Let's talk about the universe for a change

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Re: Let's talk about the universe for a change

Postby Sounder » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:38 pm

No, facts are facts. 2+2=4 under every organizing principle humans have. No amount of wishful thinking will change that.
People's feelings are abused by the powerful all the time. How do you think Trump or Bolsanaro got elected? They played on people's feelings (fear, mostly. Fun fact: authoritarian/conservative people are hardwired to be more afraid of change. There are actual, physical differences in their fear centers compared to progressives/liberals), facts be damned.


Ah, we could take these ideas places, but you show no respect so that is not likely to happen.

Dr. Evil wrote...
What is the current narrative anyway? You keep talking about coercion and split model of reality, but every time I ask for details you ignore me or flat out refuse to explain in more detail. It would be really helpful to get a clear and concise explanation of your worldview.


Doctor, the current narrative is detailed because it has the assent and support of centuries of work that has built it up. I congratulate it on its part in improving the analytical abilities and practices of the human tribe, but trust me, it is a stepping stone to something better, if only we begin to realize it's inherent shortcomings.

The details are formed by the Zietgiest not by single people. I have provided plenty of my versions of details in the past, long ago, check old posts. But my essential message is that a continuum model of reality based on relationships is more likely to be healthy for all concerned than is an object oriented split model where everything has hard boundary conditions built into the assumptions.

I also like for (and trust) people to think for themselves so hints can be better than preaching.
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Re: Let's talk about the universe for a change

Postby Sounder » Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:21 am

This is interesting and hopefully can relate to talk about the universe, so a comment or two.


Dr.Evil wrote.......
No, facts are facts. 2+2=4 under every organizing principle humans have. No amount of wishful thinking will change that.


Yes, facts are facts, the Statue of Saddam was pulled down, but those that only saw the cropped photos are handicapped by the intentionally barren context. Facts are facts, yes of course, and they are context dependent.

People's feelings are abused by the powerful all the time. How do you think Trump or Bolsanaro got elected? They played on people's feelings (fear, mostly. Fun fact: authoritarian/conservative people are hardwired to be more afraid of change. There are actual, physical differences in their fear centers compared to progressives/liberals), facts be damned.


This can be thought of as part of the wisdom of evolution. It makes perfect sense that vibrant communities require input from both types of people. People need stability so as to build and internalize the systems that support society and they need dissenters because those same systems that provide stability also abuse society. You make like one is all lilly white and good while the other is bad. Yet as I have said before, the polarity resides within each category rather than between categories.

Wake the fuck up people, we need each other.


Fun fact: The caretaker and assessor of the papers of noted dissenter Nicola Tesla was noted authoritarian, Donald Trumps Uncle.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Let's talk about the universe for a change

Postby Harvey » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:07 am

Seems as good a place as any to post this. To Dr Evil. Putting things back together after taking them apart is also a smart way to proceed.

And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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Re: Let's talk about the universe for a change

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:29 pm

.

Bah, Doc Evil's too much of a curmudgeon/cynic -- and I can appreciate that, as I'm one as well when it comes to stupid human constructs like political movements and/or human power structures. But when it comes to the Universe, there is simply no way for any of us to know what the 'ultimate reality' may be. Certainly not the scientists, and not the theists, either. We're all still guessing. But I don't believe it's nearly as bleak as some of the scientists tend to think right now. Indeed, it may well be quite elegant.

https://medium.com/mandalaex/a-universe ... bb3b455ea9


A Universe Connected

Image

In the year 1202 AD, a mathematician from Italy asked a very simple question: “A certain man put a pair of rabbits in a place surrounded on all sides by a wall. How many pairs of rabbits can be produced from that pair in a year if it is supposed that every month each pair begets a new pair which from the second month on becomes productive?” A question notably found in the third section of a publication called Liber Abaci which was written by Leonardo Pisano Fibonacci. The above question led to a sequence of numbers that the Western world knows as the “Fibonacci Sequence”. Although most accredit Fibonacci with the discovery of this numerical sequence, its existence had been observed long before Leonardo’s lifetime.

Image

With each turn of a Rubik’s cube creates a permutation (rearrangement of color tiles)The study of permutations and combinations has long been a subject of research in areas of South Asia, particularly in India. Variations in numerical arrangements became popular in ancient Indian society and applied to astrology, medicine, music, and architecture. The first notable hint of this sequence’s existence came around 200 BC through the work of an ancient Indian mathematician named Pingala through his work with Chandaḥśāstra (metrical sciences). Following the work of Pingala, various other Indian mathematicians such as Virahanka, Gopala, and Hemachandra contributed work that gave evidence of the existence of this numerical anomaly. Not to discredit the brilliant work of Fibonacci but his most recognized contribution to mathematics, not necessarily his most significant, led to the discovery of a ratio that has scientists in most practices mystified. This ratio, as observed numerically, appears to be ingrained within the fabric of universal order. Before going into too much detail about this ratio, it is essential first to understand how the Fibonacci sequence works and how through this sequence the ratio was discovered.

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One of the most consistent and elusive numbers ever discovered is 1.161803398874989. The Golden Ratio, as it is known to those seeking to discern the underlying architecture of the cosmos, is a ratio apprised in quantum physics and in the overall construct of galaxies. This ratio has been applied to and observed in geometry, nature, and architecture.

Image

The square labeled “2” has an area double of the 2 squares labeled “1”. At this point, the ratio between the sizes does not equal that of the Golden Ratio (Ratio 2:1 or 2), however, as the tiles grow larger by building on the base predicated by the previous two larger squares, the ratio approaches and will eventually equal that of the Golden Ratio. For instance: the area of the largest square of the image above is 21 units X 21 units or 21 units². The next largest squares have an area of 13 units² and 8 units² after that. Both the squares labeled 13 and 8 have a base that’s’ sum equals 21. Mathematicians have added additional geometry to the square Fibonacci tiling to create a spiral pattern. This is known as the Fibonacci spiral: illustrated below.

Image

The Fibonacci spiral is incorporated into a tile pattern based on the sequence. As previously stated and observed in Table 1, ratios calculated from smaller integers of the Fibonacci sequence do not exhibit the Golden Ratio or Phi (φ)(Phi is the Greek letter denoting 1.61803…). As the numbers become larger throughout the calculation, the more a Fibonacci spiral resembles the Golden Spiral. A Golden spiral is based on geometrical square tiling similar to figure 1 except all correlating tiles are designed to have a ratio of φ (Phi) as seen below.

Image

Sequence 1: a self-similar (mathematically identical continuous pattern) illustration of the Golden Spiral. Sequence 1 is a Golden spiral continuously winding through Golden-square tiles. This also resembles a Fib spiral at larger values as they approach affinity. Sequences, tiles, and spirals may all exhibit φ, but there are plenty of different ways to observe this ratio. The golden ratio isn’t just a number or proportion; it is a reminder of the inherent connectivity that exists within our universe. The existence of the Fibonacci sequence and Golden ratio preceded mathematics as it can be observed in nature within human DNA and even within the anatomical structure of certain flowers. Now that some fundamentals have been discussed, let’s dive into a few real-world examples.

Although mathematics has deep-seeded roots in human history, DNA and mammalian procreation preceded human existence and therefore arithmetic. In 2005, a team of genealogists led by Luke Hutchison stumbled across some interesting results. In their research article entitled “Growing the Family Tree: The Power of DNA in Reconstructing Family Relationships” Hutchinson et al. retroactively studied the number of ancestors that could potentially be the source of specific genes on a particular, heritable X chromosome (sex chromosome carried by both parents). This study used advanced genomic technology to discover what Leonardo Pisano Fibonacci had centuries ago, that in a controlled environment the Fibonacci sequence and Phi may be witnessed within aspects of mammalian lineage. This is one example of how the Fibonacci sequence appears to shape natural order, but another biological example is found in the anatomy of some flowers.

Image

Image

The disk florets of sunflowers have an arrangement that illustrates a spiral pattern that has Fibonacci undertones. In sunflowers, the spirals that are created within the disk florets’ pattern (reproductive buds at the center of the flower) often have 34 spiral turning clockwise and 21 moving counter clockwise. Another Fibonacci anomaly may be found in the number of petals on certain flowers. For instance, Lillies have 3 petals, Roses have 8 interior plus 5 exterior petals, and Pyrethrum have 34 petals: all Fibonacci numbers. Even the way plants branch from their trunk follow a Fibonacci pattern. Although there is an exact correlation between these numbers and the Golden Ratio, because these numbers are too low to give the precise value of Phi, these patterns may be dictated by some underlying force exhibited by Phi. This force appears to manifest itself within the human psyche as evidenced by ancient architects use of dimensions inspired by the Fibonacci sequence Golden Ratio.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandala


A mandala (emphasis on first syllable; Sanskrit मण्डल, maṇḍala – literally "circle") is a spiritual and ritual symbol in Hinduism and Buddhism, representing the universe.[1] In common use, "mandala" has become a generic term for any diagram, chart or geometric pattern that represents the cosmos metaphysically or symbolically; a microcosm of the universe.

Image

there are examples of Mandalas observed in Mayan (Tzolk’in: wheel of time), Aztec (Sun Stone) and even Christian cultures. Eastern Asian cultures have no historical connection with Mesoamerican cultures; however, many of the elements observed in Mandala’s across these cultures share sacred geometry (Fibonacci numbers, Golden Ratio, yantra and the flower of life). This is what makes the concept of the Mandala fascinating; it is a sacred design that spans across time and cultures that have no known physical connections. Mandala truly embraces the philosophy behind its concept: A Universe Connected.


Image

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Re: Let's talk about the universe for a change

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:26 pm

.

Appropriately enough for the present year, the Edge "World Questions Center" did not ask for an answer but a tweet, in the form of one question. It makes for quick reading, at least, and you can explore your own mind and even perform a kind of stand-up routine for yourself (moments of laughter included) by considering the instant answer you pop out to each. Amid the trivia, amid too many expressing the tenets of transhumanist fantasy as though self-evident -- meat-beings ardently desiring replacement of the meat-beings -- and a whole slew who seem to have no concept of ideology but think "religion" alone is the source of all problems (implicitly among the lower or less-educated orders), more than a few are genuinely profound and important. This guy was particularly RI:

https://www.edge.org/responses/what-is- ... t-question

Michael Vassar
Co-founder and Chief Science Officer, MetaMed Research


How can coalitions of scholars who wish to update the content of explicit common knowledge in order to use that knowledge collaboratively detect and circumvent coalitions which are applying narrative control strategies to preserve arbitrage opportunities implicit in disparities between official narratives and reality?
Last edited by JackRiddler on Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Let's talk about the universe for a change

Postby Harvey » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:17 pm

Well spotted. Some astonishingly dull questions beside the handful that were exhilarating or profound (for me.) I must admit, I would have given up long before reading so far down. Thanks for persevering.

I was reading about Archimedes solution to Hiero's crown problem (Hiero feared it had been adulterated with an alloy) and it occurred to me that Archimedes volume displacement solution probably couldn't have been discovered via a Roman emperor, largely because any gold shortage would have been immediate grounds to invade another gold rich nation, the question would be unlikely to arise. In any case, the Romans did eventually invade Syracuse and put a permanent end to Archimedes questioning. Sort of like the problems we have today, where alternative energy solutions are secondary to the problem of requisitioning remaining oil reserves.

So some related questions might be:

Q 1. Which contemporary cultural factors either inhibit or divert the scientific imagination? How would we be able to perceive them? How might we hope to identify them?

The unknown unknowns question is unanswerable. But the unknown knowns can be contended with, i.e. what do we know but don't know that we know it?

Answers might be - conformity to academic systems, unconscious or inherited philosophical bias, market funding and constraints, profit model etc. Some might impinge through non-scientific paradigms such as economic or political constraint, some through systemic confirmation bias (less subject to peer review) or individual confirmation bias (more subject to peer review) but other factors would undoubtedly be more elusive. What are those? How are our imaginations developed and informed? For example, being taught to value or desire certain things our imagination is immediately subordinated to pre-existing demands. Even science fiction has become extremely problematic for me, less so because of supposed commercial criteria and more frequently through unconscious or deliberate 'political' presupposition, where only certain kinds of questions are asked or certain kinds of fantasy represented. (Although there is much encouraging pushback on that.)

Q 2. What might we stand to lose through embracing a greater plurality (of approaches) in science? What might we stand to gain?

Anyway, I do wish Michael Vassar had used punctuation, his meaning isn't as clear as it might be (very RI and certainly very 'me') I mean, does he wish to use knowledge collaboratively (the apparent sense) or merely collaborate to detect other coalitions who might use the knowledge competitively against him? The difference is vast. Edit: I do acknowledge potential reference to narratives such as the official view of 9/11 and the (increasing among scholars) counter narrative.)

Anyway, corporate secrecy or IP (for example) where knowledge is proprietary, is that even compatible with 'explicit common knowledge'? Edit: For example, if mind is less isolated than acknowledged by science, the commons (of mind) is being increasingly sequestered by private interests, it's fruits being held behind paywalls. Could our imaginations be suborned to others usage? Could we go on 'imaginative strike' for example?

Ignorant ramble over...
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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Re: Let's talk about the universe for a change

Postby Sounder » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:26 am

I was not much interested in most of the questions in the edge piece, but find Michael Vassar to be very interesting. He was president of some singularity group and a machine learning group. (the poor wording reflects laziness at going back to find better specifics.)
So while I was inclined to be suspicious of his material, upon hearing it I found that not to be the case at all.

His current company provides personalized medical research. I watched his promo vid on the Big Think and find his approach toward science to be refreshing. So I assume his words correctly refer to our condition where some people and aspects of the system profit from our ignorance.

My question is; what will it take to achieve more positive interaction between order and liberty or the Law and spontaneity?

In my opinion, this is the vehicle on which the evolution of consciousness rides.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Let's talk about the universe for a change

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:34 am

.

Loving the stuff posted above by BS.

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: Let's talk about the universe for a change

Postby Cordelia » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:55 pm

^^^ Ditto.

Remembering learning about Fibonacci, the Golden Ratio/Mean while homeschooling (best education I ever got), and the images from Hubble, etc..

Image

From Scientific American:
Space

Strange Stars Pulsate According to the Golden Ratio


Astronomers have discovered variable stars that periodically dim and brighten at frequencies close to the famed golden mean


By Clara Moskowitz on February 9, 2015

Scholars have seen the golden ratio in nautilus shells, the Parthenon, da Vinci paintings and now in stars. A new study of variable stars observed by the Kepler space telescope found four stars that pulsate at frequencies whose ratio is near the irrational number 0.61803398875, known as the Greek letter phi, or the golden ratio (which is also sometimes referred to as the inverse of that number, 1.61803398875…).

The golden ratio had not turned up in the celestial sphere before astronomer John Linder of The College of Wooster in Ohio and his colleagues analyzed the Kepler data. The researchers looked at a class of stars called RR Lyrae that are known for their variability. Unlike the sun, which shines at a near constant brightness (a good thing for life on Earth!), these stars brighten and dim as their atmospheres expand and contract due to periodic pressure changes. Each star pulses with a primary frequency and also shows smaller brightness fluctuations occurring on a secondary frequency. The ratios between these two frequencies “are very important,” says astronomer Róbert Szabó of the Konkoly Observatory in Hungary, who was not involved in the study, “because they are characterized by the inner structure of stars—and if a star exhibits many modes, then observation of the frequencies gives very strict constraints to stellar models.” For four of the six RR Lyrae stars the researchers analyzed, the ratio of the primary to secondary frequencies was near the golden mean—within 2 percent of its value in the case of the star KIC 5520878, for example.

The golden ratio has been a source of fascination to mathematicians, scientists and artists since the days of Pythagoras and Euclid in ancient Greece, although whether or not it is actually present in all of the places people have claimed to find it is debatable. “The golden ratio has a long history in disciplines ranging from the physics of crystals to visual arts,” says astrophysicist Mario Livio of the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore, who wrote the 2002 book The Golden Ratio: The Story of Phi, The World's Most Astonishing Number. Two numbers have the golden mean if the ratio between them is the same as the ratio between their sum and the larger of the two numbers—in rectangular terms, long is to short as the whole is to the long. “The golden ratio is special in that it is in some sense the most irrational of all irrational numbers,” Livio says. An irrational number is one that cannot be expressed as a ratio of whole numbers. But some irrational numbers are easy to approximate using rational numbers whereas others are hard. The golden ratio is the irrational number that is hardest to approximate with rational numbers.

The connection between the golden ratio and these variable stars could be meaningful or it could just be a fluke. “Many claims about natural phenomena and the golden ratio are exaggerated,” says mathematician and computer scientist George Markowsky of the University of Maine, Orono. “I refuse to accept anything off by 2 percent or more as evidence of the golden ratio. After all, around any real number there are infinitely many other real numbers. People don't seem to write papers about the mystic properties of .6 (which is very close to .618....).” Astronomer Szabó, who leads the working group studying Kepler data on RR Lyrae stars, says he is not yet convinced that the golden ratio in this case is more than a coincidence, but that characterizing the stars’ oscillation frequencies is important. “This paper is a significant contribution to the topic,” he says.

Although the sample of stars in this study was very small, the researchers noticed an intriguing pattern among the four stars with pulsation frequencies close to the golden ratio. These stars all exhibited fractal behavior—never-ending patterns that repeat on continuously smaller scales—whereas the two non–golden ratio stars did not. “That suggests there might be a pattern,” Linder says. “What we need is more data.” An example of a fractal is a jagged coastline, which reveals more and more wiggles in its outline as you zoom in from any vantage point. “It’s the same with the frequencies in these stars,” Linder says. “As we lower the threshold we see more and more frequencies.”

The golden stars are actually the first examples outside of a laboratory of what’s called “strange nonchaotic dynamics.” The “strange” here refers to a fractal pattern, and nonchaotic means the pattern is orderly, rather than random. Most fractal patterns in nature, such as weather, are chaotic, so this aspect of the variable stars came as a surprise. “If you look in the literature, you see lots of examples of strange chaotic behavior,” Linder says. “I think our paper is going to bring this overlooked type of dynamics to the foreground.” If the same pattern is seen in more stars with golden ratio frequencies, it might help astronomers better understand and predict the detailed physics of stellar pulsations. “From a dynamics perspective,” Livio says, “it is quite intriguing to understand why systems would be attracted to this ratio.”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... den-ratio/


From NASA:

Spiral Galaxy M51

Image

M51 is a spiral galaxy, about 30 million light years away, that is in the process of merging with a smaller galaxy seen to its upper left.

This image is part of a "quartet of galaxies" collaboration of professional and amateur astronomers that combines optical data from amateur telescopes with data from the archives of NASA missions. NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala., manages the Chandra program for NASA's Science Mission Directorate in Washington. The Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory in Cambridge, Mass., controls Chandra's science and flight operations.

Image credit: X-ray: NASA/CXC/SAO; Optical: Detlef Hartmann; Infrared: NASA/JPL-Caltech

Last Updated: Aug. 7, 2017

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/chan ... y-m51.html


From Van Gogh:

Image
The greatest sin is to be unconscious. ~ Carl Jung

We may not choose the parameters of our destiny. But we give it its content. ~ Dag Hammarskjold 'Waymarks'
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