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compared2what? » Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:05 pm wrote:brainpanhandler » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:32 pm wrote:
I don't think we are hardwired for much of anything at all. Maybe a fear of heights and snakes and how to suckle. Perhaps swimming. (I love the aquatic ape hypothesis). Within the context of the collapse of civilization and all the life sustaining aspects of it we are entirely dependent on our choices will be survival choices.
That's what we're hard-wired for, though. Like all living organisms, even microbiological ones.
compared2what? » Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:05 pm wrote:Sounder » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:00 am wrote:I wrote: I think the baboons are just more evolved than us in some respects and we are just fatally flawed creatures. That's not resignation or apathy. It's a desire to see things as they are.
You probably can admit though that taking humans as being ‘fatally flawed creatures’ would tend to promote resignation.
Sure. That's why I felt to need to qualify my statement. I guess it's a matter of emphasis and my mood. Ask me tomorrow and I might say Bollocks to "fatally flawed creatures". But if we're not fatally flawed creatures then we got a lot of splainin' to do or at least maybe more than we would otherwise. Programming? original sin? What effect does the judeo/christian belief that we are all sinners have on culture and on the individual psyches of the adherents to that belief? How far back do the "cultural godfathers" go?
FWIW, due to the qualifications you put on it, I took "fatally" to mean something more or less like "fundamentally" or "inherently," in context.
Canadian_watcher » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:23 pm wrote:brainpanhandler » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:56 am wrote:Sounder » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:54 am wrote:
The primary technique used and prime directive of power mongers is to keep the general population driven primarily by passive emotions. [/b]This ensures the bifurcation of the layers of psyche so that they interact in ways that are not up to their potential. Because it is a threat to the integrity of ones personal identity to accept that one is largely driven by programmed passive response triggers, it can be difficult to identify sources that impact ones own belief set.
Can you provide some concrcete examples?
I can.
1. advertising keeps people competing for goods rather than for their own goods and the good of the community.
2. the drug industry in collusion with the medical complex encourages people to consider themselves and their children to be "sick" if they are rebellious, short tempered, disagreeable, angry, easily bored, sad or defiant and then medicates those urges out of them.
3. social networking pretends to encourage individuality while simultaneously punishing it (if your opinions are uncomfortable for others, be prepared to pay for it or keep them quiet.)
4. the beauty and fashion industries are just about as out of control as they could ever be and people feel inferior if they don't spend the money and time to look like everyone else.
5. Debt. debt is a control mechanism that's been sold to the current generation of young people as never before - student loans, massive mortgages, credit cards.
All of the above are control mechanisms that ensure people remain passive - you cannot be a rebel when it comes to the above unless of course you don't want to identify with the 'majority' and you don't need the rewards that come from that identification.
CW wrote:BPH wrote:Sounder » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:54 am wrote:We could however alter our conceptual structures in a way that encourages development and practice with expressing active emotions. If we so chose, we could recognize that coercion bankrupts the human spirit. Then we might at least have a chance for finding our way to a horizontal authority distribution system.
I don't disagree with this in principle. But in practice I suspect the planet wil be a hollowed out cinder and we will be on the verge of extinction before that happens on a large enough scale to matter and by then it won't matter except as a foundation for whatever future those survivors might try to build.
You're an idealist. I think the baboons are just more evolved than us in some respects and we are just fatally flawed creatures. That's not resignation or apathy. It's a desire to see things as they are.
I think that those sentiments are the very definition of resignation.
I see things 'as they are' as well - but they aren't how you see them. isn't it weird?
I wrote:Sounder » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:00 am wrote:I wrote: I think the baboons are just more evolved than us in some respects and we are just fatally flawed creatures. That's not resignation or apathy. It's a desire to see things as they are.
You probably can admit though that taking humans as being ‘fatally flawed creatures’ would tend to promote resignation.
Sure. That's why I felt to need to qualify my statement. I guess it's a matter of emphasis and my mood. Ask me tomorrow and I might say Bollocks to "fatally flawed creatures".
NeonLX » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:52 am wrote:I've never had enough faith in my self to think that I'm seeing things as they really are. I doubt my own perceptions, or think I'm somehow filtering or processing them wrong. Or sump'n'.
I sure as hell don't see sh!t as other people see it. And who am I to think I'm seeing it "correctly", when others obviously don't see it the same way?
I've got a crummy-@ssed self image, built up from years of being called stupid. That transfers over to a lot of stuff.
Sounder » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:31 am wrote:BPH wrote...What constitutes a "programmed passive response trigger”? How does that particular programmed passive response trigger restrict areas of potential inquiry and/or "ensure the bifurcation of the layers of psyche so that they interact in ways that are not up to their potential."?
On rereading the sentence, it seems that the word trigger is extra to that sentence.
Sounder » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:54 am wrote:The primary technique used and prime directive of power mongers is to keep the general population driven primarily by passive emotions. [/b]This ensures the bifurcation of the layers of psyche so that they interact in ways that are not up to their potential. Because it is a threat to the integrity of ones personal identity to accept that one is largely driven by programmed passive response triggers, it can be difficult to identify sources that impact ones own belief set.
Sounder wrote:That phrase referred to the first paragraph and to these next sentences from the second paragraph; Perhaps unintentionally, early rulers learned the value of imposing a double bind on their subjects. By making it very painful to create a conscious model that may be at odds with societal and unconscious programming, most people will instead find conscious ways of validating their underlying drivers or unconscious programming
Sounder » Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:19 am wrote:
By making it very painful to create a conscious model that may be at odds with societal and unconscious programming, most people will instead find conscious ways of validating their underlying drivers or unconscious programming.The happy consequence of this for the ruler is that the subjects will generally access their sub-conscious store of knowledge only to buttress their conscious modeling, in preference to tapping this store to challenge or redevelop our unconscious modeling.
Sounder wrote:(Our King has brought great prosperity to our lands, he must be God)
The trigger part only happens when the programmed response is challenged.
Sounder wrote:To cite a modern specific example, take The Rockefeller Trust spending 50 million dollars to establish the dominance of allopathic medicine. The result is a system where health innovations that do not include pharmaceutical inputs tend to not be supported. Excepting surgery where allopathic medicine does wonderful work. Bottom line common sense though, says that if the ‘empiricists’ were able to compete on a level playing field, both sides and medicine in general would be better off than they are now.
NeonLX » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:52 am wrote: I doubt my own perceptions
I'm somehow filtering (perceptions) wrong.
I sure as hell don't see sh!t as other people see it.
And who am I to think I'm seeing it "correctly", when others obviously don't see it the same way?
I've got a crummy-@ssed self image, built up from years of being called stupid. That transfers over to a lot of stuff.
I wrote:Our big brains, what separates us from the beasts and metaphorically discharged us from the garden, are what make it less likely we can undo the chinese finger puzzle we find ourselves as a species scratching our heads over.
brainpanhandler » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:48 pm wrote:And C2w, yes you can too scratch your head with a couple of fingers in a chinese finger puzzle.I wrote:Our big brains, what separates us from the beasts and metaphorically discharged us from the garden, are what make it less likely we can undo the chinese finger puzzle we find ourselves as a species scratching our heads over.
I wouldn't be surprised if out of a misguided sense of compassion you chose not to grill me on this.
coffin_dodger » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:17 am wrote: it's the overiding premise of each and every member/team imposing their dominance on the losing individuals/teams that leads me to conclude that sport plays a role in the mechanics of power.
The Case Against Competition
By Alfie Kohn
When it comes to competition, we Americans typically recognize only two legitimate positions: enthusiastic support and qualified support.
The first view holds that the more we immerse our children (and ourselves) in rivalry, the better. Competition builds character and produces excellence. The second stance admits that our society has gotten carried away with the need to be Number One, that we push our kids too hard and too fast to become winners -- but insists that competition can be healthy and fun if we keep it in perspective.
I used to be in the second camp. But after investigating the topic for several years, looking at research from psychology, sociology, biology, education, and other fields, I'm now convinced that neither position is correct. Competition is bad news all right, but it's not just that we overdo it or misapply it. The trouble lies with competition itself. The best amount of competition for our children is none at all, and the very phrase "healthy competition" is actually a contradiction in terms.
...
http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/tcac.htm
Sounder » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:31 am wrote:To cite a modern specific example, take The Rockefeller Trust spending 50 million dollars to establish the dominance of allopathic medicine. The result is a system where health innovations that do not include pharmaceutical inputs tend to not be supported. Excepting surgery where allopathic medicine does wonderful work. Bottom line common sense though, says that if the ‘empiricists’ were able to compete on a level playing field, both sides and medicine in general would be better off than they are now.
Is it the way the Rockefeller Trust established the dominance of allopathic medicine (That could not of course be the sole cause) with their 50m dollars that is the programmed passive response? ie, propaganda. Cause that's the part I'm interested in. The Rockefellers through all manner of machinations could create a system of medicine which benefitted their bottom line.
:BPH wrote...What constitutes a "programmed passive response trigger”? How does that particular programmed passive response trigger restrict areas of potential inquiry and/or "ensure the bifurcation of the layers of psyche so that they interact in ways that are not up to their potential."?
On rereading the sentence, it seems that the word trigger is extra to that sentence.
Not really. If you answer the first question which derived from your use of that phrase here:
Sounder » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:54 am wrote:The primary technique used and prime directive of power mongers is to keep the general population driven primarily by passive emotions. [/b]This ensures the bifurcation of the layers of psyche so that they interact in ways that are not up to their potential. Because it is a threat to the integrity of ones personal identity to accept that one is largely driven by programmed passive response triggers, it can be difficult to identify sources that impact ones own belief set.
Then the second question I ask is a follow up to the answer to the first question.
Sounder wrote:That phrase referred to the first paragraph and to these next sentences from the second paragraph; Perhaps unintentionally, early rulers learned the value of imposing a double bind on their subjects. By making it very painful to create a conscious model that may be at odds with societal and unconscious programming, most people will instead find conscious ways of validating their underlying drivers or unconscious programming
Speaking of that paragraph:
Sounder » Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:19 am wrote:
By making it very painful to create a conscious model that may be at odds with societal and unconscious programming, most people will instead find conscious ways of validating their underlying drivers or unconscious programming. The happy consequence of this for the ruler is that the subjects will generally access their sub-conscious store of knowledge only to buttress their conscious modeling, in preference to tapping this store to challenge or redevelop our unconscious modeling.
Shouldn't the part I bolded above be conscious instead of unconscious?
Sounder wrote:(Our King has brought great prosperity to our lands, he must be God)
What exactly is that "trigger" part again? Are they words? Symbols? Incantations?
Sounder wrote:To cite a modern specific example, take The Rockefeller Trust spending 50 million dollars to establish the dominance of allopathic medicine. The result is a system where health innovations that do not include pharmaceutical inputs tend to not be supported. Excepting surgery where allopathic medicine does wonderful work. Bottom line common sense though, says that if the ‘empiricists’ were able to compete on a level playing field, both sides and medicine in general would be better off than they are now.
Is it the way the Rockefeller Trust established the dominance of allopathic medicine (That could not of course be the sole cause) with their 50m dollars that is the programmed passive response? ie, propaganda. Cause that's the part I'm interested in. The Rockefellers through all manner of machinations could create a system of medicine which benefitted their bottom line. That's a given. But how are they going about creating programmed passive responses?
The general populace tends to trust allopathic medicine more than alternative forms of medicine.
Is this the passive programmed response?
Is the trigger illness or fear of pain and death?
populace: I'm sick. I don't want to feel pain or die. Fear. Passive emotion.
Big Pharma/rockefeller medicine: We have the cure for what ails you son and here's a double blind study to prove it.
Populace: yay. (programmed response)
Bifurcation: programmed response supports acceptance of unquestioned conscious allopathic model (not just any port in a storm) vs open eyed inquiry into causes and unconventional cures... blindness to areas of inquiry like naturo/homeopathic medicine?
Cept now they create the sickness as well?
Problem, reaction, solution.
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