NLP: Roots and Offshoots and Ecosystem

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Re: NLP: Roots and Offshoots and Ecosystem

Postby Searcher08 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:08 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:I don't think he's wrong that NLP got very promptly rolled up into a fantastic array of New Age horseshit, though. The term itself is of course problematic because it's such a slippery umbrella word.

I also don't think his lineage is that far off, look at Gloria Steinem's career (or the third episode of Century of the Self.)


Much of this is very subjective, but I would say that the Grinder side of NLP went through a real growth phase because it felt in tune with two aspects of the 80s -
Tom Peters energetic entrepreneurial side - the school of us who felt that business could make a huge positive difference - an enterprise which I am much less convinced in 2012
and a non-hippy embracing of other cultures way of seeing the world - Grinder was REALLY into modelling Congolese drumming (the magnificent Titos Sompa) and was lightyears ahead of the curve IMHO.


The New Age airhead brigade IIRC were much more into channeling Ramtha at that point.

Tony Robbins paid Bandler a fortune BTW. Bandler was very unimpressed with what he saw as Robbins taking his IP without permission (and making a ton of $$$ from it).
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Re: NLP: Roots and Offshoots and Ecosystem

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:19 pm

Well, Robbins did the world a favor because he's a far better teacher than Bandler. That video is fantastic - both Robbins and especially the drumming.

Agreed that we're in very subjective territory, though. Adam Curtis is problematic in his own right, and surely my own conception of history is no different.

I think the problem with "business making a huge difference" is that in game theory terms, the incentives make it imperative to fake it, without incurring any of the overhead / sunk costs of actually Walking The Walk. Since the only real public proof necessary is convincing a majority of the consumer public you're "good guys," that becomes a PR project instead of any actual social work.

You make a good point re: Ramtha and I think it clarifies, for me, that the New Age / NLP hybridization process was exactly as superficial as corporate activism. The NLP was offered up as a surface gloss to justify exactly what they were already doing -- just like modern day Quantum Field Healing stuff goes about a single inch deep into the actual fields of Quantum Physics.
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Re: NLP: Roots and Offshoots and Ecosystem

Postby Elihu » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:24 pm

What is NLP?
Co-creator Richard Bandler says "the study of the structure and processes of subjective experience"

At the gate they paused, half frightened to go on but Clover led the way in. They tiptoed up to the house, and such animals as were tall enough peered in at the dining-room window. There, round the long table, sat half a dozen farmers and half a dozen of the more eminent pigs, Napoleon himself occupying the seat of honour at the head of the table. The pigs appeared completely at ease in their chairs The company had been enjoying a game of cards but had broken off for the moment, evidently in order to drink a toast. A large jug was circulating, and the mugs were being refilled with beer. No one noticed the wondering faces of the animals that gazed in at the window.

Mr. Pilkington, of Foxwood, had stood up, his mug in his hand. In a moment, he said, he would ask the present company to drink a toast. But before doing so, there were a few words that he felt it incumbent upon him to say.

It was a source of great satisfaction to him, he said — and, he was sure, to all others present — to feel that a long period of mistrust and misunderstanding had now come to an end. There had been a time — not that he, or any of the present company, had shared such sentiments — but there had been a time when the respected proprietors of Animal Farm had been regarded, he would not say with hostility, but perhaps with a certain measure of misgiving, by their human neighbours. Unfortunate incidents had occurred, mistaken ideas had been current. It had been felt that the existence of a farm owned and operated by pigs was somehow abnormal and was liable to have an unsettling effect in the neighbourhood. Too many farmers had assumed, without due enquiry, that on such a farm a spirit of licence and indiscipline would prevail. They had been nervous about the effects upon their own animals, or even upon their human employees. But all such doubts were now dispelled. Today he and his friends had visited Animal Farm and inspected every inch of it with their own eyes, and what did they find? Not only the most up-to-date methods, but a discipline and an orderliness which should be an example to all farmers everywhere. He believed that he was right in saying that the lower animals on Animal Farm did more work and received less food than any animals in the county. Indeed, he and his fellow-visitors today had observed many features which they intended to introduce on their own farms immediately.

He would end his remarks, he said, by emphasising once again the friendly feelings that subsisted, and ought to subsist, between Animal Farm and its neighbours. Between pigs and human beings there was not, and there need not be, any clash of interests whatever. Their struggles and their difficulties were one. Was not the labour problem the same everywhere? Here it became apparent that Mr. Pilkington was about to spring some carefully prepared witticism on the company, but for a moment he was too overcome by amusement to be able to utter it. After much choking, during which his various chins turned purple, he managed to get it out: ‘If you have your lower animals to contend with,’ he said, ‘we have our lower classes!’ This bon mot set the table in a roar; and Mr. Pilkington once again congratulated the pigs on the low rations, the long working hours, and the general absence of pampering which he had observed on Animal Farm.

And now, he said finally, he would ask the company to rise to their feet and make certain that their glasses were full. ‘Gentlemen,’ concluded Mr. Pilkington, ‘gentlemen, I give you a toast: To the prosperity of Animal Farm!’

There was enthusiastic cheering and stamping of feet. Napoleon was so gratified that he left his place and came round the table to clink his mug against Mr. Pilkington's before emptying it. When the cheering had died down, Napoleon, who had remained on his feet, intimated that he too had a few words to say.

Like all of Napoleon's speeches, it was short and to the point. He too, he said, was happy that the period of misunderstanding was at an end. For a long time there had been rumours — circulated, he had reason to think, by some malignant enemy — that there was something subversive and even revolutionary in the outlook of himself and his colleagues. They had been credited with attempting to stir up rebellion among the animals on neighbouring farms. Nothing could be further from the truth! Their sole wish, nowand in the past, was to live at peace and in normal business relations with their neighbours. This farm which he had the honour to control, he added, was a co-operative enterprise. The title-deeds, which were in his own possession, were owned by the pigs jointly.

He did not believe, he said, that any of the old suspicions still lingered, but certain changes had been made recently in the routine of the farm which should have the effect of promoting confidence stiff further. Hitherto the animals on the farm had had a rather foolish custom of addressing one another as ‘Comrade.’ This was to be suppressed. There had also been a very strange custom, whose origin was unknown, of marching every Sunday morning past a boar's skull which was nailed to a post in the garden. This, too, would be suppressed, and the skull had already been buried. His visitors might have observed, too, the green flag which flew from the masthead. If so, they would perhaps have noted that the white hoof and horn with which it had previously been marked had now been removed. It would be a plain green flag from now onwards.

He had only one criticism, he said, to make of Mr. Pilkington's excellent and neighbourly speech. Mr. Pilkington had referred throughout to ‘Animal Farm.’ He could not of course know — for he, Napoleon, was only now for the first time announcing it — that the name ‘Animal Farm’ had been abolished. Henceforward the farm was to be known as ‘The Manor Farm’ — which, he believed, was its correct and original name.

‘Gentlemen,’ concluded Napoleon, ‘I will give you the same toast as before, but in a different form. Fill your glasses to the brim. Gentlemen, here is my toast: To the prosperity of The Manor Farm! ’

There was the same hearty cheering as before, and the mugs were emptied to the dregs. But as the animals outside gazed at the scene, it seemed to them that some strange thing was happening. What was it that had altered in the faces of the pigs? Clover's old dim eyes flitted from one face to another. Some of them had five chins, some had four, some had three. But what was it that seemed to be melting and changing? Then, the applause having come to an end, the company took up their cards and continued the game that had been interrupted, and the animals crept silently away.

But they had not gone twenty yards when they stopped short. An uproar of voices was coming from the farmhouse. They rushed back and looked through the window again. Yes, a violent quarrel was in progress. There were shoutings, bangings on the table, sharp suspicious glances, furious denials. The source of the trouble appeared to be that Napoleon and Mr. Pilkington had each played an ace of spades simultaneously.

Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
But take heart, because I have overcome the world.” John 16:33
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Re: NLP: Roots and Offshoots and Ecosystem

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:30 pm

^^Why did you attribute Grinder's quote to Bandler?
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Re: NLP: Roots and Offshoots and Ecosystem

Postby Searcher08 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:00 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:Well, Robbins did the world a favor because he's a far better teacher than Bandler. That video is fantastic - both Robbins and especially the drumming.

Agreed that we're in very subjective territory, though. Adam Curtis is problematic in his own right, and surely my own conception of history is no different.


The whole notion of personal change having to be horrendous involved and full of words is so elegantly torpedoed by Robbins in that vid.

One of the things Grinder found when modelling IIRC was that Congolese drumming is done in a state of peripheral vision, deep physical relaxation and internal silence. To me it is an example of the class of expereinces which cannot be filly entered into while critical thinking is present, that state typically involving foveal vision, tension and internal dialogue :mrgreen:

Wombaticus Rex wrote:I think the problem with "business making a huge difference" is that in game theory terms, the incentives make it imperative to fake it, without incurring any of the overhead / sunk costs of actually Walking The Walk. Since the only real public proof necessary is convincing a majority of the consumer public you're "good guys," that becomes a PR project instead of any actual social work.

:( sometimes Truth can be painful to read. I have seen a deeply humane customer-service driven director transform a company which was a basket case in the customer relations department into a star - the company then performs so well it is swallowed by MegaCorp who offshore all customer service to Bangalore... and a mass customer exodus.
Doing business consulting for a company who cares about what it does can be a brilliant experience but I noticed that there was a huge shift from the era when corporates ruled to the era (Apple notwithstanding) when finance ruled.
The idea of using organisational and leadership skills to assist a Robbers, Crooks and Thieves Private Equity Fund Number 23 fills me with Ewwwwww.



Wombaticus Rex wrote:You make a good point re: Ramtha and I think it clarifies, for me, that the New Age / NLP hybridization process was exactly as superficial as corporate activism. The NLP was offered up as a surface gloss to justify exactly what they were already doing -- just like modern day Quantum Field Healing stuff goes about a single inch deep into the actual fields of Quantum Physics.


Bandler had a great story about that - he was on a plane, on his way to give a seminar and much to his surprise the guy next to him pulled out a copy of The Structure of Magic Vol 1 (that Bandler had co-written :) So Bandler decided this was a unique learning opportunity and asked him what the book was about. The guy then lectured Bandler in detail (about HIS book, presenting a view of it that was totally missing the point BTW) - the guy invited him along to Bandler's own seminar - Bandler said the book sure sounded interesting - and came along.
They met and chatted in the foyer... before Bandler broke off the conversation, walked to the podium and started leading the seminar :lol2:
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Re: NLP: Roots and Offshoots and Ecosystem

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:04 am

It's always fascinated me that both RAW and Erickson were polio survivors. I also had not realized that Gregory Bateson and Margaret Mead were the folks who connected Grinder & Bandler to Erickson in the first place -- remarkable, that. Given how often Bandler takes credit for making Erickson famous, I surprised to learn that it was in fact another, earlier author named Jay Haley who actually put Erickson on the national stage with his 1973 book Uncommon Therapy, which I will probably track down for the sake of seeing E's techniques through another lens.
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Re: NLP: Roots and Offshoots and Ecosystem

Postby brekin » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:36 pm

Wombacticus Rex

It's always fascinated me that both RAW and Erickson were polio survivors.


Ditto. I remember Erickson's account of how he started to see people and events differently (more "non-verbally") when he was
confined to bed for all that time. It's fascinating how many extraordinary people had sickly childhoods.
In some ways their later achievements and talents could be seen as compensations they developed during that time.
Definitely blasts holes in "survival of the fittest".
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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