Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Stephen Morgan » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:16 pm

crikkett wrote:While I don't remember always agreeing with Stephen, and haven't scrutinized his writing in terms of what hidden or blatant misogyny it may or may not contain, what struck me most about his assertion that 'witches were of course murderous cult w/o involvement in goddess worship' is that he didn't provide us with a supporting link.


I can tell you exactly whereabouts in my flat the relevant books are, if that helps. I mean, I'll try to find a link later.

I sort of assumed it was common knowledge among people of the sort we might find on this message board. Obviously, that was an unconscious assumption which I shouldn't have made.

Canadian Watcher may be putting some words into poor Stephen's mouth. And I'm not just saying that because she's done it before.


You can read everything I've said here, judge for yourself.
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby American Dream » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:46 pm

Here is something more from the author of the OP:

http://www.generation-online.org/p/pfederici.htm

The following is a partial transcript from a talk held by Federici at Vancouver on April 2006:

1486: publication of the Malleus Maleficarum; 1492: Columbus occupies Americas. These are the dates that signal the culmination of the crisis of the feudal world, as a result of long peasants' struggles, and the artisan workers' demand for independence from merchants. Serfdom was coming to an end, despite the sustained attempt of rulers to regain power. Globalisation began when the European elites annexed America to Europe. With the rise of Protestantism, begging starts being seen as a sin and becomes criminalised.

In the 16th and 17th century population starts being treated as an instrument of wealth creation; this changes the general attitude to procreation and fatality.

A) One explanation for the witch hunt is the attempt to take over the body of women in order to control the source of labour. Like the slave trade, the witch hunt became a means to control women, to the extent of criminalizing reproductive autonomy. The economic utility of procreation demanded the establishment of direct control over the reproductive process. The severity of punishment of infanticide arose in the same period, as did capital punishment for abortion. The witch hunt was instrumental to the appropriation of women's bodies for the reproduction of the worker. This continues up to our day. Even now, the state is fighting to control the production of life, evidently in the boom of reproductive technologies and attempts to make reproduction independent from women's bodies.

B) The development of new work discipline and the intensification of labour - despite technology, we now work more than ever - begins in the same period as the witch hunt. The elite looks into all aspects of life (festivals, community activities) as something to be eliminated as superfluous. An attack is waged on all forms of sexuality that is 'unproductive'. The demonisation of female sexuality went hand in hand with the new work discipline.

C) The process whereby the work that goes into the reproduction of life is devalued. Every activity that is useful to the reproduction of the capacity to work is declared as non-work. With capitalism all reproductive activity became feminised, and women become expelled from wage labour. Women's labour disappears as work. The division of labour is the basis of a hierarchy o labour along gender lines, and wage is the tool of separation. The violence that characterised the relation between men and women is embedded in this disparity. The ideology of the witch hunt says that there is something wrong with women who have money, in fact the most commonly persecuted figure is the prostitute. Witch hunt per se did not cause this devaluation of reproduction; that was rather the product of a restructuring of capitalism. Nonetheless, witch hunt was necessary to discipline women into this new role, to create new functions and identities. These have naturalised women's exploitation, hiding it and making it appear as something of nature.

The roots of sexism and racism are the same: a situation where you need workers without rights. Enslavement is essential to this process of accumulation and these have not been one time events; these developments became structural to capitalist society. In the last twenty years you can see similar developments. A globalisation based on land expropriation, migration, an increase in the impoverishment of women, mass prostitution, baby markets etc. As a result of present globalising drives, there has been an explosion of violence against women. Over the last fifteen years there has been a return to witch hunting, in Ghana for instance. The redefinition of the social position of women turns the woman into a kind of compensation for the man's loss of power. The woman is a new common, seen as the new nature, like water etc, something everyone can go and get.

The way sexuality is used, the sex industry has been restructured to define aa relationship between men and the female body which is violent.
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:51 pm

^^^^

the attempt to take over the body of women in order to control the source of labour. Like the slave trade, the witch hunt became a means to control women, to the extent of criminalizing reproductive autonomy.


control the mother control the child
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Stephen Morgan » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:57 pm

seemslikeadream wrote:^^^^

the attempt to take over the body of women in order to control the source of labour. Like the slave trade, the witch hunt became a means to control women, to the extent of criminalizing reproductive autonomy.


control the mother control the child


You puzzle me, slad. Are you entirely serious?
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Cedars of Overburden » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:23 pm

I would like to see Stephen's list of books.
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby barracuda » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:25 pm

Yarnell, you may view Stephen's entire library here.
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Nordic » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:43 pm

barracuda wrote:Yarnell, you may view Stephen's entire library here.


Well isn't that a hell of a thread! I had no idea that forum even existed.

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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Cedars of Overburden » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:51 pm

barracuda wrote:Yarnell, you may view Stephen's entire library here.


I love that thread -- it's one of the reasons behind my patience with the man -- but it doesn't tell me which books he's talking about in this thread. I can make some pretty good guesses, but that's it. If he doesn't clue me in, I'll just go to guessing.
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby psynapz » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:07 pm

Federici describes a typical witch burning as, “an important public event, which all the members of the community had to attend, including the children of the witches, especially their daughters who, in some cases, would be whipped in front of the stake on which they could see their mother burning alive” (186).

That's systemic ritual abuse and torture if ever I heard it. And of course this would breed more "witches" if they were to have dissociated and these parts were to make themselves known at a later date. Ghastly thought.
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Stephen Morgan » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:05 pm

psynapz wrote:
Federici describes a typical witch burning as, “an important public event, which all the members of the community had to attend, including the children of the witches, especially their daughters who, in some cases, would be whipped in front of the stake on which they could see their mother burning alive” (186).

That's systemic ritual abuse and torture if ever I heard it. And of course this would breed more "witches" if they were to have dissociated and these parts were to make themselves known at a later date. Ghastly thought.


If even a single case which meets that description could be provided I would be extremely surprised.

Yarnell Perkins wrote:
barracuda wrote:Yarnell, you may view Stephen's entire library here.


I love that thread -- it's one of the reasons behind my patience with the man -- but it doesn't tell me which books he's talking about in this thread. I can make some pretty good guesses, but that's it. If he doesn't clue me in, I'll just go to guessing.


I forgot all about that thread. I was planning on going and looking at the actual books, which are currently in a big disorganised pile in the other room. The list is slightly different now, but mostly the same as the list there.

The main one I was trying to reference was the Occult Causes of the Present War, which is mostly available on Google Books, I don't have the book handy for page references, it chronicles the continuous history or a movement defying majority religion and mass morality from pre-Christian Rome onwards. The Mammoth Book of the Occult by Colin Wilson has a nice chapter on witchcraft, especially good on the du Montesspan case. Levenda's Sinister Forces has a bit on the pursuit of power through occult means by the transgressive behaviour in breech of common morality. The chapter on witchcraft in Lewis Spence's History of the Religion of Atlantis also provides a bit of evidence for the common origin of the witch-cult in previous eras in the Old and New worlds. I seem to remember a book called 21st Century Grail which had some interesting information on the Templars, but I don't possess that book now. Obviously there's an interesting bit on witchcraft in one of the Fort books, just bits and pieces, and the Golden Ass of Apuleius has a fascinating portrait of Roman era witchcraft, to be read in the knowledge that it is a satirical comedy. The Doom of Alfred the Great. The Book of Werewolves by Baring-Gould on the du Retz case. Several of the norse sagas, for their description of contemporary beliefs in witch-craft. Obviously this is largely reliant on tracing the patterns through the eras, up to the present day with the witch-cults amongst the secretive rich.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Canadian_watcher » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:24 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:
psynapz wrote:
Federici describes a typical witch burning as, “an important public event, which all the members of the community had to attend, including the children of the witches, especially their daughters who, in some cases, would be whipped in front of the stake on which they could see their mother burning alive” (186).

That's systemic ritual abuse and torture if ever I heard it. And of course this would breed more "witches" if they were to have dissociated and these parts were to make themselves known at a later date. Ghastly thought.


If even a single case which meets that description could be provided I would be extremely surprised.



lol. You want names? What difference would that make to you, exactly?
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Stephen Morgan » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:05 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:lol. You want names?


That would be a good start.

What difference would that make to you, exactly?


It would surprise me. I think I was quite clear about that.

Obviously the provision of even a dozen cases of children being whipped in front of their burning mothers wouldn't convince me that the witches were all innocent proto-feminists being burned by the hundreds of thousands by an evil patriarchal conspiracy, that's bullshit as I've already argued, but it would surprise me.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Canadian_watcher » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:27 pm

I'll get right on that. Why don't you dig me up a couple dozen examples of specific men who would be rich and happy right now if it weren't for a specific woman getting a specific thing that was rightfully his.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Project Willow » Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:06 pm

This board may claim to be anti-fascist but it has been and continues to be hostile to women. I still don't understand how that works exactly.

You can read an earlier discussion here:
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=24522&hilit=misogyny

Or another, I think 22 pager, which I found rather infuriating, but there are those with far more patience than I.
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20273&hilit=misogyny
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby jam.fuse » Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:25 pm

The witch trials were a minor footnote at most, a few hundred people killed over several centuries, barely enough to make a ripple.

The venerable Wikipedia says otherwise.
Current scholarly estimates of the number of people executed for witchcraft vary between about 40,000 and 100,000. The total number of witch trials in Europe which are known for certain to have ended in executions is around 12,000.

Prominent contemporary critics of witch hunts included Gianfrancesco Ponzinibio (fl. 1520), Johannes Wier (1515-1588), Reginald Scot (1538-1599), Cornelius Loos (1546-1595), Anton Praetorius (1560-1613), Alonso Salazar y Frias (1564-1636), Friedrich Spee (1591-1635), and Balthasar Bekker (1634-1698).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt

Ibid., from entry for Reginald Scott (1538-1599).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Scot

He studied the superstitions respecting witchcraft in courts of law in country districts, where the prosecution of witches was constant, and in village life, where the belief in witchcraft flourished. He set himself to prove that the belief in witchcraft and magic was rejected alike by reason and religion, and that spiritualistic manifestations were either wilful impostures or illusions due to mental disturbance in the observers.
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