Mansplaining

[jlaw172364]

@ JackRiddler

Exactly. And the youth listen, because they lack experience to know otherwise. I believe that a key element to controlling society is limiting what experiences the youth can and cannot have. Thus, the increasing tendency to keep them in school for longer and longer periods of time . . . or else, prison or the military.

[Project Willow]

Ever notice how the men that mansplain are never little boys, homeless people who are down on their luck, Trappist monks, or just run-of-the-mill men who suffer from a lack of self-confidence?

Nope, in my experience as a woman, that's simply untrue, especially with some men who suffer from lack of self confidence, if that lack is compensated for with certain behaviors involving verbosity. I encounter it in my neighborhood Saloon on a regular basis.

What were all my female teachers, bosses, co-workers, older female relatives doing, then, when they were instructing me, taking me to task, correcting me, disciplining me, you know, EXplaining things to me? Were they womansplaining? Femalesplaining? Ladysplaining?

Whenever this happpened, it NEVER even entered my head that "This is a WOMAN explaining things to me, a MAN, I must make an issue out of it." I always said to myself, not in so many words, that "This person either has some experience-derived authority, or reasonably believes they do, so I should listen now, and evaluate later," the same that do with anyone holds court, since everybody has a right to.

If I take two classes on African American history, and one teacher is "black" and the other teacher is "white," are they respectively, "blackpersonsplaining," and "whitepersonsplaining?"

Teachers, bosses, and older relatives are actually in positions of authority and doing their job if they're instructing you. It's the automatic assumption of authority, where none actually exists (or should exist) that is a real PITA.

In my opinion, this whole mansplaining trope is just another divided and conquer tactic for more neverending gender warfare.

I'll be ecstatically happy the day that men stop waging their thousands year war to control women's minds and bodies, very happy indeed.

The men who are doing the alleged mansplaining, are usually wealthy right-wing authoritarian types that went to impose their worldview on everyone else. They have a political agenda.

You really think a woman who has authored 7 books is not perceptive or intelligent enough to figure out she's dealing with privilege as opposed to male privilege?

Now, if I were a woman, then I could explain without fear of criticism. As such, I must resort to my shameful mansplaining.

How is it that you came to value your assumptions about the fears of women over the actual fears of women, that women themselves describe, such as in the article?

[jlaw172364]

Well, I'm not denying the validity of your personal experience, and I'm not so completely insensitive as to have no clue what women are talking about when the refer to "mansplaining."

But I'm really not a fan of the genderification of power-over hiearchies, as if ALL men dominate ALL women. Maybe it's because my family has a lot of verbal, assertive women who constantly hold court, thus balancing out the males. Maybe it's because I've seen plenty of women rise to positions of authority and wield power over men, and then adopt abusive behaviors that are attributed solely to men by the mass media. I've had women sexually harass me (at work and school), grab my ass (at work), grab my genitals (socially, at a bar, with no pretext), pressure me about having sex before I felt like it (on a first date), question my sexuality / character if I don't show or reciprocate interest (led to me getting fired from one job).

Also, a good friend got involved with a sociopathic woman (sociopaths typically don't come right out and announce their pathology, and if you're in love with them, it blinds you even more) and now he pays child support to her so she can mis-raise his kids, whom he rarely he gets to see, and that of two other men, who are both in prison. To her, he, and the children he produced with her, who are now raised by the state under the guise of public education and homework, were nothing more than a meal ticket for her. He had no clue about her past because she lied about it.

Now, I've heard, read, and witnessed lots of stories like this, but you'll never catch me saying that "women" are at war to enslave "men," because only some women do this, and many do it because they view it as a necessity, even if it may merely be an expediency.

When you tell me that men are raising a thousand year war on women's minds and bodies, it insults me as a man, because when you say men, you say ALL men, and this is simply not the case. I have NO desire to dominate any woman, because domination carries a burden and responsibility with it that I find distasteful. I want an equal partner who can take care of themselve, so we can co-exist peacefully, survive, and prosper, not some brain-dead lackey I have to micromanage or do everything for.

There are really wealthy and powerful men and women who are in the business of manufacturing proletarians. Proletarians are valuable because they work, as opposed to wealthy people, who sit on their asses and order everyone around. If all the poor people died tomorrow, the wealthy would starve in a few weeks, since their robot army isn't quite up to speed. How do you make proletarians? You keep the people poor, ignorant, and encourage them to fuck while denying them any form of birth control. Then their kids fill up your fields, factories, prisons, institutions, and militaries. You profit off of everything they do. When there are too many, you mind control them into killing each other in a massive war.

When you say that these men with low self-esteem manifest "verbosity" and hold court about things they no little about, you're basically describing a very common behavior that I've seen demonstrated by men and women. Not everyone can keep their mouth shut. Many people are extroverts and have a very real psychological need to talk and espouse opinions.

In any case, it's my opinion that phenomenon of mansplaining is mostly about some academic types nitpicking up a molehill into a mountain. People have the freedom to express themselves. Telling them they should shut up infringes on that freedom. People should focus their energy on preventing the sombunall (some but not all) men and women who seek to limit the freedoms of other men and women, and just ignore the boors and pedants.

[jlaw172364]

Also, you can be intelligent enough to author a bunch of books, and still be wrong because you become overly attached to a pet theory.

[Canadian_watcher]

It sure does hurt, doesn't it, to be slandered for your gender.

Stop acting like a girl about it.

[jlaw172364]

Yeah, I should also really "man up" and stop being a "dick."

[Project Willow]

Well, I'm not denying the validity of your personal experience, and I'm not so completely insensitive as to have no clue what women are talking about when the refer to "mansplaining."

But I'm really not a fan of the genderification of power-over hiearchies, as if ALL men dominate ALL women.

Maybe it's because my family has a lot of verbal, assertive women who constantly hold court, thus balancing out the males. Maybe it's because I've seen plenty of women rise to positions of authority and wield power over men, and then adopt abusive behaviors that are attributed solely to men by the mass media. I've had women sexually harass me (at work and school), grab my ass (at work), grab my genitals (socially, at a bar, with no pretext), pressure me about having sex before I felt like it (on a first date), question my sexuality / character if I don't show or reciprocate interest (led to me getting fired from one job).

Also, a good friend got involved with a sociopathic woman (sociopaths typically don't come right out and announce their pathology, and if you're in love with them, it blinds you even more) and now he pays child support to her so she can mis-raise his kids, whom he rarely he gets to see, and that of two other men, who are both in prison. To her, he, and the children he produced with her, who are now raised by the state under the guise of public education and homework, were nothing more than a meal ticket for her. He had no clue about her past because she lied about it.

Now, I've heard, read, and witnessed lots of stories like this, but you'll never catch me saying that "women" are at war to enslave "men," because only some women do this, and many do it because they view it as a necessity, even if it may merely be an expediency.

Do you deny there is an inherent power imbalance between the sexes in our culture? Do you deny that we live in a patriarchal society? Do you deny that the majority of human cultures over the last several thousand years have been patriarchal?

When you tell me that men are raising a thousand year war on women's minds and bodies, it insults me as a man, because when you say men, you say ALL men, and this is simply not the case.

Do you deny that you benefit from male privilege? Do you know what it is and how it is expressed? The author of the article is trying to tell you one way in which she experiences it in day to day communications. Yes, men, as a whole, are waging a war upon women. If you don't wish to be a part of that process, you're taking an oppositional tack, shooting yourself in the foot, as it were, to mix metaphors.

Despite the fact that I've lived as a slave most of my life, I walk out into the street and I benefit from white privilege. If I want to see an end to racism, I need to know what that is, and what I can do to counteract it. I can't know that if I only listen to or value my experience as a white person, if I reject out of hand what brown and black people tell me about their lives, or if I take what they have to say as a personal insult. It's not personal, we were all born into these systems. It only became personal with you, here in this thread, when you exhibited the very behavior the author finds troubling.

In any case, it's my opinion that phenomenon of mansplaining is mostly about some academic types nitpicking up a molehill into a mountain. People have the freedom to express themselves. Telling them they should shut up infringes on that freedom. People should focus their energy on preventing the sombunall (some but not all) men and women who seek to limit the freedoms of other men and women, and just ignore the boors and pedants.

It's my opinion that you've failed to grasp the author's thesis and intent entirely. And I'm here to say that, as a woman, I agree with her wholeheartedly, that what she relates echos my own experience. It's not a "pet theory" and patriarchy is a mountain. If you are truly interested in having an "equal partner", then ignoring or being personally insulted when women speak to how living in a patriarchy affects them will make it rather impossible.

[jlaw172364]

"Do you deny there is an inherent power imbalance between the sexes in our culture? Do you deny that we live in a patriarchal society? Do you deny that the majority of human cultures over the last several thousand years have been patriarchal?" . . . . Do you deny that you benefit from male privilege? Do you know what it is and how it is expressed?"

Wealth confers privilege and power. Gender confers advantages and disadvantages. I'm aware of the advantages of being a male. I'm also acutely aware of the disadvantages.

There were periods in history where being male came with actual privileges, as in private laws, as in only men could inherit property.

Today, private organizations can confer privileges: men and women both have formed gender exclusive clubs.

I think that the author has cherry-picked a few anecdotes.

You seem to think that being female only carries disadvantages or antiprivileges.

Are you aware of any possible advantages or privileges you might have as a woman, over men?

[8bitagent]

How is it possible that now and then you hear men and women complain about a woman acting domineering over co-workers, having a "man wrapped around her finger", having a really petty attitude, misusing her power as a cop/gym teacher/company head/etc if only men can be mean and nasty? I mean they are only rumors and whispers...but it can't be possible.

Btw, if there is going to be mansplaining...then there needs to be hagsplaining, hipstersplaining, yuppysplaining, ghettosplaining, backwoodsplaining, yogaaddictsplaining, potsmokinghippysplaining,
religiousplaining, etc.

[compared2what?]

"Do you deny there is an inherent power imbalance between the sexes in our culture? Do you deny that we live in a patriarchal society? Do you deny that the majority of human cultures over the last several thousand years have been patriarchal?" . . . . Do you deny that you benefit from male privilege? Do you know what it is and how it is expressed?"

Wealth confers privilege and power. Gender confers advantages and disadvantages. I'm aware of the advantages of being a male. I'm also acutely aware of the disadvantages.

There were periods in history where being male came with actual privileges, as in private laws, as in only men could inherit property.

Today, private organizations can confer privileges: men and women both have formed gender exclusive clubs.

What kind of clubs? Examples? (Not sure what you mean.)

But fwiw: Today being a male comes with today's version of those same actual privileges (as in only men could inherit property) such as earning an average 20 percent more than a female would for the same work.

Also, what are private laws?

I think that the author has cherry-picked a few anecdotes.

It's a real phenomenon.

You seem to think that being female only carries disadvantages or antiprivileges.

I'd be interested to see the quote from Willow that made you think she seems to think that. Because where I come from, discussing one category of injustice does not imply that it's the only one.



Are you aware of any possible advantages or privileges you might have as a woman, over men?[/quote]

[jlaw172364]

@compared

Pothippykingsplaining . . . . lol!

What I meant about the anecdotes is that you can list four or five stories and make a phenomenon out of it. I mean, when I think of mansplaining, I think of my dad explaining some obscure chemical process from start to finish, when all I wanted was a quick summary, so when he does that, I'll say, "No, wait, start at the BEGINNING, you know, when the universe first came into being . . . ." But I refuse to believe this phenomenon is confined to men. Look at all the women pundits trying to "explain" things to people. Every time you turn on the TV, you have Nancy Grace, Ann Coulter, Oprah, Judge Judy, the cast of The View, Soledad O'Brien, etc. etc. etc. all trying to explain things to people.

The public laws are limited in their scope of influence, and they actually cede a lot of authority to the owners of private property, who are "free" to do what they want with their property, within a few limits. Hence these private laws, or privileges, arise from private property ownership, which is associated with wealth. That's what I meant about wealth stemming from privilege. What wealthy people do is, they band together and form institutions to protect their wealth, and transfer it to their children. Private corporations, private elite schools, private elite clubs, etc. all located on privately owned land. It's like a separate country within a country with its own set of rules. Many constitutional protections don't actually apply on private property . . . which of course makes it easier for certain groups and individuals to get away with murder and other atrocities.

The vast majority of people who buy private property, by small parcels with uniformly designed houses, in heavily regulated areas, and thus do not fully explore the possibilities of private property ownership. Hence, the old money families can plant all the crops they want on their compounds, but the suburban homeowner has to keep his lawn filled with worthless grass or else pay fines to a home-owner's association.

@Project Willow

I'm not saying you've never been on the receiving end of male abuse, or that male of abuse of women doesn't exist. I'm just saying that it is not completely unilateral. Women abuse men too. Men abuse men. Women abuse women. I feel, that if you study all kinds of abuse and subjugation, a clearer picture emerges than if you focus purely on on particular group.

When I hear a lot of women speak of male privilege, it usually amounts to things like earning more money, which some men than rebut by saying that the men are expected to be sole providers for wives and children, which then some women counter-rebut by saying that they're single moms trying to provide for kids, or their husbands are disabled.

It also amounts to things like not feeling safe around men for fear of violence, sexual and otherwise.

All I can say to that is, the world is a dangerous place, and everybody is at risk. Look at all the men who get raped in prison. When I was younger, and smaller, I used to walk around in constant fear of being ganged up on and beaten up or otherwise abused, by kids at my school because of having been ganged up on and attacked. In my opinion, attackers and abusers automatically waive any rights as soon as they act against someone. People have an absolute right to defend themselves.

On an unrelated note, I checked out your art, and those are some amazing (and frightening) paintings you've got there.

Also, you mentioned the women having authority, and that making their explanation justified. As far as I'm concerned, everybody's so-called authority stands on shaky ground. I heeded my mother's advice about a lot of things, but she was definitely wrong about the inability to read in a moving car. Authority is just another social construct designed to control people. The authorities explain things in the way that most easily and expediently allows them to control the masses, and invariably, the explanation is fraught with lies.

[8bitagent]

I cannot begin to imagine what many women must go through psychologically or emotionally in day to day life. Walking through neighborhoods at night, feeling eyes all over them at a restaurant.
The film Silence of the Lambs seems to mostly be about this. And I imagine it's similar to a young black man walking through a mostly white Southern town at night in the 50's, or a modern Chicago district at night.

John Lennon once famously said women are the n-words of the world, and he's right. Man created huge religions that surround the submission and oppression of women. Islam, Judaism and Christianity in particular along with offshoots such as LDS. Not just(but especially in) the Middle East but all over.

But hey, here in America we're ground zero for this crap. This utter piece of shit broke into a house and brutally killed a woman...and he just got only 23 years, with the possibility of parole in 10 years. Damn right I am not always anti death penalty, least in theory. Dahmer got what he deserved, hopefully this guy does too.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08 ... -love?lite

I dream for the day when discussions of gender oppression are rare, and this period is looked upon in puzzlement. Someday.

But sadly, young women often seem to relish in the language/culture/politics/objectification and sexualization of their oppression

[Project Willow]

@compared
What I meant about the anecdotes is that you can list four or five stories and make a phenomenon out of it.

So you are intimate enough with the author to say with authority this only happened to her a few times, or... she just hates men so she has to make this shit up, or we're all just being deceived by our lying female brains, or what?

I'm not saying you've never been on the receiving end of male abuse, or that male of abuse of women doesn't exist. I'm just saying that it is not completely unilateral. Women abuse men too. Men abuse men. Women abuse women. I feel, that if you study all kinds of abuse and subjugation, a clearer picture emerges than if you focus purely on on particular group.

Please stop insulting my intelligence.

When I hear a lot of women speak of male privilege, it usually amounts to things like earning more money, which some men than rebut by saying that the men are expected to be sole providers for wives and children, which then some women counter-rebut by saying that they're single moms trying to provide for kids, or their husbands are disabled.

It also amounts to things like not feeling safe around men for fear of violence, sexual and otherwise.

All I can say to that is, the world is a dangerous place, and everybody is at risk. Look at all the men who get raped in prison. When I was younger, and smaller, I used to walk around in constant fear of being ganged up on and beaten up or otherwise abused, by kids at my school because of having been ganged up on and attacked. In my opinion, attackers and abusers automatically waive any rights as soon as they act against someone. People have an absolute right to defend themselves.

Straight up denial of gender based inequality. Not everyone faces the same types or amount of risk. You aren't listening to women.

As far as I'm concerned, everybody's so-called authority stands on shaky ground.

Except your own. You are so confident that you know more about what it's like to be a woman you can dismiss a group of us here and then lecture us on how the world really works.

I've heard the arguments countless times. They are very old and tired and need to be put to bed.

"This isn't a patriarchy because I have trouble talking to women and I can't get laid."

"This isn't a patriarchy because my mother, sister, girlfriend, wife dominates me."

"This isn't a patriarchy because that feminist was really rude to me!"

"This isn't a patriarchy because men get hurt too."

"This isn't a patriarchy because, did you see those few broads who were allowed to speak on television, to hold elected office, to do a man's job, to become rich?!"

"This isn't a patriarchy because it's classicism, capitalism, individual pathology!"

"This isn't a patriarchy, you're just angry because some man hurt you!"

The last one is my personal fav. Nobody has lobbed that one at me in a long time.

[82_28]

Hey, check this out kids. Found it on unrelated research on house cats!



This is the legacy of our media and law.

http://classifiedhumanity.com/post/3061 ... of-1969-it

It was illegal for a woman to step up to a bar in WA state until fucking August 1969. They could only order while seated at a table. Some places "bent the rules" as the story above points out. But just read it. Draw your own conclusions. Sure sounds generationally built in to me.

[82_28]

Bear in mind just some 5 to 10 years after that article I clipped, "Ladies Night" went into hyperdrive. "Ladies Night" before that was confined to Ladies' functions among themselves. Like tea and whatever bullshit with hats and shit. Then it became liquor sales central. Women could drink free and shit. Men, apparently flocked to this shit. It was before my time and also at a time I came of age to witness the whole cheeziness of it.

Still trying to get the angle on when indeed it happened and how it happened and people cognizant enough to know the ins and the outs other than the obvious marketing strategies -- but just more the bar scene. But there was a definite shift and I would love to know the stories of people who just existed back then rather than news stories. Sadly, most anybody I can find, I can't find. Because they're not there anymore.