Craigslist faces new wave of political attacks

[Peregrine]

The idea of prostitution is odd to me.

Really? Because it's been around for, well, a really long time. It's right up there on one of the oldest trades in history.

In this economy, $100-$300 is quite a lot, and someone is going to tell me 5-10 minutes with some most likely stinky "worker" is worth that?

Just curious... what do you mean, 'stinky "worker"', as you so eloquently put it? I know that you don't mean folks that have been forced into the sex work, as they are obviously being victimized. But none the less, you have referred to some in the industry as "stinky"... Why?

Hmmm... I did catch this little tid bit from you...

I also can't help but imagine being the last customer of the day for a sex worker.

Why? Because she's dirty? Or as you so charmingly put it, because she's some "stinky worker"? That's totally fine if you don't seek out the services of a sex trade worker. But looking at what you have written, you have judged the person (not all sex trade workers are women. Who knew?) who chooses this kind of work as someone who is unscrupulous, because she has tempted a grown individual to part with his hard earned cash. Wow.

When you type these things, you don't assume someone from an atypical field will be reading.

Heh, well, one of the (rather absentee, sorry) moderators happens to work in such a field.

8bit, I'm not faulting you here. Really. The unfortunate thing is that the stigma attached to the sex trade worker is so ingrained. Someone who works in the industry is often considered "diseased" or "dirty". (Here you also seem to be saying out that they take advantage because they are tempting "weak" men to part with their cash.) True they are at a higher risk of contracting something than those who abstain or are more monogamous. But no more risky than someone who is simply promiscuous or has multiple partners.

There's more I'd like to ad, but it will have to wait. I was so wanting to congratulate C_W, but she has stepped down since I've been perusing again. Sorry to hear. Gah, was not wanting something like this to be my first returning after a long absence post... Was stoked to tell y'all about my dungeon furniture I'm building... I'm sure there will be some interesting back & forth on here. It ain't the first time I've spoken strongly on this subject & been told I'm "wrong"... Until later.

[8bitagent]

I guess I too have some stigmas to get over, hard to break perceptions. I just want people to be safe, somewhat happy and not feel under dire straits.
I admit though, my perception of johns prowling for a hundred dollar bj is tethered to the perception of some schlub lacking in social skills or not getting what he needs from his spouse.
(ie: not the most flattering image)

I think we can all agree that this latest push by Washington to go after this stuff is a dangerous precedent, such as Reid targeting legal and safe brothels in Nevada.

Incidentally, I recently saw a really amazing documentary called "sex positive", about a well known gay s and m call guy who helped to aggressively push safe sex awareness in NYC in late 70's and early 80's. I realize "sex worker" isn't simply women getting into dozens of cars a night(that's what I was referring to with my crude comment, which I made in haste)

[parel]

I just want to give a mention to the soft "war on human trafficking" that the US launched around the same time as the W.O.T. Ostensibly, the aim is to "end (sexual) slavery worldwide", which implies that they intend to "rescue" women and children who have been "trafficked" for sexual purposes. Now, I am a sex work veteran of thirty years (yes, there was no HIV when I started!) with twenty years experience as an HIV/AIDS educator, working in my "community". Currently, I work for an NGO that represents about sixty percent of the sex workers of the world - those in Asia and the Pacific. We provide advocacy, sexual health information and solidarity and support tol sex workers in the region, notably setting up our own rights-based, sex worker-run health programmes in Myanmar and this may help as we chip away at China. Our biggest problem now, and for about the last six years has been US policy that aims to eradicate prostitution globally. The trick they use is to conflate sex work with slavery, or coercive labour practices - BUT ONLY IN THE SEX INDUSTRY! One of the strategies they (USAID) employ in Cambodia is to round up sex workers and put them into forced "rehab". Another is to put them in corporate sweat shops. Labour trafficking doesn't seem to concern them at all. In fact, their funding sometimes facilitates it. Their fake trafficking statistics are the "WMD in Iraq" of this war and there's Christian fundamentalist contractors more than willing to play "Blackwater".

So, anytime you read about "trafficking" or organisations dedicated to that fight -- know that it;s a scam. USAID under PEPFAR are funding Christian missionaries to go and convert idol worshippers and heathens in Asia and Africa. They are kidnapping children from hill tribes in Thailand and "teaching them english" -- using the bible. The pretext for taking the children is a hyped up, perceived "threat" of traffickers in the "area". Our HIV/AIDS funding is being usurped by ideologues and they are using that funding to "rescue" us.

As for 8bitagent, being a sex worker is probably the most honest job in the world. Not to mention empowering for women to be able to negotiate a sexual contract in any given situation - commercial or otherwise. I say honest, because our bodies are the only thing we truly own. And we don't proliferate violence against others, against mother earth, in order to "get ahead". We work with what we've got. I am not stinky, and do not spread diseases. In fact, for the last twelve years, I have had two clients whom I see on a rare, though well-paid occasion. Part of the "ick" factor with sex work is the mythology that surrounds it -- starting with "women are just receptacles". Sex work involves WAY more than having sex -- it requires a wide range of skills, starting with self awareness - staying alive, because it is a business that deals with people. A service industry like any other.

[82_28]

Perhaps I am imputing far too much of the snarky present on the past, but check out this odd and creepy story and ad I found in my travels about the Seattle Times archives today. From 11/20/1974:



Craigslist, put this kind of thing out of biz. Seriously, the papers were loaded with smut and extremely odd stories next to even more extremely odd ads. I couldn't believe some of the shit I saw today.

Oh and per my "old phone numbers" thread, the number to rent-a-kid is out of service.

[wordspeak2]

Edifying thread.

"So, anytime you read about "trafficking" or organisations dedicated to that fight -- know that it's a scam."

Really?? I've always kind of wondered about this. By chance could you elaborate, Parel? From where do these statistics come? What is "human sex trafficking" exactly? I mean, what is it in the west? I've been told there's tons of sex trafficking into the U.S. Fascinating what you say about Cambodia, etc; I don't believe I didn't know that. Btw, what's PEPFAR? Any sources on this stuff?

Do you all support legalized prostitution?
I've worked in a different illegal economy before, so I can relate on that level, and I would certainly prefer that area to be legalized (also an honorable profession).

Separately, I'm definitely plugging for Craigslist. One would think it would at least survive. How would I find places to live otherwise?

[Maddy]

Thank you, parel, for that information. I work for a similar organization here, in Vancouver, which helps women who are "survival" sex workers to get help, to get off drugs and to empower themselves. Its one of the most satisfying jobs I have ever had, and I love both the women I work for, and the ones who walk into our doors.

There's a great difference between people who are working as "survival workers" (when one has to work for their little bit of food, a crappy place to sleep if they can afford it, their addiction, etc.) who work on the streets (which is one of the most dangerous jobs there is), and children/people who are forced by others to work or do something they do not wish to do ("slave trade"), and women who make informed decisions about what they are wishing to do with their bodies and lives.

I, personally, despise pimps. That's my personal bias after years of experience seeing what they do to girls. I was a survival worker in my youth, and watched thoise girls get beat up constantly, forced into doing things they didn't wish to do and thought they had no choices in (I, too, thought I had no choice back then). To me, that falls under "slavery". People (young and older) used in Monarch/MkUltra stuff are also slaves to me, and I'm aware there is an industry - and that those behind it do not wish to stop it, as perel points out. Its all a scam, and I'm 100% against it.

But I would never, ever, blame the victims, or call them names.

8-bit, I realize there is a lot of prejudice and assumption to get over when thinking about the sex industry. There's a lot of sexist undercurrent to most of those assumptions. Its really good when one can look back upon their thought processes and realize where they come from and what they are. Because I've had the night to cool down, I'm only going to point out some things that I really hope you will consider in your effort to understand why I used the word misogynistic:

Not against prostitution at all, just saying...I don't get it.

The idea of prostitution is odd to me. In this economy, $100-$300 is quite a lot, and someone is going to tell me 5-10 minutes with some most likely stinky "worker" is worth that? I mean I get why powerful Wallstreet guys do the blow and the $1500-$3000 hookers, it's part of the whole bling blang.

Is it not anti man to assume guys are easy pickens, willing to shell out hard earned money for an easy lay?

I merely was writing that from the perspective of a male mindset and not understanding why guys would shell out money for something so intimate...though I understand many guys go home with strange women after a bar or club.

[parel]

I should probably qualify a few remarks made in the last post. When I say that the 'war on human trafficking' is a scam I mean it in the sense that it is 1/ an IMPERIAL war, based upon 2/FLAWED research (lies) which provides 3/ PROFIT opportunities for those in the international AID game (which in itself, is intensely bloated and corrupt). 4/ Funds that have historically been earmarked for effective HIV/AIDS programming with sex workers is being diverted to agencies whose approach is based upon religious ideology. For example, in Africa, there are NGOs that push a total abstinence policy, as a strategy to combat seroprevalence of HIV/AIDS. 5/ US policy per the Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000 includes determinants for "threat level" which then informs who gets funding - countries must have made an effort to "reduce the demand for commercial sex acts". This is tagged onto the end of a catalogue of coercive acts. In fact, UsAID contracts now contain an "anti-prostitution pledge" that basically forbids advocating for sex work, or decriminalisation, at all. That cuts out (or compromises) a lot of agencies who operate within a rights-based framework. Not to mention some governments who are using Global Fund money (meant for HIV programming) to enforce a 100% condom use policy or simply round up and imprison sex workers, sometimes their children. PEPFAR is the US President's Emergency Fund for AIDS Relief. Funds that were previously sleighted for sex workers, based upon evidence of risk, is no longer available to sex workers. Makes one wonder what kind of HIV/AIDS the president wants to combat. 6/The "war" and the lies and propaganda that followed has actually muddied the waters regarding the REAL issue of 'human trafficking', because they are pushing a specific agenda. Loony Christian, but it's also about migration control. Nobody knows what kinds of numbers are reflective of people being trafficked for labour. I know that in SE Asia, it mostly occurs in the garment and construction industries. (not part of "their" war). 8/There is no good reason, not even "well intentioned", to go to another country to combat trafficking or "rescue" prostitutes. The rescue industry is huge and it is colonialism, pure and simple. In fact, some of them are operating in violation of Thai law which prohibits proselytising away from Buddhism. This is the degree of arrogance some of these missionaries are demonstrating.

The Trafficking in Persons Report (TIP report) is released every year by the Department of State. Here you get a country by country "threat level" update and some profiles. Good place to start, to get a feel of what they're up to.

You can read more about what's happening in our region here:
http://apnswdollhouse.wordpress.com/
http://asiacatalyst.org/blog/2010/08/se ... anmar.html

As for the legalisation question - I support labour rights for sex workers. Legalise, decriminalise, regulate, register - these are tricky questions. And often, it is not prostitution that is illegal, rather prostitution-related activities - soliciting being a common one. It's fundamentally a labour rights issue IMHO. And by addressing it in this context, the trafficking issue is automatically covered. There is no need to introduce 'anti-trafficking' laws a la the Patriot Act.

Maddy, thanks for sharing a little about your work and background. I'm sure we could talk for hours. What a joy it is to hear you enjoy it so much. And bless you!

[Mr. Blissed]

Excellent posts Peregrine and Parel.

What astounds me is how people cling to the prostitution stereotype. Mention sex work and all cognitive functions seem to stop abruptly. Replaced by shallow perceptions and an almost automatic acceptance of negative propaganda which in any other situation would not be tolerated, nevermind perpetuated.

I find it very disturbing that in the vast majority of articles and discussions, politically correct terms and classifications are used to obscure the fact that human beings and how we treat each other are at the center of the issue. Each person, has a life, a past, present and future which goes far beyond the limited classifications. I am a long-time client and have met some of the most tremendous people across the social spectrum. They are all first and foremost people. It is time to deconstruct the stereotype and the disentangle sex work from slavery.

In past cultures there was a very differently view of sex work and sexuality in general, consider reading: "The Sacred Prostitute" by Nancy Qualls-Corbett. Which, from a Jungian perspective, looks at how we have suppressed many aspects of sexuality in the modern world. Regardless of what one thinks of the Jungian underpinnings, it gives pause to consider what is being lost with the present day attitude toward sex.

• Full Title: The sacred prostitute: eternal aspect of the feminine
• Author: Nancy Qualls-Corbett
• Link: The Sacred Prostitute (Google preview)
• ISBN numbers: 0919123317, 9780919123311
• Publisher : Inner City Books, 1988

From my perspective, here's a "positive bumper sticker summation": [I think I will have a bunch made up next time I go to the printers.]

Sex workers make the world a happier place.
Learn how to play together again,
and find the joy in being human.
-- It's That Simple.

Support the artisans of your sex work community.

Some may consider this very simplistic. But in order to change attitudes, the message must be very concise. And I think once all is said and done the core message is simple: A consensual agreement between adults. [Even barter or currency are secondary issues in my book] As long as these conditions are met, all other issues are up to the individuals and should not be in the domain of government.

[Mr. Blissed]

The best thing about craigslist, in terms of prostitution, is that it eliminated the middle man, or pimp, that tends to find his way into the business, and thus reduced the exploitation of young "ladies". The worst or best thing, depending on your point of view, is that it made it quite a bit easier for respectable, young, white, college type girls to prostitute themselves in anonymity, sans social repercussions.

Another good thing about craigslist whoring is that it made it significantly safer for the "ladies" to offer their services. The fact of the matter is, when you find a prostitute via craigslist there is an electronic trail, which presumably victimizer clients would be fully aware of, and as such would be less likely to rape or abuse the prostitutes offering their services, considering it would be much riskier than raping or killing a "lady" picked up off the street.

So ultimately, this ruling does nothing to combat prostitution, it merely makes it much less safe for prostitutes to provide their services. It also makes it much more difficult for law enforcement to monitor or prosecute those that would engage in this type of behavior.

Boy Krysos you nailed it on the head.

Not only did the closing of the Craigs list the adult section make it less safe for sex workers and handcuff law enforcement's ability to track down abusers, it has actually encouraged and increased violence. Craig's list was a nice "juicy public target", something easy to comprehend, which fit neatly into a sound bite.

As we all know however, the Internet has many underground networks and protocols which predate the concept of the web site. Criminals do not play by mainstream rules and therefore are probably overjoyed that the public is so distracted and gloating on the closure of the big bad adult section of Craig's list. They are now free to do, pretty much whatever they want. Away from the public eye.

What ever happened to critical thinking in the public sphere?