on Earth. They really are extremely smart and always usually very intrinsically attractive people. I've never been able to figure any of that out. Perhaps they are the chosen.

Have to disagree. One of the ones of canvassed me had clearly gotten the short end of the genetic stick in just about every way.

[brekin]

I remember hearing in the past that Utah had the highest bankruptcy rate before the downturn. Supposedly because Mormons have such large families and try to still have the typical American consumption lifestyle. (Interestingly because most Mormon families I have known seem geared towards more the frozen juice concentrate\Jello-O lifestyle.)

Googling it this Mormon wiki addresses it. I don't know enough on the matter either way to weigh in on their conclusion:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Statistical_cl ... te_in_Utah

Question

Is it true that Utah has the highest personal bankruptcy rate in the United States? If so, what does this say about Mormon attitudes toward wealth and materialism?
Answer

Yes, Utah's personal bankruptcy rate is the highest in U.S. According to an August 2002 Associated Press article:[1]

Utah residents are more likely to file for bankruptcy than residents of any other state, according to a financial research organization.

During the year ending March 31 [2002], roughly one of every 35 Utah households filed for bankruptcy, according to the American Bankruptcy Institute, a Virginia-based research organization. That far outpaced the national average of one for every 69 households.

However, the reasons for this are complex, as the article went on to explain:

There's no simple explanation, financial experts say.

Some point to obvious factors: Utah's per-capita income ranks 45th in the nation. Its families, many of them part of the Mormon faith, are larger than those in other states. The job market is weak. The cost of living is relatively high.

The state is also the nation's youngest — the median age is 27.1, compared to 35.3 nationally — and its birth rate is the highest. That means fewer workers are supporting more people.

Experts say it may be that people in Utah are living closer to the financial edge, so they struggle when hard times or a crisis arrives.

"Most of the time, the problem arises not because of wild consumerism, but because something really bad happens," said Darren Bush, an economist and law professor at the University of Utah.

And while Utah may have the highest bankruptcy rate, nationwide the overall rate is climbing, according to the article:

Utah may be hardest hit, but it is hardly alone. A record 1.5 million people filed for bankruptcy in the United States the past year. Filings for the second quarter of 2002 were also a record: more than 400,000, the most ever, according to the American Bankruptcy Institute.

Bush noted that irresponsible spending and over-reliance on credit cards contribute to financial distress.

"Utahns don't save, just like the rest of the nation doesn't save. The first line of defense is credit cards," Bush said.

Mormons less likely to file for bankruptcy

According to a 2007 study published in the Suffolk University Law Review:

Cultural characteristics often attributed to Mormons and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not account for Utah's bankruptcy rates. In fact, certain aspects of this culture, such as [Church] employment services and [Church] welfare, may even be shielding Mormons from the full brunt of Utah's current bankruptcy environment.[2]

In a Deseret News interview with the study's authors, one of them noted:

Our findings show that all Utahns, including Mormons, are suffering from an enormous bankruptcy glut, but Mormons are not experiencing it any more than any other Utahn. Our data reveal that in Utah non-Mormons are 4.6 percent more likely than their Mormon counterparts to find themselves in bankruptcy court.[3]

Counsel of LDS Church leaders

The advice and teaching of LDS general authorities has been consistent since the foundation of the Church: Latter-day Saints should get out of debt and stay out of debt. In October 2001 General Conference, President Gordon B. Hinckley taught:

The economy is particularly vulnerable. We have been counseled again and again concerning self-reliance, concerning debt, concerning thrift. So many of our people are heavily in debt for things that are not entirely necessary. When I was a young man, my father counseled me to build a modest home, sufficient for the needs of my family, and make it beautiful and attractive and pleasant and secure. He counseled me to pay off the mortgage as quickly as I could so that, come what may, there would be a roof over the heads of my wife and children. I was reared on that kind of doctrine. I urge you as members of this Church to get free of debt where possible and to have a little laid aside against a rainy day. We cannot provide against every contingency. But we can provide against many contingencies.[4]

Utah's high bankruptcy rate can be blamed, in part, on the failure of some Latter-day Saints to heed prophetic counsel.

Elder Dallin H. Oaks also cautioned members of the Church against the lures of materialism and "get-rich-quick" schemes:

Some have charged that modern Latter-day Saints are peculiarly susceptible to the gospel of success and the theology of prosperity. According to this gospel, success in this world—particularly entrepreneurial success—is an essential ingredient of progress toward the celestial kingdom. According to this theology, success and prosperity are rewards for keeping the commandments, and a large home and an expensive car are marks of heavenly favor. Those who make this charge point to the apparent susceptibility of Utahns (predominantly Latter-day Saints) to the speculative proposals of various get-rich-quick artists. They claim that many Utahns are gullible and overeager for wealth.

Certainly, Utah has had many victims of speculative enterprises. For at least a decade there have been a succession of frauds worked by predominantly Mormon entrepreneurs upon predominantly Mormon victims. Stock manipulations; residential mortgage financings; gold, silver, diamonds, uranium, and document investments; pyramid schemes—all have taken their toll upon the faithful and gullible. Whether inherently too trusting or just naively overeager for a shortcut to the material prosperity some see as the badge of righteousness, some Latter-day Saints are apparently too vulnerable to the lure of sudden wealth.

Objective observers differ on whether Latter-day Saints are more susceptible to get-rich-quick proposals than other citizens. However that may be, it is disturbing that there is no clear evidence that Latter-day Saints are less susceptible. Men and women who have heard and taken to heart the scriptural warnings against materialism should not be vulnerable to the deceitfulness of riches and the extravagant blandishments of its promoters.[5]

Conclusion

Utah's high bankruptcy rate is not explained by the large numbers of LDS members in Utah. All things being equal, being LDS reduces the risk of filing for bankruptcy. Critics who point to Utah's bankruptcy rate in order to condemn the Church are not portraying the data honestly.

[MinM]

What other religion owns an entire state?

The autonomy of Utah was no doubt aided by the now junior Senator of Utah, Bob Bennett, wresting control of the Hughes Empire away from Bob Maheu...

That has to be the 'gift' that keeps on giving.

[freemason9]

when a mormon dies, their finely tuned machinery quickly engages and they adeptly absorb the estate. they know estate law and practices extremely well.

[SanDiegoBuffGuy]

"Extremely smart"?

Do you know what they believe about the ancient Americas? It has no basis in fact whatsoever.

[justdrew]

If You Could Hie To Kolob

1. If you could hie to Kolob
In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward
With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning,
Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation,
Where Gods and matter end?
Methinks the Spirit whispers,
"No man has found 'pure space,'
Nor seen the outside curtains,
Where nothing has a place."

3. The works of God continue,
And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression
Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter;
There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit;
There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;
There is no end to might;
There is no end to wisdom;
There is no end to light.
There is no end to union;
There is no end to youth;
There is no end to priesthood;
There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.
There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob

[nathan28]

"Extremely smart"?

Do you know what they believe about the ancient Americas? It has no basis in fact whatsoever.

Hey, have you heard about this imaginary thing called "god"?

[Laodicean]

Hey, have you heard about this imaginary thing called "god"?

And "Big Love"?

It's real, man. It's on my TV...

[Simulist]

"Extremely smart"?

Do you know what they believe about the ancient Americas? It has no basis in fact whatsoever.

Hey, have you heard about this imaginary thing called "god"?

If God exists, I would be amazed to discover such a being trifling with religion.

[Etidorhpa]

like i said before, take a dash of the royal arch and add a sprinkle of plagiarism,charlatanism ,space gods and epic battles ,and so mote you have a new empire.

[MinM]

Brigham Young (1940)

THE SCREEN IN REVIEW; 'Brigham Young--Frontiersman' Opens at the Roxy --'Pastor Hall,' at the Globe

By BOSLEY CROWTHER
Published: September 21, 1940

With a great deal more solemnity and respect than was generally accorded him by his contemporaries, Twentieth Century-Fox has pictured for posterity an epic phase in the life of "Brigham Young—Frontiersman," and in the film of that name, which arrived at the Roxy yesterday, has cast in his true heroic mold this moat famous of Mormon elders. The Mosaic rather than the more familiar sultanic aspect of his life has been reverently treated upon by the great leader's screen biographers, and the fervor of his high moral convictions has been insistently stressed throughout.

Reluctantly, then, we must state that the picture is much more tedious than Brigham's life must have been. Certainly there was more excitement and general liveliness in a community overrun with plural wives (not to mention mothers-in-law) than is indicated in the film. For pretty close to two hours the picture rumbles ponderously across the screen, groaning under the weight of much patient suffering on the part of all. And, in spite of its studied effort to point a parallel between the wanderings of the oft-oppressed Mormons and the children of Israel, it all boils down to just another heavy and conventional covered-wagon trek film, in which (you'll hardly believe it) Tyrone Power plays an incidental role.

The story commences with the tribulations of Joseph Smith and his stalwart band of Mormon saints at Nauvoo, III., and impressively portrays in its early sequences the courageous devotion of these people to their faith despite the whips and scorn of their neighbors. After the dramatically moving death of Smith, however, and the arbitrary acceptance of leadership of Brigham Young, it starts off on the long and monotonous haul by wagon train to Salt Lake, pausing here and there while the people sullenly agitate and Brigham communes with his soul. And, finally, upon reaching the promised land it settles down for a grim, famine-stricken Winter, then ends with a climactic sequence in which a swarm of crickets, which threatens to eat up all the Spring wheat, is miraculously devoured by a ravenous flock of seagulls. Thus is the settlement saved and Brigham divinely vindicated. (This latter event, incidentally, is historically accurate, in the main, and is not just a Hollywood "miracle.")

Considering the restrictions imposed by a heavy story and slow direction, the cast does uniformly well. Dean Jagger, playing his first major role as Brigham, is supremely convincing—a strong, honest, stubborn man impelled by an inner fire. It is his picture. Mr. Power, whose participation is that of a young Mormon zealot who has moments of doubt, is properly earnest. And Mary Astor, Vincent Price, Brian Donlevy, John Carradine and Linda Darnell are all good Mormons in their respective ways.

The absence of any more than casual reference to matrimonial matters and the singular uxorial devotion of Brigham to his No. 1 wife, Miss Astor, is an obvious Hays office compulsion. One or two vague little ladies, such as Jean Rogers, in the background sort of pique one's curiosity, though. It's too bad that "Brigham Young—Frontiersman" had to be so monog—we mean, monotonous.


BRIGHAM YOUNG — FRONTIERSMAN; screen play by Lamar Trotti; based on a story by Louis Bromfield; directed by Henry Hathaway; produced by Darryl F. Zanuck for Twentieth Century-Fox. At the Roxy.
Jonathan Kent . . . . . Tyrone Power
Zina Webb . . . . . Linda Darnell
Brigham Young . . . . . Dean Jagger
Angus Duncan . . . . . Brian Donlevy
Eliza Kent . . . . . Jane Darwell
Porter Rockwell . . . . . John Carradine
Mary Ann Young . . . . . Mary Astor
Joseph Smith . . . . . Vincent Price
Clara Young . . . . . Jean Rogers
Mary Kent . . . . . Ann Todd
Heber Kimball . . . . . Willard Robertson
Doc Richards . . . . . Moroni Olsen
Prosecutor . . . . . Marc Lawrence
Hyrum Smith . . . . . Stanley Andrews
Hubert Crum . . . . . Frank Thomas
Pete . . . . . Fuzzy Knight
Henry Kent . . . . . Dickie Jones
Major . . . . . Russell Simpson
Jim Bridges . . . . . Arthur Aylesworth
Judge . . . . . Tully Marshall

Of all the ages of barbarism ours, at least, shall bear the dubious distinction of being the best documented. With increasing frequency there have been flung across the screens of local theatres purgatorial vistas of falling bombs and wasted cities, premonitions of terror. But not until "Pastor Hall" opened last night at the Globe has any film come so close to the naked spiritual issues involved in the present conflict or presented them in terms so moving. If it is propaganda, it is also more. Out of the despair of its story it has brought a testament of faith, and one which does not require the prolix foreword, spoken by Mrs. Eleanor Roosevelt at the beginning of the film.

Horror is commonplace in our time; it is not tragic until it is personalized. The measure of tragedy lies in the awareness of its protagonist. "Pastor Hall," in our belief, ranks above most of its predecessors for the simple reason that the central character is no melodramatic lay figure, but a human being, seen in depth, whose tormented decision we can share. His struggle is epic, the issues locked in a vast conflict between men of good will and those who cynically destroy. But the end is never in doubt and therein lies its note of exaltation.

Dante wrote his "Inferno" for a medieval mind; it has taken the Twentieth Century to make it real. The scenes here shown of life within a concentration camp are an apocalyptic vision of horror seen through a barbed wire fence. The brute is in command—even the flabby and effeminate variety—a searchlight pencils the darkness at regular intervals, cries ring out in the night and the stupefied prisoners raise taut faces at the sound of the warder's heel. "A bullet costs 12 pfennig," they have been told. "The life of each of you is worth no more, no less." It is cheaper to use the lash. Yet it is the boy whispering of how he returned to Germany at risk of his life because of simple homesickness that makes it overwhelming.

Based upon the story by Ernst Toller, which in turn is said to have been derived from the experience of the Rev. Martin Niemoeller, the film unfolds slowly, beginning at a time when Altdorf was only a remote and sleepy town in Germany. When the storm troops and Nazi theoreticians arrive, the pastor withholds judgment. But glass falls in the street and an old man stands beside his wrecked belongings; a 14-year-old maid goes to a labor camp and returns to kill herself rather than to allow her pregnancy to bring shame upon her father; the lives of the villagers are torn from the peaceful moorings by new and sudden hates, and at last the pastor's way is consummately clear. Before he can speak he is thrown into imprisonment. But he escapes and returns to Altdorf to deliver his last sermon before he is shot on the steps of his own church.

In its production the film is mechanically inferior. The sound track is uneven, the lighting occasionally bad. But in its performances it has been well endowed. Much of the film's dignity and cumulative emotion comes from the fine performance of Wilfrid Lawson as the pastor. He has built the role surely from the unassuming kindliness of the man in the early scenes to the restrained passion of the last moments, never lapsing into false heroics. Nova Pilbeam as the daughter and Sir Seymour Hicks as the old general in his ill-fitting uniform are excellent and the remaining cast competent.

It is to the film's credit that it rises above its familiar particulars to the stature of its theme. Despite the suffering, it sings. In his valedictory Mr. Lawson achieves a moment of ascendant emotion when he exhorts his congregation to put on "the whole armor of God" to fight the anti-Christ. But it is abundantly clear that it is no less a battle for man's faith in his own humanity.

At the 48th Street Theatre

No mistake was made by the management of the Spanish-language division of the little Forty-eighth Street Theatre in beginning its 1940-41 season with "En un Burro Tres Baturros" (Three Rustics on One Donkey). For this comedy-romance, produced in Mexico by V. Saiso Piquer and directed by José Benavides Jr., is so well done that persons who appreciate excellent acting and real atmosphere can enpoy it even if unacquainted with Spanish.

Starting from Aragon, where the most interesting incidents take place, three rough, but likable, young peasants set out for Mexico, with one burro among them. The story rapidly traces the rise to prosperity of the two survivors (Carlos Orellana and Joaquin Pardavé) and their wives (Sara Garcia and Carmen Gentil Arcos). Then come the customary movie troubles with their children and many funny and sadly sentimental happenings, some of which might be shortened to advantage. Of course, all ends well.

Carlos Lopez Moctezuma and lovely Victoria Alonso are effective in the heavy, romantic parts, while Jorge Mairos and Eliva Salcedo are good as a pair of silly lovers.


At the Globe
PASTOR HALL—Screen play by Leslie Arliss, Anna Reiner and Haworth Bromley; based on a story by Ernst Toller; directed by Roy Boulting; produced in England for Charter Films by John Boulting; distributed by James Roosevelt and released through United Artists.
Pastor Hall . . . . . Wilfrid Lawson
Christine Hall . . . . . Nova Pilbeam
General Von Grotjahnl . . . . . Seymour Hicks
Fritz Gerte . . . . . Marius Goring
Werner Von Grotjahn . . . . . Brian Worth
Herr Velt . . . . . Percy Walsh
Lina Veil . . . . . Lina Barrie
Pipperman . . . . . Eliot Makeham
Erwin Kohn . . . . . Peter Cotes
Freundlich . . . . . Edmund Willard
Nazi Pastor . . . . . Hay Petrie
Heinrich Degan . . . . . Bernard Miles

http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/review? ... 838B659EDE

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=32142

[Pierre d'Achoppement]

from the comments:

The Mormon cult holds about 30 billion dollars in assets. Joseph Smith must have known...this man. “Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion.” (L. Ron Hubbard, 1940’s)
- AuntieKhrist

[Luther Blissett]

One on one and as they so happen to be your suburban neighbors growing up -- Mormons are the friendliest, smartest and best looking people on Earth. They really are extremely smart and always usually very intrinsically attractive people. I've never been able to figure any of that out. Perhaps they are the chosen.

I did once date an astoundingly good-looking ex-Mormon once. She was much older than me and I originally assumed she was much younger - I was off in my guess by something like 16 years. However, this is my only anecdotal evidence and I don't think it's accurate to say any group of people are the best looking.

I don't know why she was good-looking. She just was. Perhaps something in her progenitors off-belief system made them very superficial. Who knows.

[Simulist]

If I have time, I always try to make a point of chatting with the Mormons when they stop by. Most of them seem well-intended, but startlingly uninformed (this, in addition to being simply misinformed). Generally speaking, these young men know next to nothing about what lies just outside the narrow boundaries they've been programmed to think inside of.

Their saving grace is that often a few well-placed questions can inspire some genuine curiosity. And that's a beautiful thing to see.

[Marie Laveau]

Did my time in the LDS church. First husband was raised in it. And I never do anything partially. I was deadly serious. Read everything they had. Too bad I didn't read the anti-LDS stuff, but that was before the internets.

Anyway, now I know Smith was a Mason and that's where much of his stuff came from- it's easy to see once you know about both. Also, more than one similarity to Scientology, a la the ET connections.

Maybe being able to become your own Christ, with your own world, able to come and try to teach it and die for it isn't all that craz.....oh, wait....it's batshit insane.

But I always like to say, "Wouldn't it be nuts if they were right?!" Oh, and don't even get me started on the Patriarchal blessing.