Theophobia

[Wombaticus Rex]

I admit I do have that knee-jerk reaction, every single time. I've learned to keep it completely under the surface and be respectful regardless, after all I worship Ganesh so I grok the concept at least. But, yes, it gives me pause and how could it not?

That said, I've got life experience that's shown me how domain specific the human intellect is. Back when I was researching the US education system all the best research was from Xtians who were home-schooling and concerned about a secular humanist UN agenda (and sure enough they found one but that's a whole other animal and far more universal than any faith).

[sunny]

When you vote for George Bush or push for creationism to be taught in public schools as an 'alternate theory' to evolution, not on the basis of any independant thought, but because your preacher or Focus on the Family told you to do so, I can't respect that. Does this make me theophobic? I don't think so, I think it makes me idiot-phobic.

Agree. People of the christian faith have proven themselves to be dangerous and untrustworthy. Realistically, they can't even be trusted to follow the precepts of their own religion, and their political naiveté has allowed them to be manipulated to embrace the most hateful aspects of modern American life, including war and prejudice. Christians have a long way to go to show that they can be trusted ever again to think for themselves.

There are many reason to fear and avoid ignorance.

Some [ok a lot of] people of the Christian fath have proven themselves dangerous and untrustworthy, just as 'some' Muslims, 'some' Jews, and 'some' whateverthefucks have who, realistically, can't be trusted to follow the precepts of their own religion. There are true Christians out here who try to follow the teachings of Christ and disregard any so-called religious leader who contradicts those teachings, including most especially in regard to war and violence. And what do you know, some of us try teach our children about faith without also teaching them to force it on other people, or hate people who are different from them, or judge people by the actions of other individuals or groups of individuals...

Just so you know I prefer to be persecuted for my righteousness rather than plain old assholery..

[IanEye]

the transformation of waste is perhaps the oldest pre-occupation of man.
man being the chosen alloy, he must be reconnected—via shit, at all cost.
inherent within us is the dream of the task of the alchemist to create from the clay of man.
and to re-create from excretion of man pure and then soft and then solid gold.

[Canadian_watcher]

Are you trying to suggest that faith-based people are an oppressed group equal in that way to, say, queer, and/or poor, and/or non-white, and/or non-male people?

no, I'm pointing out that there is a widespread and disconcerting knee-jerk reaction by some people towards those who admit that they have faith.

Well, good. I'm glad we're being clear on the distinction.

Personally, I think faith is a very personal matter and there's no need to try to police what's in their head. I'm much more concerned with what they do: Is their faith inspiring them to fast at the gates of the School of the Americas? Does it justify their jumping into bed with racists and fascists? Big difference.

And then there's the whole critical thinking piece..

Actions are intentions made manifest (when done in a vacuum, I guess because 999% of the time there are so many consequences of any action that the best intentions often lead to pain and suffering somewhere down the line).. so actions are of course more of a concern than beliefs.

I think critically, but I also have faith. I don't believe in any sky-Gods or underworld gods or what have you. Those are just projections, IMO, by people who want to identify with an aspect of what they perceive to be the guiding force of the universe.

I do though believe that there *is* some guiding force of the universe and that our ability to see past the ends of our noses and react as often as possible out of courage and love rather than fear.. That's pretty much much spirituality in a nutshell.

[American Dream]

Are you trying to suggest that faith-based people are an oppressed group equal in that way to, say, queer, and/or poor, and/or non-white, and/or non-male people?

no, I'm pointing out that there is a widespread and disconcerting knee-jerk reaction by some people towards those who admit that they have faith.

Well, good. I'm glad we're being clear on the distinction.

Personally, I think faith is a very personal matter and there's no need to try to police what's in their head. I'm much more concerned with what they do: Is their faith inspiring them to fast at the gates of the School of the Americas? Does it justify their jumping into bed with racists and fascists? Big difference.

And then there's the whole critical thinking piece..

Actions are intentions made manifest (when done in a vacuum, I guess because 999% of the time there are so many consequences of any action that the best intentions often lead to pain and suffering somewhere down the line).. so actions are of course more of a concern than beliefs.

I think critically, but I also have faith. I don't believe in any sky-Gods or underworld gods or what have you. Those are just projections, IMO, by people who want to identify with an aspect of what they perceive to be the guiding force of the universe.

I do though believe that there *is* some guiding force of the universe and that our ability to see past the ends of our noses and react as often as possible out of courage and love rather than fear.. That's pretty much much spirituality in a nutshell.

Ok, but what about the part where faith supports Racism or Fascism?

[Stephen Morgan]

.
(I consider Buddhism a philosophy not a religion)

hmmmm....

do you have any faith in the tenets of the philosophy?

That desire causes suffering is patently obvious, to me anyway. But I don't believe in an afterlife of any sort or reincarnation.

Doesn't Buddhism usually involve a belief in reincarnation and the eventual attainment of nirvana after advancement through reincarnation? With Nirvana being a state of non-existence, as existence is suffering? Then, isn't it cheating to choose a religion which pursues extinction of the self and abandon the bit which makes that a lofty goal in favour of a mechanistic belief in the inevitability of extinction of the self at the moment of corporeal death? It's like buying a computer game and looking up the cheat codes before you even play it.

When you vote for George Bush or push for creationism to be taught in public schools as an 'alternate theory' to evolution, not on the basis of any independant thought, but because your preacher or Focus on the Family told you to do so, I can't respect that. Does this make me theophobic? I don't think so, I think it makes me idiot-phobic.

Agree. People of the christian faith have proven themselves to be dangerous and untrustworthy.

No more so than people in general.

Realistically, they can't even be trusted to follow the precepts of their own religion, and their political naiveté has allowed them to be manipulated to embrace the most hateful aspects of modern American life, including war and prejudice.

The word you're looking for there is "Americans", rather than Christians. Violent, ignorant savages who care nothing for the precepts of their nominal religion: Americans.

Christians have a long way to go to show that they can be trusted ever again to think for themselves.

To think for themselves in a way you agree with, you mean.

There are many reason to fear and avoid ignorance.

I'm gonna stay anyway.

If was as if our Christian friend had declared that the world was flat or was dabbling in alchemy.

As a practicing alchemist I cannot over-emphasize how offensive I found that statement. Being compared to Christians and Flat Earth proponents, who have no evidence or accomplishments to their name whatsoever, utterly belittles our contributions to the human endeavor. Granted, it's just little things, LIKE FUCKING CHEMISTRY, but still, we're proud of what we've done so far.

Well, sort of. That's like saying aspirin and artemesinin, and so on, are herbal medicine so all those witch-doctors bilking money from the unwary are really better than doctors. Once upon a time alchemy was a mystic discipline which contained some of the seeds of a proper science. Now, we have the proper science and we have alchemy which is all the dross left over. Christianity, on the other hand, has achieved more things that one could mention, from being the inspiration for Newton's theories of gravity, which he wrote in his time off from his main line of work as an analyst of Christian eschatology, to ending the pagan practice of leaving their young to die so they wouldn't have to support them. Okay, it's not very impressive next to failing to transmute base metals or laying claim to chemistry like a Pheonician laying claim to Dickens because they invented an ancestor of our alphabet, but still.

If was as if our Christian friend had declared that the world was flat or was dabbling in alchemy.

As a practicing alchemist I cannot over-emphasize how offensive I found that statement. Being compare to Christians and Flat Earth proponents, who have no evidence or accomplishments to their name whatsoever, utterly belittles our contributions to the human endeavor. Granted, it's just little things, LIKE FUCKING CHEMISTRY, but still, we're proud of what we've done so far.

well yes, but there was a time when practicing alchemy was like.. oh, I dunno.. practicing faith is today.

That time being, you know, now.

Are you trying to suggest that faith-based people are an oppressed group equal in that way to, say, queer, and/or poor, and/or non-white, and/or non-male people?

no, I'm pointing out that there is a widespread and disconcerting knee-jerk reaction by some people towards those who admit that they have faith.

Is this the place to witness? You know, to tell you all about Jesus?

well yes, but there was a time when practicing alchemy was like.. oh, I dunno.. practicing faith is today.

Really, there's an inquisition that tortures and kills people for "practicing faith today" ?

Oh, right, DHS....well, good point then.

Also, the Saudi government.

Are you trying to suggest that faith-based people are an oppressed group equal in that way to, say, queer, and/or poor, and/or non-white, and/or non-male people?

no, I'm pointing out that there is a widespread and disconcerting knee-jerk reaction by some people towards those who admit that they have faith.

Well, good. I'm glad we're being clear on the distinction.

Personally, I think faith is a very personal matter and there's no need to try to police what's in their head. I'm much more concerned with what they do: Is their faith inspiring them to fast at the gates of the School of the Americas? Does it justify their jumping into bed with racists and fascists? Big difference.

And then there's the whole critical thinking piece..

Well, I don't see how faith in Jesus could encourage anyone to do that, although people doing that may maintain such a pretence. It was talking to Quakers, on the other hand, than got Frank Olson killed.

[Canadian_watcher]

Ok, but what about the part where faith supports Racism or Fascism?

in my opinion that is abhorrent to any real faith. I know it happens.. does it ever. But as sunny said, above, there are people of faith that would never ever support racism or fascism. Most of them, probably. As I see it it's the nutty ones that get all the press and dominate political movements because they are the ones motivated by control and power over.

[barracuda]

Christians have a long way to go to show that they can be trusted ever again to think for themselves.

There are many reason to fear and avoid ignorance.

"I only hate two types of people: Bigots ... and the Dutch"
Austin Powers.

I don't hate anybody. This has been one of the most valuable lessons I've drawn from Christianity, that hate is poison to the soul.

Some [ok a lot of] people of the Christian fath have proven themselves dangerous and untrustworthy, just as 'some' Muslims, 'some' Jews, and 'some' whateverthefucks have who, realistically, can't be trusted to follow the precepts of their own religion. There are true Christians out here who try to follow the teachings of Christ and disregard any so-called religious leader who contradicts those teachings, including most especially in regard to war and violence. And what do you know, some of us try teach our children about faith without also teaching them to force it on other people, or hate people who are different from them, or judge people by the actions of other individuals or groups of individuals...

Just so you know I prefer to be persecuted for my righteousness rather than plain old assholery..

Yes, but Muslims and Jews didn't bring the Bush clan to power in this country, the Christian right did.

Christianity is such a massively revolutionary doctrine that the vast majority of people simply cannot undergo the sacrifices necessary to fullfill its doctrines. I found myself among that number long ago. I don't have what it takes. But that hasn't dimmed my admiration for the teachings of Jesus in the gospels much at all. I find them to be exemplary guidance.

I do though believe that there *is* some guiding force of the universe and that our ability to see past the ends of our noses and react as often as possible out of courage and love rather than fear.. That's pretty much much spirituality in a nutshell.

So, is this the outline of your faith? You don't follow a doctrinal faith of any kind, then?

[Stephen Morgan]

the transformation of waste is perhaps the oldest pre-occupation of man.
man being the chosen alloy, he must be reconnected—via shit, at all cost.
inherent within us is the dream of the task of the alchemist to create from the clay of man.
and to re-create from excretion of man pure and then soft and then solid gold. [/center]

Humbug. In earliest times man simply tossed his shit into the bushes. Then he learned it could be useful fertiliser, in which capacity it is often still used by "Good Life" types, such as Vossarian's commune. He learned it could be used in the leather-tanning process, that piss could be used to dye clothes, &c..

You know, Socrates was from Shitville.

[American Dream]

Ok, but what about the part where faith supports Racism or Fascism?

in my opinion that is abhorrent to any real faith. I know it happens.. does it ever. But as sunny said, above, there are people of faith that would never ever support racism or fascism. Most of them, probably. As I see it it's the nutty ones that get all the press and dominate political movements because they are the ones motivated by control and power over.

Here we get into the part where faith can conflict with critical thinking, as faith does often lead well-intentioned people into congress with problematic people and ideas, don't you think?

[sunny]

Yes, but Muslims and Jews didn't bring the Bush clan to power in this country, the Christian right did.

Sorry, I didn't know the debate was restricted to who was responsible for Bush.

[Canadian_watcher]

That time being, you know, now.

okay yeah.. still now. 'cause it is kind of a spiritually based thing in spite of it being also a physical based thing, which is why modern science cannot abide it.

Is this the place to witness? You know, to tell you all about Jesus?

Probably not, but not on account of me. If it were "Rigorous Morgan" and I happened along then I'd be okay with it and to hell with those who weren't. I'm not Christian, but I do draw on Jesus' teachings as much as any other spiritual leader's.

edited to fix formatting

[Canadian_watcher]

Here we get into the part where faith can conflict with critical thinking, as faith does often lead well-intentioned people into congress with problematic people and ideas, don't you think?

Sure. So does money. So does sex.

[Canadian_watcher]

Yes, but Muslims and Jews didn't bring the Bush clan to power in this country, the Christian right did.

ALL of those groups brought my political leader into power.
-- And wait wait wait... you are saying that AIPAC et al didn't love Bush? get outta here.

[barracuda]

Agree. People of the christian faith have proven themselves to be dangerous and untrustworthy.

No more so than people in general.

In this country, yes, much more than "people in general".

Realistically, they can't even be trusted to follow the precepts of their own religion, and their political naiveté has allowed them to be manipulated to embrace the most hateful aspects of modern American life, including war and prejudice.

The word you're looking for there is "Americans", rather than Christians. Violent, ignorant savages who care nothing for the precepts of their nominal religion: Americans.

There are plenty of Americans who don't fall for the nonsense that was "compassionsate conservatism" and "teach the controversy". Of course, it is my contention that there are but a handful of true christians alive in the whole world.

Christians have a long way to go to show that they can be trusted ever again to think for themselves.

To think for themselves in a way you agree with, you mean.

No, to disavow themselves of supporting war and killing, consumerism and greed - that is, to at least think about following the teachings of Christ rather than the hucksterism of the right wing.

Yes, but Muslims and Jews didn't bring the Bush clan to power in this country, the Christian right did.

Sorry, I didn't know the debate was restricted to who was responsible for Bush.

It's not, in any way. That is merely a symptom of the problem, imho.