DMT - what?

[norton ash]

Thanks for that, Nathan. ^^

Back in the 80's salvia was known and generally dismissed as a wild little trip. But the lay-stoner perception was that it must be bad for your brain because of the head rush feeling followed by the shambling, stuporous after-effect-- which led people to think that there might be a toxic-asphyxia thing going on like huffing glue or solvents, or smoke inhalation.

That was the word on Salvia back then. The totally unscientific consensus among the dilettante Canadian university stoners I knew was that it wasn't that much fun, and might give you brain or organ damage.

[Cosmic Cowbell]

Hi Maddy,

You might find this an interesting read (w/video).

Deep in the Amazon jungle, writer Kira Salak tests ayahuasca, a shamanistic medicinal ritual, and finds a terrifying—but enlightening—world within.

The National Geographic Channel sent a film crew to Peru to shadow a pair of Americans on their quest to try ayahuasca. See for yourself how the ritual ceremony begins.

Peru: Hell and Back

Agreed w/Norton. Most likely Salvia is what's goin round w/kids (that's her story and she's a stickin' to it).



Cheers!

[crikkett]

maybe that will tell you how people get their hands on it. I remember being at a bar a long time ago and someone I was with was after exstacy (ecstasy, extasy, xtc??) anyway.. the guy gave them something called MDMT instead.. I am not into the drug subculture enough (at all) to know if maybe that's what the kids are getting..?

That was MDMA.

I've read that DMT compounds are used in shamanic rituals, and that users are pretty immobile during their trips so there's no danger of something like a Reefer madness.

Isn't it such a shame that they can't test for DMT? Why is the first concern always about monitoring other people's private business?

"Watch out, someone might have figured out a way to expand their minds that we can't test for!"

[nathan28]

Thanks, guys. You're brilliant. I'm going to look at the links tomorrow, after I get some sleep. Been working all day, etc. ad nauseum. I think hallucinogens are marvelous in the right way, for spiritual/etc. purposes. The women where I work were really puzzled though about this, so it'll be nice to take back some practical information to them.

I was thinking peyote, too, when I heard "cactus", that's why I got all "wtf?" about it.

Yeah, b/c she's confused.

This is how I'd classify things, b/c she's talking about one thing like it's several. Also. Wikipedia. Come on, old people, if you're going to be half-educated, at least use The G--gle. Practically, this is the "potency and duration" chart IMO:


Longest-lasting
LSD (hours)
Ecstasy (hours)
Mescaline (hours)
Mushrooms (hours)
Salvia (minutes)
DMT (minutes)

So people get to thinking "well LSD lasts 12 hours and ecstasy lasts 8 so they must be the same!"

Intensity of experience
DMT
Salvia
LSD
Ecstasy
Mushrooms
Mescaline

So people get to thinking that "DMT is intense and Salvia is intense so they must be the same!"

But they're not. What follows is probably full of errors--I'm not a chemist or a doctor or lawyer, this isn't medical or legal advice, and I'm just someone who reads widely and has experimented with a lot of things:

Structure
Tryptamines
DMT--a natural tryptamine found in all animals and many plants
Psilocybin mushrooms--a "natural" tryptamine found in... psilocybin mushrooms. duh.

These work by "tricking" your neurons into using them. DMT doesn't even trick them--they use it naturally.

Not a Tryptamine, an Ergoline
LSD--"atypical" synthetic derived from ergot fungus

Tryptamines are structurally similar to the amino acid tryptophan, which is in your brain all the time. Serotonin, the "well-being" neurotransmitter, is a tryptamine, and so is melatonin, the sleep-regulating neurotransmitter. DMT is apparently created along branches of the same metabolic pathways as these. DMT is in anything with a brain and a lot of plants. That's why your stomach and intestines have enzymes to destroy it, b/c otherwise it'd be dangerous to eat and walk at the same time. Psilocybin is "natural" in quotation marks because mushroom spores can travel through space and Terence McKenna thinks that psilocybin was an alien civilization that uploaded itself into the spores and then mailed them out into the universe, which I'm not sure I believe but still think is awesome.

LSD is an ergopeptine, b/c it was derived from LSA from ergot fungus, and was discovered during research into drugs to aide childbirth b/c the ergolines influence blood loss etc. and can reduce migraines. They are related to ergoline, which is also in the brain if I understand. Hygerdine and bromocriptine, two drugs that have positive effects on mood and generally protect the brain, are also ergolines.

Hallucinogenic stimulants
Ecstasy/MDMA--synthetic empathogenic/hallucinogenic methamphetamine
Mescaline/peyote/Peruvian Torch--naturall hallucinogenic stimulant

These are both structurally similar to the amino acid phenethylamine, which is in your brain all the time. Phenethylamine has some stimulant-like effects if taken on an empty stomach by itself. Dopamine and norepinephrine are made by the brain from this amino acid. "Amphetamine" is IIRC a shorthand for Alpha-methyl-phenethylamine. In drugstores levo-methamphetamine (which won't really get you 'high' but still appears to help w/ memory and concentration) is sold OTC in inhalers as "l-mefamfetamine" to reduce embarrassment. Mescaline is not an amphetamine, though.

Amphetamine works by inhibiting capture of dopamine and norepiniphrine by neurons. Cocaine, which is like amp., works by causeing neurons to 'dump' their dopamine... both lead to more neurotransmitters being active. Ecstasy works by dumping/inhibiting uptake of serotonin and dopamine. I'm not sure how mescaline works.


Salvia--kappa-opioid, but k-opioids aren't addictive and have effects on many different parts of the metabolism. There's been suggestions that k-opioids can 'reverse' ADD by 'resetting' dopamine. I'm not going to pretend to understand this. I think nitrous oxide is also a k-opioid.


Like everything else in the real world, these aren't hard categories. Some "designer drugs" are both tryptamines with amphetamine structures. Ecstasy is a methamphetamine / phenylethylamine derivative but impacts both dopamine and serotonin.

MDMA? MDMA is the purest form of ecstasy, whereas usually it mixed with something for the base (methamphetamine, LSD, Cocaine) to save both cost and to give experiences.

oooohhhh. yeah, that's probably what the guy said. it was years ago.

Your dude said that b/c he wanted to make sure you didn't act all burnt when he sold you shit he didn't even know what it was. "Ecstasy" is supposed to be MDMA. IME "rolls" referred to heavily-adulterated tablets that are usually ecstasy mixed with god knows what, probably a mixture of pseudofed and tylenol. "Molly" was "molecular" and made out to be "different" but that's just what happens when you listen to the mrkt'g dep't. It's MDMA, probably adulterated with meth (which looks the same usually) from either sloppy manufacture or b/c it's cheaper and easier to find. With molly it's harder to get over on people b/c if you mix in coke (which is probably cocaine mixed with inositol powder and lactose) or d-amp or Tylenol you'll be able to see different colors and textures in the bag. Coke is pretty expensive to cut something with IMO, and LSD was like $10-20 for a tiny 20ug dose if you don't know a regular supplier, but you'd only need a little bit, it's just that measuring it out sounds like it'd be a pain so who knows. FWIW the word on the street a few years ago was that there had been no "real" ecstasy, i.e., straight up MDMA.

[nathan28]

I've read that DMT compounds are used in shamanic rituals, and that users are pretty immobile during their trips so there's no danger of something like a Reefer madness.

Isn't it such a shame that they can't test for DMT? Why is the first concern always about monitoring other people's private business?

"Watch out, someone might have figured out a way to expand their minds that we can't test for!"

Ah, but I think you're wrong here. A regular cocaine/amphetamine/marijuana drug screen is cheap.

But where does drug testing really matter? In professional sports. And guess what? It's expensive there. Because the most widely-used drug is synthetic testosterone (anabolic steroids... the "steroids" you get from a doctor are catabolic steroids like predinose, not sex hormones. Cholesterol is structurally a steroid.), and you simply can't just test for blood testosterone levels, because "average" testosterone levels are three times higher at the high end than the low end, and can vary dramatically in the same person even. And in teenage boys, what's considered "normal" would be considered out-of-bounds in adult males, by something like a factor of 50%. Most steroid users are probably barely above "high normal" when they're on gear, meaning that if you took a steroid user's blood profile and a 17-year-old male athelete's, you'd have trouble figuring out which was which.

And it's expensive, because you're not testing for known foreign substances, you're testing for analogues that are almost identical.

But it's expensive--so companies *WANT* to test for it. The reason anabolic steroids became illegal in the US was largely because the Int'l Olympic Committee was having trouble justifying the expensive testing of amateur, not pro, athletes and so they lobbied Congress.


I have to wonder if that's what's going on here. "Hey, let's lobby congress to get $$$ to fight the DMT menance!"


Also, Salvia. Shambling. Bad news. But not toxic.

[WakeUpAndLive]

Salvia is...well it just is a very intense experience as well, but from what I've heard on both (and experienced with salvia) it is much less of an out of body experience. The objects of this world on salvia literally change form and position. Objects rapidly move further and closer, your body feels pressure from all sides almost as if you are being pushed backwards (you get this feeling especially while in a seat), and objects morph into different forms. One experience my friend had was seeing everything in legos. Laughing REALLY hard for no apparent reason for about 2-3 mins was my experience. From what I've heard on DMT it is one of the most intense out of body experiences, you literally feel like you are traveling through time and space. I don't think you'd be laughing on it at all.

Like another person said, most likely it is salvia, I know you can purchase it legally in california and it will be much easier to obtain. DMT is usually made in small batches for friends, not for mass distribution.

Longest-lasting
LSD (hours)
Ecstasy (hours)
Mescaline (hours)
Mushrooms (hours)
Salvia (minutes)
DMT (minutes)

So people get to thinking "well LSD lasts 12 hours and ecstasy lasts 8 so they must be the same!"

Intensity of experience
DMT
Salvia
LSD
Ecstasy
Mushrooms
Mescaline

So people get to thinking that "DMT is intense and Salvia is intense so they must be the same!"

QFT

Your dude said that b/c he wanted to make sure you didn't act all burnt when he sold you shit he didn't even know what it was. "Ecstasy" is supposed to be MDMA. IME "rolls" referred to heavily-adulterated tablets that are usually ecstasy mixed with god knows what, probably a mixture of pseudofed and tylenol. "Molly" was "molecular" and made out to be "different" but that's just what happens when you listen to the mrkt'g dep't. It's MDMA, probably adulterated with meth (which looks the same usually) from either sloppy manufacture or b/c it's cheaper and easier to find. With molly it's harder to get over on people b/c if you mix in coke (which is probably cocaine mixed with inositol powder and lactose) or d-amp or Tylenol you'll be able to see different colors and textures in the bag. Coke is pretty expensive to cut something with IMO, and LSD was like $10-20 for a tiny 20ug dose if you don't know a regular supplier, but you'd only need a little bit, it's just that measuring it out sounds like it'd be a pain so who knows. FWIW the word on the street a few years ago was that there had been no "real" ecstasy, i.e., straight up MDMA.

Pure MDMA is rare, even if you know the person making it the chances you are getting it will be slim to none. Most out this way are mixed with meth, like you said it is the cheapest way, but from my small knowledge on the subject there is very little price difference out here anyways. For the most part you pay for the dosages, which they call stacks. There are single, double, and triple stacks, still one item, just multiple dosages in that item. I've heard of honestly just about ever mix of MDMA, but I tend to stay away, you just never know what you're gonna get.

[lucky]

It wsa rumoured my mckenna that dmt ws prouduced in the pineal gland and that larges doses were released on death thus werird nde's- but nothi has been proven- this was the 'legalise it' movements argument - how haw can it be ilegal to have something in thatwas produced m=by you?

[Luther Blissett]

It wsa rumoured my mckenna that dmt ws prouduced in the pineal gland and that larges doses were released on death thus werird nde's- but nothi has been proven- this was the 'legalise it' movements argument - how haw can it be ilegal to have something in thatwas produced m=by you?

The friend who sent me a portion of his batch theoreticizes that DMT is definitely released during times of great duress, such as near-death experiences, religious fervors, etc, and that death may be a trip that lasts a millisecond, but while you are experiencing it, it feels like an eternity. His version of heaven.

Jeff wrote a few entries about this on the blog, and they're all good:
http://rigint.blogspot.com/2007/11/unnameable.html
http://rigint.blogspot.com/2006/09/born ... t-two.html

[Wombaticus Rex]

It wsa rumoured my mckenna that dmt ws prouduced in the pineal gland and that larges doses were released on death thus werird nde's- but nothi has been proven- this was the 'legalise it' movements argument - how haw can it be ilegal to have something in thatwas produced m=by you?

Not rumored, well established biological fact dating back to 1965, many chordates have endogenous DMT in their bloodsteam. What remains to be proven is origination in the pineal gland.

[professorpan]

DMT is rarely seen except among the entheogentsia, i.e. the psychedelic underground community. Real MDMA is not rare in the community, and if you know the person who made it, you're likely getting the real thing—provided your chemist friend knows what the hell he or she is doing. But if you're getting so-called Ecstasy from a guy who normally sells coke or weed and doesn't specialize in psychedelics, all bets are off.

Salvia and DMT are very different subjective experiences and can't be compared except that they are short, intense, and otherworldly. I spoke to several people recently who have taken Salvia (vaporized Salvinorin A) in a controlled university setting. They speak of "entities" in almost identical terms as many of those who have used DMT.

The DMT realms have a quality that is significantly different than the Salvia realms, but descriptions fall prey to the usual lack of language for those experiences. Salvia has always felt a little more malevolent and ego-fragmenting to me, while DMT seems more like a wormhole to someplace utterly real and inhabited. But many would disagree.

And I believe it is Rick Strassman who hyped the DMT/pineal theory, though, as Wombaticus pointed out, it's just a theory with no corroborating evidence.

Melatonin, however, is produced in the pineal, and it's also an endogenous tryptamine like DMT. I've had some very interesting (and at times frightening) experiences taking melatonin. If you like bizarre dreams, run out and grab a bottle and take 3-6mg an hour before bed. My melatonin experiences make me wonder if it's a chemical doorway, similar to DMT, opening us to other realities. I'm sure I've probably written about one experience in particular here, but I'm too lazy to look for it now.

[professorpan]

I find the DMT/NDE theory problematic for one major reason: NDEs are almost always described as very lucid, realer-than-real, and the imagery reported is generally very realistic (tunnel, angelic beings, departed loved one, bright light, life review) while DMT produces absolutely bizarre and brain-bendingly weird imagery. Dying people don't see the McKenna-esque self-dribbling jeweled basketball elves blowing bubbles of concretized language. They see Jesus and Uncle Timmy and Granny.

[82_28]

I've read that DMT compounds are used in shamanic rituals, and that users are pretty immobile during their trips so there's no danger of something like a Reefer madness.

Isn't it such a shame that they can't test for DMT? Why is the first concern always about monitoring other people's private business?

"Watch out, someone might have figured out a way to expand their minds that we can't test for!"

Ah, but I think you're wrong here. A regular cocaine/amphetamine/marijuana drug screen is cheap.

But where does drug testing really matter? In professional sports. And guess what? It's expensive there. Because the most widely-used drug is synthetic testosterone (anabolic steroids... the "steroids" you get from a doctor are catabolic steroids like predinose, not sex hormones. Cholesterol is structurally a steroid.), and you simply can't just test for blood testosterone levels, because "average" testosterone levels are three times higher at the high end than the low end, and can vary dramatically in the same person even. And in teenage boys, what's considered "normal" would be considered out-of-bounds in adult males, by something like a factor of 50%. Most steroid users are probably barely above "high normal" when they're on gear, meaning that if you took a steroid user's blood profile and a 17-year-old male athelete's, you'd have trouble figuring out which was which.

And it's expensive, because you're not testing for known foreign substances, you're testing for analogues that are almost identical.

But it's expensive--so companies *WANT* to test for it. The reason anabolic steroids became illegal in the US was largely because the Int'l Olympic Committee was having trouble justifying the expensive testing of amateur, not pro, athletes and so they lobbied Congress.


I have to wonder if that's what's going on here. "Hey, let's lobby congress to get $$$ to fight the DMT menance!"


Also, Salvia. Shambling. Bad news. But not toxic.

Interesting. Just yesterday watching college basketball highlights I was wondering why it is these kids look older than me, a chain smoking drunk. I figured it must have been the testosterone.

[WakeUpAndLive]

DMT is rarely seen except among the entheogentsia, i.e. the psychedelic underground community. Real MDMA is not rare in the community, and if you know the person who made it, you're likely getting the real thing—provided your chemist friend knows what the hell he or she is doing. But if you're getting so-called Ecstasy from a guy who normally sells coke or weed and doesn't specialize in psychedelics, all bets are off.

Your talking about a rare bread of chemists man. MDMA is not too rare if you've been involved in the community for a while (or know the right people), but for 99.99% of population and 90%+ of MDMA users I would say pure is out of the realm of acquisition and most likely out of the realm of caring for the majority of E users.

[gnosticheresy_2]

Intensity of experience
Ecstasy
Mushrooms

other way round

[wordspeak2]

I smoked DMT at least 50 times in a relatively recent period of my life, and I'm the deepest believer in it. With this stuff we can do *anything.* There's a visceral sense in the depths of that experience that somehow this is *the answer.* If we could bring the wisdom from the DMT dimension, or somehow use the DMT power- this is the hope for global salvation. A similar though not quite as powerful feeling can be induced by a "level-5" mushroom trip. But DMT is truly, truly something else- so insanely bizarre and so mind-blowingly powerful we have nothing to remotely compared it to. I can only quote Terence McKenna: "It's not only stranger than you believe; it's stranger than you can believe." The question does need to be begged after experiencing DMT visions: Where on Earth (or not??) do they come from??? I mean, really. What the fuck? These visions are hundreds of times more beautiful than anything we see in the physical landscape, than any art man has produced. And the visions are just a manifestation of a deeper experience. Encountering these alien beings with this profound wisdom... why as a humankind are we not exploring this stuff more? This stuff is IT. If anything is radical enough to be an "answer," a tool for revolution at this stage in history- this is it. But it's wholly translinguistic and thus frustrating and virtually impossible to put into words. McKenna hypothesized that a big part of what is going on with DMT is the attempt to facilitate a new language. Could be?

For the record DMT has been much more available in the general youth conscious drug culture in the past few years (I'm immersed in that world). People extract it from a South American bark (mimosa hostilis); apparently it's a pretty simple process. At summer festivals the stuff's been ubiquitous. However, most people few around with it, which is a really terrible shame, and others just don't know how to do it mechanistically. It needs to be vaporized, and done in a safe, quiet, ideally dark setting not on the influence on alcohol or caffeine or any such crap. If you do it properly with the right intention and you *really get a lot of the vapor into you fast* it's hard to not *break through* and be shot like a rocket into "hyperspace." It's at least ten times more powerful than anything you've ever experienced; you really could have absolutely no idea. With sub-breakthrough experiences you're shown what you need to be shown; with breakthrough experiences you're shot into- another dimension, perhaps? You encounter what McKenna called "the Other." And the rational scientific explanation would be what? There isn't one.

And btw, regarding MDMA- a lovely compliment to the real powerful substances like DMT and mushrooms- I would disagree with the assertion that there's not a lot of clean stuff out there. There's actually tons of MDMA out there, though even more misinformation about it. The pre-cursors for it are easy to obtain, in Europe, especially. Of course, there's a lot of dirty stuff, too. The little pills are notorious for being dirty. The powder is more often clean- at least, in the white hippy scene. If you're poor in the city it's harder to get clean stuff for sure. But there's tons of real MDMA out there, believe me- we usually call it "molly," for "the molecule." And a Harvard study just revealed a month ago that MDMA has no neurotoxicity- the first study of its kind. http://www.maps.org/media/view/new_stud ... asy_users/ But I could have told you that- no neurotoxicity for me in hundreds of rolls. Now do a genuine neurotoxicity study on alcohol and caffeine....