Texas Abortion Ban Fight Underway

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Re: Texas Abortion Ban Fight Underway

Postby elfismiles » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:11 am

Texas Journalists: Lt. Gov's Threat To Arrest Reporters "Worrisome"
July 1, 2013 3:58 PM EDT ››› JOE STRUPP
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The Texas lieutenant governor's recent threat that statehouse reporters could potentially be arrested and jailed if their behavior is deemed "not respectful" of the legislature is being called "worrisome" and "absurd" by Texas journalists.

Several editors and reporters who have been covering the contentious abortion debate in the state Senate, which drew national interest last week during an 11-hour filibuster that derailed the legislation, said Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst's threats of potential arrest during an interview Friday raised concerns.

During a June 28 interview with HotAir.com's Ed Morrissey, Dewhurst said that his staff was reviewing security tapes of the Senate gallery to examine the behavior of reporters during the demonstration that occurred as Republican leaders failed to pass the bill before the legislative session expired. Dewhurst explained:

"We have reports and I have my staff taking a look at the video, the internet video that we keep, we store, on the proceedings that evening and if I find as I've been told examples of the media waving and trying to inflame the crowd, incite them in the direction of a riot, I'm going to take action against them. That is wrong. That's inciting a riot. That is wrong. And we have a provision in our rules that if people do not deport themselves with decorum, they're not respectful of the legislative process, one of our rules says we can imprison them up to 48 hours. Of course that was out of the question with that many people, but it is, we take a democratic policy seriously."


Within a day, Dewhurst's office backpedaled from the threat, claiming they had reviewed tapes of the session and found nothing worth pursuing.

Still, several journalists are speaking out with concern that such a threat was even made and the option of arresting reporters even considered.

"As I listened to this, I said, 'what the hell is this, you're going to throw us in jail?'" said Wayne Slater, a longtime political reporter for the Dallas Morning News, who posted video of the HotAir.com interview on his blog. "The first thing I thought of is there are other countries that do this, where they arrest reporters whose work they don't like or who don't report things or act in the way the majority likes. It seemed absurd to me because there are countries that do this and we are not one of them."

After Slater posted the interview video on his Morning News blog Saturday, he said Dewhurst's office called him within hours to backtrack on the comments.

"They saw it and made a decision fairly quickly that they had to pull back from this," he said. "To call and say no media did anything wrong."

But that did not stop other journalists from criticizing the original comments and worrying about what they could mean for future reporting.

"As a newspaper editor, the lieutenant governor's statement I found worrisome," said Steve Proctor, managing editor of the Houston Chronicle. "If any action were taken against a Houston Chronicle reporter, they would be defended vigorously. Any editor is going to consider that worrisome."

He said even a hint of such action can be negative to reporters' work: "I want to be able to cover the news without interruption or interference, so you are always worried when there is interference on the information."

Mike Leary, editor of the San Antonio Express-News, offered similar concerns.

"It's never a good idea to arrest people who are the messenger rather than actual participants," Leary said. "Our reporters are covering the news and illuminating other people about what is going on, something like (an arrest threat) that is not a good idea."

Dewhurst's comments followed the contentious debate on June 25 over a Republican-backed bill that would ban abortions in Texas after 20 weeks without exception for victims of rape or incest and impose strict restrictions on doctors and clinics that provide abortions. Critics say the bill is unconstitutional and designed to prevent women from having access to abortion services.

State Sen. Wendy Davis, a Democrat, drew national attention that day when she conducted an 11-hour filibuster to delay a vote on the bill, which was eventually shelved when the session ended. The Texas state senate is set to hold a new special session beginning today during which the bill is expected to be re-introduced

As they prepared Monday to cover the new session, reporters who had been at last week's debate offered criticism of Dewhurst's arrest threat.

"Obviously [arresting reporters] would be ridiculous," said Jonathan Tilove, an Austin American-Statesman reporter who covered the session. "It presumes there was a riot that was incited. There was no riot, there was a raucous display. And they barely even gaveled to try and restore order. If [the arrest threat] was serious, it would be a terrible thing."

Gromer Jeffers of the Dallas Morning News, a 13-year statehouse and political reporter, called the talk of arrests "surprising" and said it could have a "chilling effect" on coverage."

"The whole allegation was puzzling," he said. "When there is an event like that, I don't know any reporter who is out in a crowd trying to incite riots; we're trying to write stories, do what we do." He later added, "It would have a chilling effect if in the process of legitimately doing our job we had to worry about an elected official or other authorities threatening to arrest us."

Mike Ward, an Austin American-Statesman reporter for 25 years, also was at the Senate session and found nothing to warrant arrest.

"The press corps was just covering what was going on," he recalled Monday. "I didn't see any reporters who were inciting the crowd." He later added, "If they came in and arrested all the reporters for doing their job that would concern me. It is reporters doing their job, there's no crime there."

Brittney Martin, a Dallas Morning News reporter who covered the filibuster, echoed that view.

"We knew we didn't do anything wrong, that we were behaving right," she said. "It is outlandish the idea of arresting the media, just because we are such a staple of the floor every day, every session."

Evan Smith, CEO and editor in chief of The Texas Tribune, an online outlet that posted streaming video of the filibuster, called the claims of media bias "absurd."

"Of course it's absurd to suggest that the media would have any role in stirring up the crowd," he said. "Our job is to report. Of course it would be ridiculous."

Harvey Kronberg edits the influential Quorom Report, an insider publication on Texas statehouse coverage. He said any arrest attempt would likely draw opposition within the state Senate and spark a "senatorial rebellion."

"Senators were on the floor and know the reporters' behavior and that [claim] was completely false," he said.

Donnis Baggett, executive vice-president of the Texas Press Association and a former reporter for Dallas Morning News, also defended reporters.

"We would find it hard to believe that a member of a legitimate Texas capital press corps would have engaged in any activity that is outside the professional norm," he said. "All the time I spent there as a newsman and as a lobbyist, I've never witnessed anything of that nature."

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/07/01 ... epo/194705


elfismiles » 29 Jun 2013 16:10 wrote::mad2 :bleh: :cussing:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co21tQSxRZM


Dewhurst: I’ll pass the late-term abortion ban — and “take action against” those who incited demonstration
posted at 7:21 pm on June 28, 2013 by Ed Morrissey
http://hotair.com/archives/2013/06/28/d ... nstration/
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Re: Texas Abortion Ban Fight Underway

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:00 am

Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Texas Abortion Ban Fight Underway

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:43 pm



Sarah Slamen – Testimony Against SB1 Anti-Abortion Bill in Texas Legislature

How does this work?
[Senator Jane Nelson]
Sarah Slamen.

[Sarah Slamen]
Thank you, Chair Committee, my name is Sarah Slamen. I’m a constituent of Senator Whitmire. I’m here to testify against SB1, because I’m tired of Republican primary politics, misogyny, and greed dominating the state I was born, raised, and schooled in.

And you know, I had some really eloquent remarks written out, but you guys have just worn me down all day. With all this terrible science, and glad-handing, and to be frank I get to move to New York next month, so I don’t have to live in fear of you Texas legislators anymore and what you’re going to do to my education system, or my healthcare system, ‘cause I’m going to a state that doesn’t kill its own inmates. That’s how pro-life it is, up there.

I will thank you, though, first. It was destiny that you would discriminate against us and try to force your way inside the bodies of Texas women. Thank you! For finally working against women so publicly, and not in the shadows like you’re used to. Thank you for every single bad press conference with your bad information. Thank you for every hateful statement degrading women and girls to sex objects, and brood mares, and bald eagles, and leather wallets, like your eloquent pro-life supporters have done today.

Thank you for being you, Texas legislature. You have radicalized hundreds of thousands of us. And no matter what you do for the next 22 days, women and their allies are coming for you. Let’s start down the line: Senator Campbell, you’re an ophthalmologist, so I won’t be making you the expert on reproductive health. We can give you all the children with chlamydia and herpes in their eyes, since we don’t have Sex Ed in this state. And Senator Hegar, you are about as helpful --

[Senator Jane Nelson]
[strikes gavel] I will not allow --

[Sarah]
Excuse me. This is my government, ma’am. I will judge you. [Speaking over Senator Nelson trying to interrupt] I will judge you, ma’am. Is this counting against my time --

[Senator Nelson]
Yes, it is.

[Sarah]
-- the senator talking against me?

[Senator Nelson]
Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

[Sarah]
OK, well I will just go ahead --

[Senator Nelson]
I will not allow you to disrespect --

[Sarah]
-- and talk over her. This is how big of a fraud I knew you were, for being so proud of these proceedings all night. It’s a low bar that you hold yourself to that you [One State Trooper appears in background.] simply ALLOWED us to SPEAK.

And I will speak against an ophthalmologist [Two State Troopers grab her chair.] who says – [Two State Troopers grab her arms. Sarah leans forward to keep speaking.] Everyone on the internet can see what you’re doing right now. This is a farce. The Texas legislature is a bunch of liars [Third State Trooper comes forward to grab her.] who hate women. These men are paid off --

[Senator Jane Nelson]
Our next witness is Gary Oldham.

Sarah: [illegible] so they can tell us what to do with the inside of our bodies.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Texas Abortion Ban Fight Underway

Postby General Patton » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:10 am

Why hasn't anyone mentioned the hygiene parts of the bill?
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Re: Texas Abortion Ban Fight Underway

Postby General Patton » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:24 am


If you listen to the classical music station they broadcast the townhall meetings here, there's always colorful characters that want to "make a statement".

I know Wendy Davis is important and all but why didn't any of the posted links address the hygiene issues in the bill?
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Re: Texas Abortion Ban Fight Underway

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:02 am

if there are no abortion clinics left why worry about hygiene of the non existent? :shrug:


When Things Go Wrong With Mr. Right: How Texas Women Can Mend Fences With Gov. Rick Perry
Posted: 06/30/2013 5:09 pm

Ladies of Texas, you ought to be ashamed of yourselves! From the time you were all tiny cowgirls toddling around in your very first pair of pink cowboy boots, you were raised to do two things: Always act like little ladies and keep an eye on the horizon. You were told that as long as you did those two things, Mr. Right would eventually come along, and you'd be able to spot him when he did.

Governor Perry is your Mr. Right. But not only do you not know a good thing when it's standing right in front of you, you don't even know it when it's all the way up in your business. He's been trying his hardest to be your Prince Charming for 12 long years now, but you keep doing everything you can to run him off. (Everything this side of voting him out of office, that is.)

I am still shocked at your embarrassing display of unladylike conduct at the Texas Capitol the other night. Governor Perry was trying his best to spare you from pesky decisions regarding your lady parts, and rather than thanking him for Senate Bill 5, you got all hysterical. I know it wasn't entirely your fault -- that rabble-rouser Wendy Davis bears much of the blame for getting you all whipped up. She's a bad influence, for sure. But still, you were raised better than that.

And that was just the most recent example of ungrateful behavior on your part. The truth is, whenever Governor Perry tries to take care of everything for you, you act like he's crossing some sort of line. He's only doing what any self-respecting Mr. Right is supposed to do! He's trying to make all of your important decisions for you with his man brain so you don't have to worry your pretty little heads about any of that hard, "thinky" kind of stuff.

Remember, thinking is the #1 cause of wrinkles. I mean, anyone educated in Texas public schools knows this just as sure as they know that God created the world 6000 years ago. That's just plain science. And if you had your priorities right, you'd worry more about wrinkles and less about your uterus, for crying out loud. After all, have you ever heard a man compliment a woman for having a pretty uterus? Didn't think so.

So quit sending Rick Perry mixed signals. Everyone knows you're just playing hard to get. You lead Governor Perry on by voting for him then you turn around and treat him real sorry-like. You know what happens to girls who lead guys, don't you? They get what they deserve and they have no one to blame but themselves.

And what more could you want in a man? Governor Perry is both easy on the eyes and he doesn't want you to think one single bit. You're lucky he hasn't found anyone else who will have him. God knows he's tried. And rumor has it he's laying the groundwork to go a' courting again -- this time outside of Texas. See? You've done run him off, practically.

You need to start acting right before it's too late. Show Governor Perry a little gratitude for his commitment to relieving you of the heavy burden of being responsible for all those confusing personal choices. Look, I know this is a complicated topic and I'm sure you have much more rewarding things to think about -- like pedicures, malls, what's for dinner, and stuff like that. So, I've made it easy for you: I've taken the liberty of developing a three-step plan to show Governor Perry how much you appreciate him.

You may be thinking that since the Texas Two Step is the Official State Dance, a three-step plan is one step too many. I have two things to say to you about that: Thing one -- I've already told you to leave the thinking to the menfolk. Just look at all the trouble it's gotten you in this far. Thing two: After the scene you caused the other night at the Capitol, you can't expect to just waltz back into Governor Perry's good graces. It's going to take some extra fancy footwork on your part.

From this moment forward, you're going to stop all of your bellyaching and hell raising and let Governor Perry wear the pants. That means you have to give him the respect that goes along with his manly gender by consulting him before making any decision that involves your lady parts.

Is it your time of the month? Before you go to the store, call the Governor's office to ask what kind of feminine hygiene products God wants you to buy. And don't insult him with a superficial "tampon or sanitary napkin" question. This isn't some "boxer or brief" conversation-starting game. You're trying to rebuild trust, not break the ice. Prove that you want a deep and meaningful relationship with the governor by getting his input on everything from brands to product features. Kotex or Playtex? Scented or unscented? Plastic or cardboard applicator? But please be considerate and structure your questions so they contain only two choices at a time, because sometimes Governor Perry has a hard time remembering what the third thing is. And whatever you do, don't embarrass yourself by asking whether you should buy pads with or without wings. Wings are always the right answer. You know the old saying: Every time a new state law is passed that further infringes upon a woman's right to choose, a Republican gets his wings.

Need to schedule an appointment with your OB/GYN? Don't be all pushy-like and do that all by yourself. Be courteous. Call Governor Perry to invite him to come with you. But if he says no, don't argue with him -- he's a very busy man. Go ahead and schedule your appointment anyway, then make sure you email him all of the details like the date, time, location, and reason for appointment. That way even if he can't go, he will still feel respected and included.

Thinking about having intimate relations? Hold your horses. First ask Governor Perry to pray over whether this is the right decision for you. But make sure you give him plenty of time. It's summer and Texas is still in the middle of a drought. That means Governor Perry probably won't get to your prayer request until after he's done praying for rain -- and there's no telling how much longer that will take. He started praying for that last summer and he still hasn't had much luck. (But don't judge -- that's not a reflection on either Governor Perry or God. After all, they are both very busy men.)

If you religiously follow the three steps above, you have a good chance of patching things up with Governor Perry. Look, I know deep down you really want him. Why else would you repeatedly vote for him? And since he's already yours, you may as well stop fighting him and just let him have his way. When it comes to things you cannot avoid, you would do well to pay heed to the wise words of Clayton Williams, another Texas Republican who cared deeply about Texas ladies, their lady parts, and bad weather: "If it's inevitable, just relax and enjoy it."
Last edited by seemslikeadream on Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Texas Abortion Ban Fight Underway

Postby General Patton » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:04 am

seemslikeadream » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:02 am wrote:if there are no abortion clinics left why worry about hygiene of the non existent?


Why treat a surgical procedure like a surgical procedure?
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Re: Texas Abortion Ban Fight Underway

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:08 am

General Patton » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:04 am wrote:
seemslikeadream » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:02 am wrote:if there are no abortion clinics left why worry about hygiene of the non existent?


Why treat a surgical procedure like a surgical procedure?



Why treat a surgical procedure like a surgical procedure when a coat hanger will do?
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Texas Abortion Ban Fight Underway

Postby General Patton » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:12 am

seemslikeadream » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:08 am wrote:
General Patton » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:04 am wrote:
seemslikeadream » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:02 am wrote:if there are no abortion clinics left why worry about hygiene of the non existent?


Why treat a surgical procedure like a surgical procedure?



Why treat a surgical procedure like a surgical procedure when a coat hanger will do?


Well, you if didn't need a licensed physician or to meet basic safety standards required for similar procedures I'm sure that would make sense. I imagine I could go into my garage and cook up something better than a coathanger.
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Re: Texas Abortion Ban Fight Underway

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:14 am

Were there more women dying from abortions than killed by the state in Texas lately?
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Texas Abortion Ban Fight Underway

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:18 am

1990–1999: 166 executions
2000–2009: 248 executions
Since 2010: 53 executions
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Texas Abortion Ban Fight Underway

Postby General Patton » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:23 am

seemslikeadream » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:18 am wrote:1990–1999: 166 executions
2000–2009: 248 executions
Since 2010: 53 executions

Abortions are not executions. I'll look for complications from abortions in Texas, though we should set the bar higher than "congratulations, you didn't die!"
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Re: Texas Abortion Ban Fight Underway

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:26 am

General Patton » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:23 am wrote:
seemslikeadream » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:18 am wrote:1990–1999: 166 executions
2000–2009: 248 executions
Since 2010: 53 executions

Abortions are not executions. I'll look for complications from abortions in Texas, though we should set the bar higher than "congratulations, you didn't die!"


of course not......I AM talking about Texas worrying about the death of the fetus rather than the death of a living human being....and do get back to me with the complications....but like I said there won't be any complications after Texas closes all the clinics...then you don't have to worry about hygiene of the non existent and women will be free to use the coat hanger...then we can say "congratulations, you didn't die!" you have no access to health care you're on your own babe
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Texas Abortion Ban Fight Underway

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:39 am

How many pregnant females died of abortion-related causes in 2011? None was reported, while 116 females died of pregnancy complications. The last abortion-related death was reported in 2008. Five such deaths have been reported since 2002, according to DSHS. It says all details are confidential.


Abortion in Texas: facts, figures, questions and answers
By Brooks Egerton
begerton@dallasnews.com
3:10 pm on July 3, 2013 | Permalink

Proposed abortion restrictions have drawn crowds of protesters and supporters to the Capitol in Austin. (Erich Schlegel/Getty Images)

Texas legislators resume debate next week on proposed abortion restrictions. Advocates say they want to protect women and unborn children. Opponents say the restrictions would force all but five of the state’s abortion providers to close, infringing on women’s legal rights and endangering their health. Here is some information to consider when weighing the arguments.

What proposal is now on the table? The main one is House Bill 2. Click here to read it.

What makes HB2 controversial? Three provisions have attracted the most attention:

Abortion clinics would have to begin meeting the infrastructure requirements of facilities that specialize in outpatient surgeries – so-called ambulatory surgical centers. This would mean major new expenses.
Most abortions would be illegal 20 weeks or more after conception. Proponents say fetuses can feel pain by that point; opponents disagree. The current rule is 24 weeks.
Doctors performing abortions would need permission to admit patients at a hospital within 30 miles, in case the pregnant female experiences complications. Some abortion doctors currently lack hospital privileges.
Have similar measures been enacted elsewhere? About half the states have taken some steps like these, sometimes inspiring legal challenges.

How many abortion clinics are in Texas? There are 36:

7 in Houston plus an eighth in the suburb of Stafford
7 in San Antonio
4 in Dallas
3 in Austin
2 in Fort Worth
2 in El Paso
1 each in Beaumont, Bryan, Corpus Christi, Harlingen, Killeen, Lubbock, McAllen, Midland, San Angelo and Waco
How many ambulatory surgical centers perform abortions? Four reported abortions in 2011, the most recent year for which statistics are available. One abortion clinic in Fort Worth recently converted to a surgical center that performs abortions.

Which abortions would Texas permit after 20 weeks? There are two types: those necessary to save the pregnant female’s life or “major bodily function,” and those “performed on unborn children with severe fetal abnormalities.”

Are many pregnancies now terminated after 20 weeks? They were less than 1 percent of the total in 2011. All were performed at ambulatory surgical centers or hospitals, as required by a state law that took effect in 2004.

What is the source of these statistics? Providers must report basic data on all abortions to the Texas Department of State Health Services, or DSHS. They do not report patients’ or doctors’ names. Nor do they say why the abortions were performed.

What was the statewide total of abortions in 2011? There were 72,470 reported, most done within eight weeks of conception. That was the lowest annual total in a decade; the highest was 82,056, in 2006. The abortion rate remained steady for much of the decade: About 16 percent of all reported pregnancies were terminated.

Where were the 2011 abortions performed? Virtually all were in abortion clinics (77 percent) or ambulatory surgical centers (22 percent). Hospitals and doctors’ offices accounted for less than 1 percent.

How many pregnant females died of abortion-related causes in 2011? None was reported, while 116 females died of pregnancy complications. The last abortion-related death was reported in 2008. Five such deaths have been reported since 2002, according to DSHS. It says all details are confidential.

How many suffered non-fatal complications? DSHS didn’t start collecting this data until January 2013 and hasn’t released statistics yet.

How does regulation of abortion clinics compare to that of other health-care entities in Texas? Here are some examples:

DSHS says it routinely inspects the clinics at least once a year and surgical centers about every three years.
Doctors must have a clinic license if they perform 50 or more abortions a year in their offices. They do not need a surgical center license to perform other procedures in their offices.
The public has a right to see inspection records for abortion clinics and many other state-regulated facilities, such as nursing homes. One exception is hospitals.




http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/sfaa/texas.html

Abortion is a common experience: At current rates, about one in three American women will have had an abortion by the time she reaches age 45. Moreover, a broad cross section of U.S. women have abortions. 58% of women having abortions are in their 20s; 61% have one or more children; 85% are unmarried; 69% are economically disadvantaged; and 73% report a religious affiliation. No racial or ethnic group makes up a majority: 36% of women obtaining abortions are white non-Hispanic, 30% are black non-Hispanic, 25% are Hispanic and 9% are of other racial backgrounds.
Contraceptive use is a key predictor of women's recourse to abortion. The very small group of American women who are at risk of experiencing an unintended pregnancy but are not using contraceptives account for almost half of all abortions. Many of these women did not think they would get pregnant or had concerns about contraceptive methods. The remainder of abortions occur among the much larger group of women who were using contraceptives in the month they became pregnant. Many of these women report difficulty using contraceptives consistently.
Abortion is one of the safest surgical procedures for women in the United States. Fewer than 0.5% of women obtaining abortions experience a complication, and the risk of death associated with abortion is about one-tenth that associated with childbirth.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Texas Abortion Ban Fight Underway

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:47 am

General....have you had the need for an abortion? Ever had a (D&C)?? Do you know what that is? I really really wish men would STAY OUT OF MY BODY...unless I invite them
Last edited by seemslikeadream on Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
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Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
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