Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby Nordic » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:35 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
Nordic wrote:
wordspeak2 wrote:How about "Zionist warhawk wingnuts"? Let's keep that wingnut word in play.

Let's face it- "Israel firsters" is a problematic term.


If they're American citizens, it certainly isn't problematic, but merely descriptive. They're not "America first", they're "Israel first".


First of all of course it's ridiculous. This particular lobby specializes in not allowing anyone who is contrary to it to even acknowledge it exists, so it doesn't matter what you call them. Anything you call them, it will end up prompting the same slurs.

But thanks. You've defined the problem that I do actually have with "Israel first." Although it is accurate, it implies that one should instead be something called "America first." See? And I'm not "America first," because "America" is an extremely abused word of rubbery meaning. And even if it weren't, I'd still be humans first. Small fucking planet first. Let's get beyond the flag-waving nonsense altogether. Isn't the problem here that Israel represents an out-of-control colonial nationalism? Also, consider that many of the people who are likeliest to say "America first" are the same apocalypse Christianists who think America and Israel have identical interests. (In practical terms, by the way, I'm all for America first: assuming it means we should shut down all those fucking bases and bring the troops and the money home.)

I don't want to out-patriot the yahoos, so I'm happy to say, "the pro-Israeli lobby in the United States." That's what AIPAC and ADL are. Demystify them, describe what they do soberly, and you sap them of their power.

.

(Alternately as we've seen you can always just take the Protocols II approach.)



Well I should have been more specific and pointed out that I was referring to thise who are actually in the employee of the United States. Like all those neocons in the Bush admin, and some we have now who actually have dual citizenship. If the U.S. taxpayer is funding your paycheck, you should indeed be "america first" rather than "any other country first".

Other than that I agree with you completely.

And the idea of "america first" chafes my ass as well.

I'm just amazed how all these so-called "patriotic" people, especially right wingers, have no problem with people in high-ranking and powerful positions being loyal to another country rather than the united states.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby AlicetheKurious » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:46 am

American Dream wrote:The use of the term "Israel Firster" reflects a broader trend which chooses to frame opposition to Israeli policies, and US support for them, in terms of defending or protecting US "national interests", and which appears increasingly disposed to criticising apologists for Israeli occupation on the grounds that they are being disloyal to these "national interests", rather than on the grounds that they are enabling a profound injustice.

...it risks abandoning a principled opposition to Israel's occupation grounded in broadly appealing progressive values – it is wrong to demolish people's houses; it is wrong to torture children; it is wrong to shell schools and hospitals with white phosphorus; it is wrong to violently prevent a people from exercising self-determination in violation of international law; etc . – in favour of a critique based on parochial, unappealing and potentially quite vicious insinuations about people's – mainly Jews' – "loyalty". This isn't antisemitism. But it isn't the way to win the struggle, and nor should it be how we'd want to win it.


My alarm bells ring whenever someone tries to persuade people that loyalty to their own country is intrinsically wrong, and imply that it is "parochial, unappealing and potentially quite vicious". This is especially true when the conflict in question is not between loyalty to one's own country and to one's moral values, but between loyalty to one's own country and to a foreign country.

Here Stern-Weiner completely lost me:

It is not, contra Greenwald and Sullivan, "plainly true" that many prominent apologists for Israel are "Israel Firsters". As noted above, virtually all of these supposedly principled devotees of the Jewish state were completely silent on or else actively critical of Israel before it became a 'strategic asset' of the US establishment. As Finkelstein observes, after '67 Israel also effectively became "a 'strategic asset' of American Jews"


He appears to be deliberately, and misleadingly, conflating "Jews" with "zionists", when in fact, until the late 60s, zionists comprised a very small, albeit highly wealthy and influential, minority among Jewish Americans. The vast majority did not accept zionism at all, prior to 1967, and indeed were "actively critical of Israel", or at best indifferent. This, despite a massive propaganda campaign orchestrated from Hollywood beginning in 1960 to glamorize Israel and those who "rose up" [made aliyah] to participate in the ethnic cleansing and colonization of Palestine.

Before 1967, most Jewish Americans considered the US, not "Israel" to be the Promised Land, where they and their families could enjoy freedom and prosperity. In contrast, life in Israel, especially for new immigrants, was quite harsh and often very disappointing, not at all living up to the hype. As a consequence, most Jewish Americans identified as Americans only, and did everything they could to integrate seamlessly into the fabric of American society. Furthermore, up until the mid-1960s America's political establishment treated Israel as a foreign country, and the US' relations with it were both kept at arm's length and balanced with the US' relations with Arab states. In this context, most American Jews strove to avoid any stigma of dual-loyalty or allegiance to a foreign state.

Israel's 1967 war was a watershed: its dramatic, easy conquest in 6 days, over no less than four neighboring countries marked the beginning of a new image for the zionist state. Overnight, Israel was transformed from David to Superman. Everybody loves a winner. Zionist triumphalism became fashionable. The propaganda went into overdrive. Most importantly, with the US President himself oddly subservient to Israel, and with the halls of power suddenly filled with Israel's agents, the stigma of conflicting loyalties no longer applied. On the contrary: Israel acquired a certain mystique associated with the heights of power and influence. Instead of provoking suspicion, those who identified with zionism were treated with respect, and found doors opening before them. Expressing active loyalty to Israel became a career-enhancing move.

As a result of these factors, zionist recruitment and activism in the US at the grassroots level skyrocketed after 1967. Thus, the number of Jewish Americans who became zionists increased dramatically, not, as Stern-Weiner says, that they were "devotees of the Jewish state" who had been intimidated into silence before.

People like Stern-Weiner not only erroneously conflate Jews with zionists, they ignore the dramatic changes taking place within the "US establishment" during the 1960s, which is when the zionists went from trying to influence it, to dominating it, beginning with the so-called "Jewish lobby's" ability to apply effective pressure on Congress, the zionist influence over Hollywood, and culminating with the presidency of Lyndon Johnson, a staunch zionist who had, during WWII, worked to raise money to buy weapons for Jewish underground fighters in Palestine. Johnson's relationship with zionism was mutually very beneficial:

[Johnson's] major political break came in 1948, when he captured a Senate primary marred by massive fraud; his 87-vote margin of victory earned him the moniker “Landslide Lyndon.”
...
Even though he came from a Texas environment populated by few Jews and fewer Zionists, Johnson had worked closely with a variety of pro-Israel figures before coming to the presidency. In many ways, he owed his political career to Abe Fortas, a committed Zionist and the attorney who masterminded his defense in the 1948 election dispute. Fortas remained a counselor to Johnson throughout his career; Johnson named him to a Supreme Court vacancy in 1965.14

In the 1950s, meanwhile, Johnson used his position as Senate majority leader to build up the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee (DSCC), raising money nationally and then inserting funds into battleground states. This effort brought Johnson into close contact with prominent Jewish labor leaders, such as David Dubinsky of the International Ladies’ Garment Workers’ Union, and high-profile Jewish financiers, such as Arthur Krim, an entertainment lawyer who served a stint as finance chairman of the Democratic National Committee.15 Link


In the following taped conversation between Johnson and his confidant Abe Fortas, it's clear that these two zionists, Fortas and Krim, had unprecedented intimacy with and access to the president. It took place in 1968, when Johnson had decided to leave the White House and not seek re-election, but not before taking the pivotal step of selling the state-of-the-art Phantom jets to Israel. In order to justify this, and give some semblance of "even-handedness", he wanted to sell inferior weapons to Jordan, a move that was encountering some opposition from the "Jewish lobby":

Johnson: I've got to make a decision on those [Phantoms]....before I go out of office....But I want the Russians to turn me down on disarmament. I've got a letter on his [Alexsei Kosygin's] lap now....He's not going to pee a drop with me: I know that. But I've got to have that behind me so I can use it as an excuse....I'm not going to give 'em [Phantoms] unless I can protect myself. I'm not going to be a goddamned arms merchant. I'm going to make them [Soviets] be the outlaws if I can.

Fortas: Sure, that's very good.

Johnson: Now that's what I'm trying to do. And this little Eppie [Evron -- Israeli embassy] is the only one that's got sense enough in their organization to see it....He's just as bright as that goddamned [unclear] dog of mine. He catches everything that comes along without telling him....I haven't had one goddamned bit of trouble with...Eppie or Feinberg. They're smart. Arthur Krim.

Fortas: Isn't this fellow Feinberg wonderful?

Johnson: He is just the finest I ever saw. Except Krim. Krim's the best man....Krim's the only one that's like you....I see him damn near every week....because....I just like to listen to him....I let him see every damn document that comes in....I have never heard of one little thing he's ever said.

Fortas: Yeah. Well, he's a saint. Link


So, when Stern-Weiner, Chomsky and Finkelstein mention that Israel became "a strategic asset" of the "US establishment" after 1967, this is both incomplete and misleading: this was not a cause, but an effect, of the power of what was then referred to as "the Jewish lobby" and its de facto takeover of the "US establishment" during the 1960s after Kennedy's assassination. (It is far more accurate to call it the zionist lobby, because its prime purpose was not to promote American Jewish interests, but those of the zionist state).

Below is a fascinating description of the context in which the US' "special relationship" with the zionist state was forged during the Johnson presidency. I post it here in its entirety, just because it's so entertaining (although Halsell refrains from stating the obvious, that Mathilde Krim was what the Mossad charmingly refer to as a "swallow":

    How LBJ's Vietnam War Paralyzed His Mideast Policymakers

    By Grace Halsell


    In the summer of 1967, I was a staff writer for President Lyndon B. Johnson at the White House. I was aware of that year's Middle East crisis but, like most Americans, understood little about it other than the fact that it involved Jews and Arabs. In that year I did not know a single Arab, and possibly LBJ did not either. Like most Americans, I was pro-Israel, Israel having been sold to most all of us as the underdog.

    Everyone around me, without exception, was pro-Israel. Johnson had a dozen or more close associates and aides who were both Jewish and pro-Israel. There were Walt Rostow at the White House, his brother Eugene at State, and Arthur Goldberg, ambassador to the United Nations. Other pro-Israel advisers included Abe Fortas, associate justice of the Supreme Court; Democratic Party fundraiser Abraham Feinberg; White House counsels Leo White and Jake Jacobsen; White House writers Richard Goodwin and Ben Wattenberg; domestic affairs aide Larry Levinson; and John P. Roche, known as Johnson's intellectual-in-residence and an avid supporter of Israel.

    I did not "know," but could sense, that events of great portent were transpiring. I heard rumors of CIA Director Richard Helms sending a warning to LBJ that the Israelis were about to attack, and the president getting word from Moscow that if the Israelis attacked any Arab country, the Soviets would go to that nation's defense.

    I could see the comings and goings of Abe Fortas and Arthur Goldberg, and I knew that Walt Rostow, in particular, had close Israeli connections, and met frequently with Israeli Embassy Minister Ephraim (Eppy) Evron.

    On occasion I saw a strikingly attractive blonde woman who, I learned, was an ardent supporter of Israel and a woman of whom the president was fond.
    Her background sounded like material from a spy novel. She was born Mathilde Galland in 1927 in Italy, where she was reared as a Roman Catholic. Then, when her family returned to her father's birthplace in Switzerland, she became a Lutheran.

    While a student in Geneva, she fell in love with a young Bulgarian Jew, David Danon, who had been brought up in Palestine and exiled by the British for his association with the Irgun Zvai Leumi, a Jewish terrorist group led by Menachem Begin. Danon was studying to become a medical doctor, but spent most of his time recruiting and carrying out secret Irgun operations throughout Western Europe.

    In later interviews with former Time reporter Donald Neff, Mathilde said that as a teenager she saw Danon as a dashing and heroic figure, an activist dedicating his life to the founding of a Jewish state in Palestine. He was a personal friend of the Stern Gang terrorists, led by Yitzhak Shamir, who killed British resident minister Lord Walter Moyne in Cairo during World War II, and the Irgun terrorists who blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946, with heavy loss of life. As bloody as these actions were, Mathilde said, she saw them as heroic. They represented the depth of the convictions of Danon and the Irgunists—and drew her to them.

    Mathilde became so enamored of the Jewish struggle and of Danon's daring undercover operations in Europe that she converted to Judaism and married Danon. Then she, too, became an Irgun agent.

    Reporter Neff, in his book entitled Warriors for Jerusalem: The Six Days That Changed the Middle East, documents Mathilde's role as a young "gun-runner" for the Jewish terrorist group. "As a seemingly innocent petite and pretty blonde out for a bicycle ride along Switzerland's borders," wrote Neff, "she in reality was taking messages and explosives into neighboring France and Italy—to be passed on to the Irgunists.

    Five years after the creation of Israel obviated the need for pretty blonde gunrunners, Mathilde received a Ph.D. in genetics at the University of Geneva in 1953. She and Danon then moved to Israel, where she became a cancer researcher at the Weizmann Institute. After the birth of a daughter, she and Danon separated. While still at Weizmann, however, she met and later married the rich—and 20 years her senior—Arthur Krim, a motion picture executive who became finance chairman for the Democratic National Committee.

    American Jews such as Krim and Abraham Feinberg—a New York banker and the first Jew to become a prominent moneyraiser in presidential campaigns—were by then bringing in well over half of the Democratic Party's funds. Thus it was natural that such fund-raisers would become very important to many Democratic candidates—and particularly to the leader of the Democratic Party, Lyndon B. Johnson.

    LBJ often invited the Krims to his Texas ranch. There also were many instances in which Arthur and Mathilde were guests at the White House, and other times when, for many days running, Mathilde—without her husband—was a guest there. The Krims built a house near the LBJ ranch known as Mathilde's house, and Johnson often traveled there by helicopter.

    The Krims, as well as other Jewish Americans who were closely associated with Johnson, advised and counseled him on the events leading up to the Six-Day War of June 1967.
    On the Memorial Day weekend in May 1967, Mathilde and her husband were guests at the LBJ ranch. On arrival at the ranch, Johnson learned that the Soviets had warned the U.S. that if Israel attacked an Arab state, the Soviets would go to the aid of that state. The State Department was preparing a message for LBJ to send to Israel.

    While awaiting the draft message, Johnson got behind the wheel of his Lincoln Continental and took Mathilde and Arthur Krim for a drive over the hill country. They were at a neighbor's house when an aide brought Johnson a message drafted by the State Department for Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkol. It relayed to Israel Moscow's warning that "if Israel starts military action, the Soviet Union will extend help to the attacked party."

    After reassuring Eshkol of America's interest in Israel's safety, the draft message cautioned: "It is essential that Israel not take any preemptive military action and thereby make itself responsible for the initiation of hostilities." The president strengthened the warning by adding two words so that the sentence read, "It is essential that Israel JUST MUST NOT take any preemptive military action. . ."

    On June 3, Johnson traveled to New York to deliver a speech at a Democratic Party fund-raising dinner. He moved on to a $1,000-a-plate dinner dance, sponsored by the President's Club of New York, whose chairman was Arthur Krim. While at the table, fund-raiser Abe Feinberg leaned over the shoulder of Mathilde Krim, seated next to Johnson, and whispered: "Mr. President, it [Israel's attack] can't be held any longer. It's going to be within the next 24 hours."

    On June 4, Johnson went to the home of his close adviser and friend, Justice Abe Fortas. The following day, June 5, Rostow woke Johnson with a phone call at 4:30 a.m. "War has broken out," Rostow said. The Israelis had attacked Egypt and Syria.

    Mathilde Krim was a guest at the White House and, before going to the Oval Office, and apparently before waking Lady Bird or notifying anyone else, Johnson dropped by the bedroom where Mathilde was sleeping and gave her the news: "The war has started."


    At 7:45 a.m., Johnson talked—for the first time—on the hot line with Moscow. Soviet Premier Aleksi Kosygin expressed the hope that the United States would restrain Israel. Both leaders vowed to work for a cease-fire.

    On that day—June 5, 1967—I walked the White House corridors as the telephone lines and news tickers recorded developments of the first morning of the war that would change the Middle East. I learned that in the war's first hours, Israeli planes had destroyed the air forces of both Egypt and Syria on the ground.

    Unconcealable Glee

    Several U.S. officials in a State Department Operations Room briefing could not conceal their glee over Israel's successes. With a wide smile, Eugene Rostow said, "Gentlemen, gentlemen, do not forget that we are neutral in word, thought and deed."

    At the State Department's noon briefing on June 5, press spokesman Robert J. McCloskey repeated those words for reporters. (Since the U.S. was not neutral but totally supportive of Israel, however, this statement would need—over the next several weeks—endless clarification.)

    Also on June 5, Arthur Krim wrote a memo to the president saying: "Many arms shipments are packed and ready to go to Israel, but are being held up. It would be helpful if these could be released." Johnson got the shipments on their way.

    Walt Rostow, in a memo to the president, referred to the results of Israel's surprise attack on Egypt and Syria as "the first day's turkey shoot." On June 6, in another memo to the president, Walt Rostow recommended that the Israelis not be forced to withdraw from the territories they had seized—short of peace treaties with the Arab states.

    "If the Israelis go fast enough and the Soviets get worried enough," he wrote, "a simple cease-fire might be the best answer. This would mean that we could use the de facto situation on the ground to try to negotiate not a return to armistice lines but a definitive peace in the Middle East."

    Mathilde Krim, still a guest in the White House, left for meetings in New York. Before departing, however, she wrote out a statement supportive of Israel which she asked the president to deliver "verbatim to the American people." Johnson was sufficiently impressed with her comments to, later in the day, read some of them to Secretary of State Dean Rusk. But the president did not, as she had asked, read them to the American people.

    Jordan, treaty-bound to come to the aid of Egypt and Syria if either were attacked, had done so and, on June 7, Israel captured the Old City of Jerusalem. Also on June 7, Wattenberg and Levinson wrote in a memo to Johnson that the U.N. might attempt "to sell Israel down the river."

    They urged LBJ to support Israel's claim to the territories seized militarily. They referred to McCloskey's statement that the U.S. was neutral, suggesting LBJ issue a statement affirming total support for Israel which, they said, might stop American Jews from meeting in Lafayette Square to protest the "neutrality" statement.

    While Johnson never minded getting pro-Israel advice from such close friends as Mathilde Krim or Abe Fortas, he apparently resented advice from relatively minor White House staffers such as Wattenberg and Levinson. Seeing Levinson he stormed:

    "You Zionist dupe! You and Wattenberg are Zionist dupes in the White House! Why can't you see I'm doing all I can for Israel! That's what you should be telling people when they ask for a message from the president for their rally." As LBJ abruptly stormed off, Levinson reports, he stood there, "shaken to the marrow of my bones."

    Meanwhile, on the night of June 7, the USS Liberty, a Navy "ferret" ship equipped to monitor electronic communications, had approached within sight of the Gaza Strip so the National Security Agency personnel aboard could intercept the military communications jamming the airwaves. The president retired at 11:30 p.m., but White House logs reported that at one minute to midnight he got a call from Mathilde Krim, still in New York.

    By June 8, despite U.S. and Soviet demands for a cease-fire, the Israelis were planning one more attack to take Syria's Golan Heights. Perhaps to prevent U.S. intelligence from learning of their plan, despite Syria's acceptance of the cease-fire, the Israelis dispatched planes to the USS Liberty. One roared over the Liberty so closely that the portholes of the aircraft's reconnaissance cameras were clearly visible. Lieutenant James M. Ennes, deck officer, saw on its wings Israel's insignia, the Star of David.

    Ennes glanced at the U.S. flag atop his ship's tall mast. If he could see the Israeli pilots in their cockpits, he reasoned, the pilots could certainly see the large U.S. flag. It was not long after the last of several such Israeli reconnaissance flights, however, that an Israeli aircraft swooped down and fired rockets directly at The Liberty. Rocket fragments and 30mm bullets punched through the heavy deck plating—and through the flesh of the stunned crewmen. Then more planes—with cannon and napalm—turned the Liberty into a floating hell of flames and screaming men.

    The Israeli attacks killed 34 Americans and wounded 171. The ship was partly flooded when an Israeli torpedo boat hit the U.S. ship with a torpedo below the water line. Another machine-gunned the ship's life rafts when the crew tried to launch them.

    Only by a miracle did The Liberty remain afloat. But its threat to Israel's plans was finished. The next day, June 9, Israeli forces attacked and captured the Golan Heights. On Saturday, June 10, the war's sixth day, Israel agreed to a cease-fire.

    It was Rostow who first notified Johnson of the assault on the Liberty. Asked who did it, Rostow said he did not know. Later the Israelis said they had done it, by mistake.

    Johnson sent an immediate report to Kosygin that the Israelis had torpedoed a U.S. ship. Thus the Kremlin now knew about the Israeli attack, but the American people did not. From the beginning, the Johnson administration covered it up. Surviving crew members were separated from each other and the Navy was ordered to make certain that no survivor talked with any reporter—or to anyone else—about the assault on the USS Liberty.


    It went virtually unnoticed. Not only the crew of the USS Liberty, but all Americans were victims. Johnson and most of those who entered and left the Oval Office were oriented toward Israel. For that matter, I too, was ready and eager to believe in 1967 that the Arabs, not the Israelis, had started the war and that the bombing raid on the USS Liberty was not intentional, but a mistake.

    While there can be no moral justification for the White House cover-up orders to the Navy after the assault on the Liberty, from hindsight Johnson's political motivation is obvious. It was the same motivation that led him subsequently to listen to the Jewish friends and advisers who urged him not to put any pressure on the Israelis to relinquish territories they had seized in the Six-Day War.

    In 1967, President Johnson felt he needed all the support he could get to I 'win" in Vietnam. Many American Jews were liberals outspokenly opposed to the war there. Johnson was told if he gave all out support to Israel—which would include ignoring the Israeli attack on the Liberty influential Jewish Americans would stop opposing his Vietnam policies.

    In a memo to the president, Wattenberg, whose parents had moved to the U. S. from Palestine and who was known as a strong supporter of the Jewish state, said flatly that if the president came out with strong support for Israel, he would win American Jewish support for the war in Vietnam. Many American Jewish leaders are "doves" on Vietnam, Wattenberg wrote, but "hawks" on a war with Arab states.

    "You stand to be cheered now by those (American Jewish leaders) who were jeering last week," Wattenberg wrote the president. He added that the Mideast crisis could be "a bonus" for Johnson. All-out support of Israel, he predicted, would "help turn around 'the other war'—the domestic dissatisfaction about Vietnam."

    The support given by the American Jewish leaders "was welcome to the president," as reporter Donald Neff observed, when at every turn he was being attacked by critics, particularly in the media, of his Vietnam policy.

    I was, at the time, a typical American. I was convinced back then that the Arabs had started the war and deserved what they got. I didn't try to reason how, if the Arabs had started the war, they were surprised with their air forces on the ground and how it was that Israel so easily seized all of Palestine, including the rest of Jerusalem. Instead, like millions of Americans, I was thrilled by the might of "little Israel."

    Yet, despite the euphoria around me, what I saw in the White House planted questions in my mind. As Americans we had just passed through a dangerous Middle East conflict that threatened to explode into World War III. There were two parties to the conflict, Arabs and Jews. But for weeks on end I had seen only one set of advisers who could call or see Johnson whenever they pleased. The Arabs had no voice, no representation, no access, whatsoever.

    It was only later that I came to reflect on how America, which devoted so much of the efforts of its "best and brightest" to the problem of Vietnam, had in 1967 quite unwittingly stumbled into a Middle East quagmire that, long after the fall of Saigon, would continue to enmesh U.S. soldiers and diplomats, and project an image of double standards and insincerity onto U.S. diplomacy all over the world.

    Far more than his failed policies in Vietnam, the Middle East policies that LBJ allowed to fall into place in the June 1967 war would remain to haunt the U.S. for decades to come.

    Grace Halsell, a Washington-based writer, is the author of Journey to Jerusalem and Prophecy and Politics, as well as several other works of nonfiction. List

For more details about how Israeli agents were effectively coordinating Israel's 1967 criminal land grab from within the White House, see here.

The so-called "special relationship" with Israel is in large part the legacy of the Johnson White House. It was soon followed by Kissinger's "purges" during the 1970s of the US State Department "Arabists" -- experienced, highly-skilled diplomats with extensive knowledge of the Arab countries -- who were replaced with personnel whose only qualification, in many cases was their absolute devotion to Israel.

By the 1980s, under the Reagan White House, zionists had come to dominate the US Defense establishment as well. See former Senator Paul Findley's 1989 book "They Dare to Speak Out" for details about how serious this problem is, and how much it has cost the US, on many levels. Here's an excerpt:

...In 1984 people known to have intimate links with Israel were employed in offices throughout the bureaucracy and particularly in the Defense Department, where top-secret weapons technology and other sensitive matters are routinely handled.

The bureaucracy is headed by Fred Ikle, undersecretary of defense for international security. The three personalities of greatest importance in his area are Richard Perle, Idle’s assistant for international security policy; Stephen Bryen, Perle’s principal deputy, whose assigned specialty was technology transfer; and Noel Koch, principal deputy to Richard Armitage, assistant secretary for international security affairs. Koch was formerly employed by the Zionist Organization of America. Perle previously served on the staff of Democratic Senator henry Jackson of Washington, one of Israel’s most ardent boosters, and had the reputation of being a conduit of information to the Israeli government. Stephen Bryen came to the administration under the darkest cloud of all.

Bryen’s office is represented on the inter-agency unit, known as the National Disclosure Policy Commission, which approves technology transfers related to weapons systems. The commission includes representatives of State, National Security Council and the intelligence services, as well as Defense. Bryen was publicly accused in 1978 of offering a top-secret document on Saudi air bases to a group of visiting Israeli officials.

The accusation arose from an incident reported by Michael Saba, a journalist and former employee of the National Association of Arab Americans. Saba, who readily agreed to a lie detector test by the FBI, said he overheard Bryen make the offer while having breakfast in a Washington restaurant. At the time, Bryen was on the staff of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. A senior career diplomat expresses the problem State Department officials encountered during that period: “Whenever Bryen was in the room we always had to use extreme caution.” During the controversy, Bryen was suspended from the commit staff but later reinstated. He later left the committee position and became executive director of the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA), an organization founded – according to The Jewish Week – to “convince people that the security of Israel and the United States is interlinked.” When Bryen moved to a position in the Defense Department, his wife, Shoshona, replaced him at JINSA.

After nine months the investigating attorneys recommended that a grand jury be empanelled to consider the evidence against Bryen. According to the Justice Department, other witnesses testified to Bryen’s Israeli contacts. Indeed, a Justice Department memorandum dates January 26, 1979, discussed “unresolved questions thus far, which suggest that Bryen is (a) gathering classified information for the Israelis, (b) acting as their unregistered agent and (c) lying about it. . . .” The Justice Department studied the complaint for two years. Although it found that Bryen had an “unusually close relationship with Israel,” it made no charges and in late 1979 closed the file. Early in 1981 Bryen was hired as Richard Perle’s chief deputy in the Pentagon. He remains in this highly responsible position today.

Perle himself was also the subject of an Israel-related controversy. An FBI summary of a 1970 wiretap recorded Perle discussing classified information with someone at the Israeli embassy. He came under fire in 1983 when newspapers reported he received substantial payments to represent the interests of an Israeli weapons company. Perle denied conflict of interest, insisting that, although he received payment for these services after he had assumed his position in the Defense Department, he was between government jobs when he worked for the Israeli firm.

Because of these controversies both Perle and Bryen were given assignments in the Reagan administration which – it was expected – would keep him isolated from issues relating to Israel. But, observes a State Department official, it has not worked out that way. Sensitive questions of technology transfer which affect Israeli interests are often settled in the offices of Perle and Bryen.

Despite the investigation, Bryen holds one of the highest possible security classification at the Department of Defense. It is a top secret/code word classification, which gives him access to documents and data anywhere in government, almost without limit. A high official in the Department of State explains the significance of his access: “With this classification, Bryen can keep up to date not only on what the United States has in the way of technology, but on what we hope to have in the future as the result of secret research and development.

“I’ll Take Care of the Congress”

Admiral Thomas Moorer recalls a dramatic example of Israeli lobby power from his days as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. At the time of the 1973 Arab-Israeli war Mordacai Gur, the defense attaché at the Israeli embassy who later became commander-in-chief of Israeli forces, came to Moorer demanding that the U.S. provide Israel with aircraft equipped with a high technology air-to-surface anti-tank missile called the Maverick. At the time, the U.S. had only one squadron so equipped. Moorer recalls telling Gur:

I can’t let you have those aircraft. We have just one squadron. Besides, we’ve been testifying before the Congress convincing them we need this equipment. If we gave you our only squadron, Congress would raise hell with us.


Moorer looks at me with a steady piercing gaze that must have kept a generation of ensigns trembling in their boots: “And do you know what he said?” Gur told me, “You get us the airplanes; I’ll take care of the Congress.’” Moorer pauses, then adds, “And he did.” America’s only squadron with Mavericks went to Israel.

Moorer, speaking in his office in Washington as a senior counselor at the Georgetown University Center for Strategic and International Studies, says he strongly opposed the transfer but was overruled by “political expediency at the presidential level.” He notes President Richard Nixon was then in the throes of Watergate. “But,” he adds,

I’ve never seen a President – I don’t care who he is – stand up to them [the Israelis]. It just boggles the mind.

They always get what they want. The Israelis know what is going on all the time. I got to the point where I wasn’t writing anything down.

If the American people understood what a grip those people have got on our government, they would rise up in arms. Our citizens don’t have any idea what goes on.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby sunny » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:45 am

Alice wrote:This is especially true when the conflict in question is not between loyalty to one's own country and to one's moral values, but between loyalty to one's own country and to a foreign country.


Absolutely! It's in our own collective national interest where and how our tax money is spent, for starters. If foreign agents posing as citizens are covertly influencing our politicians into diverting our money for purposes that run counter to our national interests, like starting wars that could kill OUR children, I think the least we could do is call them disloyal.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby American Dream » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:49 am

sunny wrote:
Alice wrote:This is especially true when the conflict in question is not between loyalty to one's own country and to one's moral values, but between loyalty to one's own country and to a foreign country.


Absolutely! It's in our own collective national interest where and how our tax money is spent, for starters. If foreign agents posing as citizens are covertly influencing our politicians into diverting our money for purposes that run counter to our national interests, like starting wars that could kill OUR children, I think the least we could do is call them disloyal.


Here's the rub:

"Our" leaders are generally not loyal to us at all but rather to one elite sector or another. Serving "American" interests in this sense generally means serving elite interests, not "We, the People" in the literal sense of that phrase.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby norton ash » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:00 pm

"Our" leaders are generally not loyal to us at all but rather to one elite sector or another. Serving "American" interests in this sense generally means serving elite interests, not "We, the People" in the literal sense of that phrase.


And as it exists, there is no better helper for the military-industrial complex and oil industry than Israel, the grain that amasses our big pearl from hell.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby sunny » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:24 pm

American Dream wrote:
sunny wrote:
Alice wrote:This is especially true when the conflict in question is not between loyalty to one's own country and to one's moral values, but between loyalty to one's own country and to a foreign country.


Absolutely! It's in our own collective national interest where and how our tax money is spent, for starters. If foreign agents posing as citizens are covertly influencing our politicians into diverting our money for purposes that run counter to our national interests, like starting wars that could kill OUR children, I think the least we could do is call them disloyal.


Here's the rub:

"Our" leaders are generally not loyal to us at all but rather to one elite sector or another. Serving "American" interests in this sense generally means serving elite interests, not "We, the People" in the literal sense of that phrase.


All true AD but that's not what they are agreeing to when they accept the responsibility of elected office. They are hired, paid, and take an oath to serve 'we, the people' and when they fail, deliberately, they are traitors.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:44 pm

American Dream wrote:The use of the term "Israel Firster" reflects a broader trend which chooses to frame opposition to Israeli policies, and US support for them, in terms of defending or protecting US "national interests", and which appears increasingly disposed to criticising apologists for Israeli occupation on the grounds that they are being disloyal to these "national interests", rather than on the grounds that they are enabling a profound injustice.


I agree that there is such a "broader trend." It allows entry for conservative supporters of a "strong" (often meaning: aggressive and imperialist) US foreign policy to nevertheless oppose support for Israel.

AlicetheKurious wrote:My alarm bells ring whenever someone tries to persuade people that loyalty to their own country is intrinsically wrong, and imply that it is "parochial, unappealing and potentially quite vicious".


I think in the United States "loyalty to one's own country" has been rendered not wrong but intrinsically meaningless, because phrases of this sort are more often invoked to demand blind obedience to the state, justify aggressions abroad, or bolster support for policies that help specific interests, rather than the "country" as a whole.

One of these specific interests is to conflate "American interest" with "Israeli interest," and to define both as support for an aggressive Israel that seeks only to seize and subdue, never to make peace (as that would indicate weakness and be the prelude to demise).

Another is to define "American interest" as the ability of the USG to project invincible military force by all means in all theaters of the world.

Yet another is to define "American interest" as control of the world's resources and the ability to influence or dictate the national policies of other nations by USG and US corporate interests. In the area of influencing and dictating, I would include as an instructive example the imposition of US drug policy on the rest of the world, which from a Latin American perspective is a more constant source of destruction than US sponsorship of Israel.

Or the current attempt to impose US corporate understanding of intellectual property on the world.

The US is not a nation occupied by foreign powers, where a phrase like "loyalty" would have a more concrete meaning. Like it or not, those who most readily resort to talk of "loyalty" are the most authoritarian, least tolerant and most regressive elements of our political mosaic, with an extremely specific idea of "loyalty" that would highlight loyalty to the military in an aggressive war, but not make a priority of loyalty to the US Bill of Rights. (I believe you may have a problem with their counterparts in Egypt, the ones who speak of "loyalty" as they commit atrocities against the people, whom they sometimes call "anti-Egyptian" for not kow-towing to an injust state.)

This is especially true when the conflict in question is not between loyalty to one's own country and to one's moral values, but between loyalty to one's own country and to a foreign country.


No country is more of an abstraction than "America." By which I mean to repeat my point: I don't like anyone telling me what constitutes "loyalty." Because those are usually the authoritarians who mean loyalty to themselves, or loyalty to a very narrow vision of what the "country" should be.

Also because, as often as not, those are the ones who are going to claim that loyalty to the US and loyalty to the colonial outpost ("the only democracy in the Middle East") are the same thing.

More valid and clear than the discourse of "loyalty" or "national interests" is the discourse of justice within and among all peoples on a small planet, which I shall continue to prefer.

But I'll try to leave off now, since I've honestly enjoyed the peace between us since the beginning of the Egyptian revolution, and honor you for your participation in it. The revolution is the most precious light of the world. May it soon overcome obstacles and enemies and be realized in full glory.

.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby Searcher08 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:05 pm

sunny wrote:
Alice wrote:This is especially true when the conflict in question is not between loyalty to one's own country and to one's moral values, but between loyalty to one's own country and to a foreign country.


Absolutely! It's in our own collective national interest where and how our tax money is spent, for starters. If foreign agents posing as citizens are covertly influencing our politicians into diverting our money for purposes that run counter to our national interests, like starting wars that could kill OUR children, I think the least we could do is call them disloyal.


I was thinking about people like Rahm Emmanuel and wondering about the reaction if President Mittens new White House Chief of Staff was Valentina Tereshskaya, a Russian-American who volunteered as a civilian mechanic for the Russian Army during the Second Chechen War.

I'm sure there would be no problem with that. :sun:

I think that the Rothschilds deserve a thread of their own. Their role in the international banking system seems both pivotal, yet also from what I can make out, very different than that as characterised by David Icke - ie the top of a pyramid. I don't think it works like that. However, I would far rather that some attention is paid to their role than not .

There are MAJOR issues around the role of this family and the Rockefellers in particular within the modern financial system. I would say they tend to be portrayed as the 'Captain of the Ship' and I think they are nothing of the sort. A role much more like a 'NON-EXECUTIVE CHAIR' combined with 'OWNERS OF THE KEY 1% VOTING SHARES' is probably much more accurate.

Here is an exercise.
Connect Barclays, which is now generally regarded as the most influential node of the highly interlocked group of corporations at the centre of global financial influence - and the Rothschilds. Go.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby coffin_dodger » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:28 pm

Searcher - you might start here, with what is possibly the largest .jpg I have ever encountered on the web:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_sociopol/rothschild14_01.jpg
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby American Dream » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:48 pm

Searcher08 wrote:I think that the Rothschilds deserve a thread of their own. Their role in the international banking system seems both pivotal, yet also from what I can make out, very different than that as characterised by David Icke - ie the top of a pyramid. I don't think it works like that. However, I would far rather that some attention is paid to their role than not .

There are MAJOR issues around the role of this family and the Rockefellers in particular within the modern financial system. I would say they tend to be portrayed as the 'Captain of the Ship' and I think they are nothing of the sort. A role much more like a 'NON-EXECUTIVE CHAIR' combined with 'OWNERS OF THE KEY 1% VOTING SHARES' is probably much more accurate.

Here is an exercise.
Connect Barclays, which is now generally regarded as the most influential node of the highly interlocked group of corporations at the centre of global financial influence - and the Rothschilds. Go.


Here is something on all this:

Op-Ed: David Icke's Jewish history lesson is not Kosher

By Alexander Baron
Jan 28, 2012


Ryde - The latest issue of David Icke's newsletter is devoted in large measure to the evils of “Rothschild Zionism”. Perhaps he should have read some history before he wrote it.

Under what heading is an article about David Icke to be listed? Entertainment? That has some merit. Politics? That does too. In the end, Education seems the best bet, because that is what David needs most. For a brief introduction to the former goalkeeper, sports journalist and Green Party activist, click here. If you have perused his website, you might have visited the book order page where you will have found:

“If you have any questions, comments or suggestions, please feel free” - anyone got any suggestions? The expected response is two words, the second being “off”.

And

“If you are a trade/wholesale customer please contact Linda Atherton at our office address above for our trade/wholesale rates.”


This begs the question, if Icke's revealed truths are so outrageous, why does he have any distribution at all, for surely the all powerful octopus of Rothschild Zionism would find some way to scupper it, even in the age of the Internet.

If the truth be told, like his American counterpart Alex Jones, Icke is making a comfortable living out of peddling his conspiracy literature; how else could he afford to hire Wembley Arena on October 27 this year?

Tickets are £55.00 with a £7.15 Service Charge. Heck, you can see Michael Chapman at the Lexington tomorrow night for £6 on the door. Now, to Rothschild Zionism.

According to David Icke: “The first Rothschild Zionist Congress was in Basel, Switzerland, in August 1897, but not many realise that it was originally due to take place in Munich, Germany.”

Really, David? Tell us more.

“It had to be relocated because of opposition from Jewish people in Germany who did not want to be shipped off to Palestine, as per Rothschild Zionist agenda.”

Actually, it was the rabbis who chased it out of the country denouncing Zionism as “fanaticism, contrary to the Jewish scriptures, and affirmed their undivided loyalty to Germany.” And a citation: Jews Against Zionism: The American Council for Judaism, 1942-1948, by Thomas A. Kolsky, published by Temple University Press, Philadelphia, (1990), page 17.

The man behind what might be called secular Zionism was Theodor Herzl, and both his inspiration and methodology have been well documented. On July 18, 1895, he met with Baron Edmond Rothschild in Paris, who rejected his proposals. Herzl died in 1904, and his vision may have died with him. Certainly, the great Jewish financiers - and there were many at that time - had no interest in Zionism. It was only with the Balfour Declaration of 1917 that the movement began to make headway, but it took the rise of Nazism and the cooperation of the Zionist movement with the Nazi High Command to spur the Zionist colonisation of Palestine, and eventually the Nakba. And what were the Rothschilds doing all this time? Not a lot, not in Palestine, anyway, although according to Mr Icke, they were doing quite a lot in Germany, in particular bankrolling Hitler.

If that sounds somewhat implausible, it is because Mr Icke subscribes to the Grand Conspiracy theory of history; elsewhere he writes: “the German region of Bavaria comes up again and again - the home of the infamous Bavarian Illuminati of Adam Weishaupt (who today I would be call a Rothschild Zionist).”

So, the Bavarian Illuminati was based in Bavaria? If it had been based in Lancashire, there would indeed have been a mystery, but in 1776 when the Order of the Illuminati was founded, there was no such entity as Zionism, and Adam Weishaupt was an academic who had a Jesuit education, so that kind of rules out Jews completely, doesn't it? Only in the rational universe!

Mr Icke also ropes in Larry Silverstein who is identified as yet another Rothschild Zionist rather than a New York landlord. Did someone mention New York? 9/11? Yes, you guessed right, but before you read what Mr Icke has to offer on the collapse of the Twin Towers and Building 7, read this.

There is an alternative history of the Rothschild's currently being offered for sale: The World's Banker: a History of the House of Rothschild by Niall Ferguson will set you back £30. Put out by a mainstream publisher, it has 1,040 pages of text and 200 pages of references. Yes David, footnotes, that means the author actually did some research before he put pen to paper. You might like to try it sometime.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/318602
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby Searcher08 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:34 pm

Alexander Baron is really worth NOT spending the valuable resources of time and attention on. I would like the thirty seconds back I spent reading his 9-11 well-poisoning Likudnik talking points.

Larry Silverstein is just a New York landlord.

That quote made my day.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby American Dream » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:47 pm

Searcher08 wrote:Alexander Baron is really worth NOT spending the valuable resources of time and attention on. I would like the thirty seconds back I spent reading his 9-11 well-poisoning Likudnik talking points.

Larry Silverstein is just a New York landlord.

That quote made my day.


Entirely predictable that you avoid the actual content of the article by making a sweeping ad hominem and/or cherrypicking one fragment of a quote which you then misrepresent.

This is a repeated pattern on your part, and not an intellectually sound way of defending Icke and/or his sort of Rothschild Theory...
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby Sounder » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:56 pm

These messengers are no doubt creepy people because Jesuits only allow creepy people to speak truth. It's a primary method for keeping the rubes in line.


http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum ... 067686/pg1

During the Order’s Suppression from 1773 to 1814 by Pope Clement XIV, General Ricci [Eighteenth Superior General of the Society of Jesus, 1758 - 1775] created the Order of the Illuminati with his soldier, Adam Weishaupt, uniting the House of Rothschild with the Society of Jesus.


G. B. Nicolini: „History of the Jesuits: Their Origin, Progress, Doctrines, and Designs”, (London: Henry G. Bohn, 1889) pp. 356, 357.

Jesuit Adam Weishaupt, 1748 – 1811
Founder of the Illuminati, 1776

Born at Ingolstadt, Germany, in the heart of Roman Catholic Bavaria from which originated the Order’s Thirty Years’ War (1618-1648), Adam Weishaupt, a White German Gentile, was educated by the Jesuits; in 1775 he became a notorious professor of the Vatican’s murderous Canon Law, including the evil, Counter-Reformation Council of Trent. Since Pope Clement XIV’s Bull of Extinction was not enforced in Lutheran Germany, the Order flourished at its University of Ingolstadt, out of which Weishaupt established the Illuminati in 1776 and joined the Grand Orient Masonic Lodge in 1777. He united the magnificent financial empire of the Cabalistic, Masonic, Jewish House of Rothschild, the „Guardians of the Vatican’s Treasury,” with the opulence of the international and secret, anti-Jewish Race, primarily White Gentile Society of Jesus.


Nesta H. Webster: „Secret Societies and Subversive Movements”, (South Pasadena, California: Emissary Publications, 1988; originally published in 1924).
Quoting:

„Weishaupt and his fellow Jesuits cut off the income to the Vatican by launching and leading the French Revolution; by directing Napoleon’s conquest of Catholic Europe [as the Order would do with Hitler]; by the revolt against the Church, led by such priests as Father Hidalgo, in Mexico and Latin America; by eventually having Napoleon throw Pope Pius VII in jail at Avignon until he agreed, as the price for his release, to reestablish the Jesuit Order. This Jesuit war on the Vatican was terminated by the Congress of Vienna and by the secret, 1822, Treaty of Verona. . . . Ever since, the Rothschilds have been the fiscal agents of the Vatican.”


Emanuel M. Josephson, Jewish American Physician & Historian: „The “Federal” Reserve Conspiracy & Rockefellers”, 1968
Quoting:

You'll also find ex British Intelligence officier Dr John Coleman expose how the Rothschilds and even the Rockefellers wealth simply doesn't come close to some of the members of the Committee of 300 which is controlled by the Order of the Garter, Pilgrim Society, all inner cores of the SMOM!


[...]

The Jews were bought into positions of power within Banking back in 1066 by the Norman Anglo-Saxon Monarchs. For this they accepted being controlled. Remember that the Law of Banking is known as International Maritime Admiralty Law. This Maritime Law was based on VATICAN Canon Law. All the "War Banks" known as Central banks get controlled from SMOM controlled Switzerland. The Federal Reserve pays the Bank of England which finally ends up in the Swiss Bank of International Settlements. All you need to do is study the SMOM and its members then look whos who in Banking.

Craig Oxley



The Jesuit controlled SMOM has a permanent observer status at the UN. Who created the CFR which created the UN?
The SMOM.
The Jesuits control the CFR.

the Rothschilds are simply Court Jews for the Papacy and always will be unless they play up, then the Papacy will simply annilate them by any means necessary. If you look at whats going on in this world properly you can see the Roman Catholic control quite clearly. The Rothschilds have been under the Black Pope's thumb since the 18th Century. Be careful of the many diversionists out there playing with your mind. The Jesuit ALWAYS control both sides.

When you put money in the bank does the bank own that money or can you remove it and place it in another bank or under your matress? Yes if theres a crash you can loose your money but the Jesuit will never loose his money. Remember the whole banking system is fully controlled by the SOVEREIGN MILITARY ORDER OF MALTA and has been for eons. Switzerland is their Banking HQ closely followed by 'The City', NYNY and Dubai. Rothschild is subordinate to the JESUITS and the SMOM commanders period. You need to understand how the Jews were granted the positions of power within the SMOM Banking. Look to 1066 and the agreement with them being ruled by the Norman Anglo-Saxon monarchs. These jews have their uses to the Jesuit, the Jesuit isn't stupid, he will utilise what he can to make his power cemented and stronger. The 4th vow Jesuits are the most organised of any order known and the most powerful.

What do you hear daily? ROTHSCHILD, ROTHSCHILD. What didn't you hear about much at all until recently? THE JESUITS and THE SUPERIOR GENERAL. For that matter the SMOM still are kept pretty much quiet in the infowars.

The Council on Foreign Relations was created by the Sovereign Military Order of Malta back in 1921 after their creation of the Royal Institute of International Affairs in 1919. Both of these control the 1868 corporation known as the United States. Both are arms of the SMOM via their inner cores within 'The City' known as Pilgrim Society, Order of the Garter and Committee of 300. The CFR created the United Nations. Now notice how the SMOM have PERMANENT OBSERVER STATUS within the United Nations.

Look to the likes of New York Jesuit Joseph O Hare whos a CFR! It is correct theres many Labor Masonic Zionists within the CFR but remember also they are MASONIC which itself means subordinate to the Jesuit Superior General who controls all of Freemasonry, again thanks to Adam Weishaupt.

If you look at 'The George Town Law Journal, Vol 71: pages 1179-1200' you will see its stated the Norman and Anglo-Saxon Kings own the Jews. It states that Jews are controlled by Gt Britain. It also states the Talmud is now law of the land as of 1066 and its enforced by the Pop
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby slimmouse » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:16 pm

[
American Dream wrote:Entirely predictable that you avoid the actual content of the article by making a sweeping ad hominem and/or cherrypicking one fragment of a quote which you then misrepresent.


I guess you dont see how rich that sounds coming from someone like yourself with your incessant references to reptoid imagery and similiar mockery whenever Icke is mentioned around here ? Or even when he isnt, as you swing into action with your miraculously plucked articles - where did you find that Rothschilds is code for antismite stuff by the way at such short notice ?

And since many things appear to further escape your attention, I just wonder who is suggesting that we "liberate/demonise/bomb to shit/assassinate/ marginalise etc ad infinitum, the few remaining obstacles to globally instituted fractional reserve lending - which surely, along with energy cartel domination represent the biggest burdens to the human race, that you, apparently are so keen to help ?
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby Searcher08 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:22 pm

American Dream wrote:
Searcher08 wrote:Alexander Baron is really worth NOT spending the valuable resources of time and attention on. I would like the thirty seconds back I spent reading his 9-11 well-poisoning Likudnik talking points.

Larry Silverstein is just a New York landlord.

That quote made my day.


Entirely predictable that you avoid the actual content of the article by making a sweeping ad hominem and/or cherrypicking one fragment of a quote which you then misrepresent.

This is a repeated pattern on your part, and not an intellectually sound way of defending Icke and/or his sort of Rothschild Theory...


I suggest you re-read what I posted as I made a distinction between Icke's views and my own, which seems to have eluded you. It appears to be a repeating pattern of yours that any post I have with a word Icke in it you end up misquoting or posting Icke reptilian cartoons! Is this a model for 'critical thinking'?

There are major important issues with the role of Rothschilds, regardless of what David Icke says about them . YOU then started talking about Icke.

To go back (again) to my post - I posed a question -
Connection a Barclays and a Rothschilds dot?


Sorry, my post was about the Rothschilds, not about David Icke - did you even read the nonsense Baron wrote on 9/11? I followed the link YOU provided. Its faux-left garbage - like Cockburn on 9-11. Going to a link that YOU provide and then being called intellectually dishonest for saying it is (not even LIHOP) rubbish??

You can get more interesting information on the Rothschilds by reading Wiki. It is actually a really good article.

BTW saying that someone is writing bollox is not always an ad hominem. I would have trusted that you saw the self-evident nature of Baron's writing WRT 9-11. GTFO :lol2:
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