9/11 Truth Movement vs. 9/11 Truth

[8bitagent]

But why is the truther meme "Bush and Cheney orchestrated 9/11", "The US did 9/11"?

Oh, I don't know, maybe all those simultaneous war games and the security stand down? The put options made by rich Americans, Bush's base? Just for a start.

FWIW, I don't think Bush himself knew WTF was up.

Uh huh. Then why was it Bill Clinton's CIA who hid Ali Mohamed despite him being used to stage the WTC 1993 and 1998 African embassy attacks(and pretty much lead Osama on a collar around Sudan and Afghanistan while bringing Zawahiri on trips to California in 1995)?

Why was it Clinton's CIA who gave rise to the Taliban in 1996 and
funded/used al Qaeda in the Balkans conflict?

Why was it Clinton's government that forced the FBI from going after Osama's top financiers, terror charity networks, Saudi royals and hijackers at flight schools?

Why was it Clinton's government that set up Nawaf al Hamzi and Khalid al Midhar with Malaysian authorities for the Jan 2000 Kuala Lampar Malaysian 9/11 and USS Cole summit, THEN two weeks later turned the other way when Saudi Arabia brought these two hijackers under FBI informants
in San Diego as Saudi Arabia was made to Visa Fasttrack the other hijackers into CIA linked flight schools??????

WTC 1993...Waco...OKC 1993...1996 TWA 800...1996 Khobar...1998 Embassy Attacks.....USS Cole in 2000

All staged events, coverups, provocatuered actions. All under Clinton, who was busy murdering Iraqis and Kosovars with bombs

And to PROVE Clinton's administration was setting up 9/11, with the John Oneil garbage, is the FACT that Clinton MADE SURE Osama would not be fired upon by hellfire predator drones(as Osama was hanging with top CEOS and Royalty in Dubai on the side), rejected Sudan's offer, AND THEN had National Advisor Sandy Berger try and destroy all the pre 9/11 evidence POINTING to the Clinton administration

I wonder if "co-opting the movement" is really accurate. It seems to me that the movement was birthed in the first place, almost immediately, by the same people who thought the Oklahoma City bombing couldn't have been done by fertilizer.

That's not how I remember it. Early researchers had nothing to say about demolition, either because of tactics (could never be proven - Ruppert) or because they didn't buy it (Hopsicker). As late as the 2004 Truth Conference in Toronto CD was still on the sidelines, and not the presumption or the leading argument. For instance, highlights were Paul Thompson's presentation on the ISI, Ruppert's on the war games, Matthias Broekers' "Welcome to Brainwashington" and Jamey Hecht's "Conspiracy and the State of the Union". An Alex Jones video was screened one morning, introduced apologetically, and his histrionics generated a lot of embarrassed tittering. I don't think a Truth conference today would much resemble that.

About the OKC analogy, there is one to be made, but also there are deeper questions about OKC that are not exhausted with the discussion of what took down the building. The role and protection of "Andy the German," for instance, and Terry Nichols' Philippine connection to Ramzi Yousef.

I absolutely concur, though, with Taibbi's hilarious demolition of the argument for motive to the "pulling" of WTC 7:

I think this last contention has to be the absolute funniest detail in all 9/11 lore -- the contention that the CIA or whoever destroyed a whole building to get rid of the "evidence" of the 9/11 plot, which many alleged was masterminded from the CIA offices in WTC-7. The same people who complain endlessly that they can't get the evidence they need without subpoena power imagine that the Central Intelligence Agency somehow needs to destroy its own buildings in order to keep its "secret plans" (contained in a Mission Impossible -style folder, no doubt!) from leaking to . . . the 9/11 Truth movement! Why would the CIA need to do that, if they don't even need a shredder -- shit, not even a four-dollar Master Lock -- to keep their 9/11 secrets hidden now?

And what evidence could possibly exist that would be so unwieldy that it would require the destruction of an entire building to be rid of? What, did the CIA carve its 9/11 plans in a 7,000-pound slab of New Hampshire granite in the WTC-7 basement? Were they doodled on the CIA bathroom stalls? Here I sit, brokenhearted. Came to shit, but only . . . planned controlled demolition of the World Trade Center! Seriously, what "evidence" had to go? And why wouldn't they just remove it surreptitiously, rather than blowing up a gazillion-dollar building on live international television, leaving the rubble to the mercy of firemen and whoever else was down there?

Sounds like it was a great conference, I went to Alex Jones "9/11" conference in Los Angeles, and it was nothing but Tarpley, Fetzer, Segal, Walters, etc talking about fake planes, missiles at the pentagon and controlled demolition. Literally. That was 90% of the conference. I wanted to go up to the podium and talk about Bosnian jihadists, Ptech, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, WF-199i, etc. So maddening.

But "Andy the German", Nichols/Philippines, etc is not the smoking gun of OKC being an inside job...its the fact they used almost the same informant and provocatuer networks that carried out WTC 1993 to carry out this one.
There are people still alive in OKC along with informants who van vouch of FBI informants hanging with Mcveigh weeks and days before the OKC bombing. Thats the smoking gun I believe. Neo Nazi and Muslim/Arab provocatuer agents under the deep state.

[MacCruiskeen]

Jeff wrote:

It's a problem of pedagogy for Truthers. Dismissing virtually everyone else as sleeping sheeple who haven't seen the thermite light doesn't help.

Jeff, who are these "Truthers"? Please, identify them for me, because they sound like a terrible threat. I want to make sure they're not just straw men sporting a Homer Simpson mask:



"Aren't you glad you're more sophisticated than I am?"

The mask was designed by Matt Taibbi Associates ("Toys 'N' Games For The Liberal Who Has Everything").

[8bitagent]

Jess, then WHY isnt the left raising issues with the proven OBVIOUS if its merely the "crazy" theories of 9/11 they have issue with?

Shouldn't the question be, why aren't the Truthers? Everyone, not only those on the left, need to read very deeply these days on the subject of 9/11 if they are ever going to learn there are other issues besides demolition.

It's a problem of pedagogy for Truthers. Dismissing virtually everyone else as sleeping sheeple who haven't seen the thermite light doesn't help.

Oh absolutely. If you remember, before a lot of people were asking 9/11 questions; the mainstream media was the ones bringing up things that contradicted the official story. The Sterling Commission era of truthdom was there, but the media was asking "why is Bush covering up Saudi's role", "ISI and $100,000 to Atta", "What really happened on Flight 93", "Why is the Bushes so close to the bin Ladens?", etc

I fully believe Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda was intimately involved in 9/11, I have no doubt. They were not "framed", there is no "false" flag.
They were all too willing dupes, and did not concieve or mastermind 9/11.
Instead they were the all too eager beaver bullet, with the NWO holding the gun.

I can show precisely who was handling the hijackers, the middlemen, etc
It was a cross layer of corporation fronts(Tatex, Infocom, Infocus, Ptech, CDS Intl, etc) along with the post al Kifah Refugee linked CIA networks, ISI, Saudi Arabia, terror charity fronts, Dubai banking networks, etc.

I can prove it was Yeslam bin Laden and SICO corporation who made sure the hijackers got sent to the CIA linked drug smuggling Florida flight schools that the Sun Tabloid people were going to(who also hosted the hijackers and then got anthraxed)

I can prove that virtually every hijacker had a "buddy system" with non Arab handlers, Muslim assets and agents, had their credit cards paid for,
had non Arabs/Muslims staying in their rooms, and was living with government protected informants/imans/charities or CIA "baby sitters"

Of course neither the anti war activist liberal side, the "right wing" truthers nor the general truth circles seem too interested in all this.

I mean Nawaf al Hamzi and Khalid al-Midhar's Bosnia to Malaysia to San Diego journey proves 9/11 was a grand setup.

Im ASHAMED that FBI, CIA, cops, politicians go on tv and get teary eyed saying "if only we coulda prevented it". I KNOW, I KNOW they know what I
am saying. Are they that blind?

Do they not see how the ISI and Saudi GID worked hand in glove with al Qaeda and the hijackers? Or that the hijackers had HELP in the US of A?

Do they NOT SEE that at EVERY hijacker, middleman, operative, and chiefton of al Qaeda is Muslim government or CIA state sponsorship?
From Indonesia's JI, to Pakistan JEM, to CIA's al-Kifah?

[isachar]

Jeff wrote:

It's a problem of pedagogy for Truthers. Dismissing virtually everyone else as sleeping sheeple who haven't seen the thermite light doesn't help.

Jeff, who are these "Truthers"? Please, identify them for me, because they sound like a terrible threat. I want to make sure they're not just straw men sporting a Homer Simpson mask:



"Aren't you glad you're more sophisticated than I am?"
T
he mask was designed by Matt Taibbi Associates ("Toys 'N' Games For The Liberal Who Has Everything").

Mac - excellent comment regarding 'strawmen'. You've done well to hoist the deserving upon their own petard in such an elegant manner.

[8bitagent]

Jeff wrote:

It's a problem of pedagogy for Truthers. Dismissing virtually everyone else as sleeping sheeple who haven't seen the thermite light doesn't help.

Jeff, who are these "Truthers"? Please, identify them for me, because they sound like a terrible threat. I want to make sure they're not just straw men sporting a Homer Simpson mask:



"Aren't you glad you're more sophisticated than I am?"

The mask was designed by Matt Taibbi Associates ("Toys 'N' Games For The Liberal Who Has Everything").

That Homer Simpson mask=
http://akamai.bizrate.com/blogs/070727/Homer_Simpson_Mask.jpg

Akamai is the tech company by high level Israeli anti hijacker commando Daniel Lewin, who was shot in the face on Flight 11 on 9/11/2001

Akamai is now one of the world's biggest servers, and are behind Myspace, Fox News.com, and many other sites.

[IanEye]

But why is the truther meme "Bush and Cheney orchestrated 9/11", "The US did 9/11"?

Oh, I don't know, maybe all those simultaneous war games and the security stand down? The put options made by rich Americans, Bush's base? Just for a start.

FWIW, I don't think Bush himself knew WTF was up.

Uh huh. Then why was it Bill Clinton's CIA who hid Ali Mohamed despite him being used to stage the WTC 1993 and 1998 African embassy attacks(and pretty much lead Osama on a collar around Sudan and Afghanistan while bringing Zawahiri on trips to California in 1995)?

Why was it Clinton's CIA who gave rise to the Taliban in 1996 and
funded/used al Qaeda in the Balkans conflict?

you are kidding right?

put it this way, why was it Kennedy's CIA that blew JFK's fucking brains out?

i am not saying Clinton's hands are clean at all, but your logic doesn't work here.

put it another way, who was the CIA more interested in taking orders from in 1979 - Jimmy Carter or George H W Bush??

[Jeff]

Jeff, who are these "Truthers"? Please, identify them for me, because they sound like a terrible threat. I want to make sure they're not just straw men sporting a Homer Simpson mask:

Easy enough. Just Google 9/11 + sheeple + wake up finds 117,000 hits. That would be some of them.

And yeah, I think there's something wrong with throwing around the term "sheeple" and yelling at people to "wake up." Not because it's impolite, though it is. But because those who do it present themselves as a fucking mental political cult whose conduct discredits its issues, and everyone else who shares those issues.

[8bitagent]

Jeff, who are these "Truthers"? Please, identify them for me, because they sound like a terrible threat. I want to make sure they're not just straw men sporting a Homer Simpson mask:

Easy enough. Just Google 9/11 + sheeple + wake up finds 117,000 hits. That would be some of them.

And yeah, I think there's something wrong with throwing around the term "sheeple" and yelling at people to "wake up." Not because it's impolite, though it is. But because those who do it present themselves as a fucking mental political cult whose conduct discredits its issues, and everyone else who shares those issues.

I agree. Even Al Franken has said how he hates 9/11 Truthers, because they call him names and harass him

I've seen it Jeff. "WHY DONT YOU TALK ABOUT ISRAEL's ROLE, you CRYPTO JEW?"

"Wake up! Cant you see the TRUTH?"

Oh some of the "truther" actions via email, street yelling, tv appearences has been embarassing to say the least.

you are kidding right?

put it this way, why was it Kennedy's CIA that blew JFK's fucking brains out?

i am not saying Clinton's hands are clean at all, but your logic doesn't work here.

put it another way, who was the CIA more interested in taking orders from in 1979 - Jimmy Carter or George H W Bush??

I'm talking about eras. Time periods. We call them by their Presidential name. The Ike era. The JFK era. The Teddy era. The LBJ era.
I refer to 1993-2000 as the Clinton era. The Clinton Administration period.

I'm sorry, do you really believe 9/11 was cooked up in January 2001 and pushed into being by the neocons in what, barely 8 months?

We're talking the deep state during the Clinton years, 1993-2000.
Same sort of deep state that killed JFK-RFK-MLK, and sent a "warning" to Reagan with Bush buddy Hinckley

The CIA was clearly taking orders from Poppy Bush and Brzezinski, and then their handlers and advisors. I believe Carter is a great man, and is proof of how a good guy can be coopted without him even realizing it.

[Hammer of Los]

Yes, those determined to undermine the truth of real conspiracies tailor their message to their audience. To a left-liberal audience, they will attempt to say it couldnt be true because it is (or has connections to) a "right-wing" conspiracy theory. It's barely even coherent, never mind rational, to insist that something cannot be true because it is believed by people with a different political bent. Of course, when addressing the right wing, these conspiracy theories are all down to left-liberals and anarchists, the "blame America first," crowd.

Bah.

Still, I guess it works when people are having their pre-existing beliefs confirmed. Rational analysis is hardly required.

I think I shall put Taibbi in the same file as our good friend Chip Berlet.

Divide and conquer. These days, I dont have the reflexive dismisal of everything said by an ostensibly "right-wing" source, I prefer to use my reason and good sense to determine what to agree with, rather than some label someone has applied. And Jesse Ventura? Wasn't he a.. a... pro wrestler! Hell, that's worse than being a mormon, or right-wing (to the left) or left-liberal (to the right).

Yeah, and of course OKC was an inside job. When this guy said 911 inside job can't be true because there are links to those who said OKC was an inside job, I had to laugh. I guess I'm not enough of a faithful left-liberal.

Everyone, not only those on the left, need to read very deeply these days on the subject of 9/11 if they are ever going to learn there are other issues besides demolition.

I am sure you understand that most everyone here has already done all this, and long before they ever read Steve Jones, or Architects and Engineers.

I find myself in a great deal of agreement with 8bitagent again;

The 2001-2004 9/11 Truth movement your speaking of was such an amazing gold mine of information, comradery, etc. I look at the Rupert/Singh 2004 Citizen's Commission videos, the strong role of the 9/11 families within the truth network, etc.

Then came Fetzer...Reynolds...Walters...Tarpley...Shayler...the Loose Change meme of "missiles, bombs, fake Osama", etc. The bullhorn circus.

It was bye bye Paul Thompson, hello tv fakery and fake cell calls.

I think that's when 9/11 Truth morphed into 9/11 Fiction, and it became a 3 ring circus.

I can't say I disagree with a word of that.

[Jeff]

I can't say I disagree with a word of that.

Likewise.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

.....
Akamai is the tech company by high level Israeli anti hijacker commando Daniel Lewin, who was shot in the face on Flight 11 on 9/11/2001

C'mon, 8bit. There is no reliable evidence of any kind for what happened to passengers on any of those planes.
See "Let's roll!"

Akamai is now one of the world's biggest servers, and are behind Myspace, Fox News.com, and many other sites.

That's interesting. Now my wild conjecture-
Lewin's work on the ground at MIT in 1998 looks very much like the kind of thing useful in spook datamining and network analysis schemes. http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=276856&dl=ACM&coll=portal

Might be useful to eliminate him for a number of reasons with a bad flight booking like the guy on Conair's crash that Alex Constantine focused on.

Conjecture can be useful.
But I know what the laws of physics mandate.
And that proves that the media are controlled tools for social control.

Isn't that culture shift enough to be worth using Sir Isaac Newton to rescue the Bill of Rights?

[IanEye]

I'm talking about eras. Time periods. We call them by their Presidential name. The Ike era. The JFK era. The Teddy era. The LBJ era.
I refer to 1993-2000 as the Clinton era. The Clinton Administration period.

I'm sorry, do you really believe 9/11 was cooked up in January 2001 and pushed into being by the neocons in what, barely 8 months?

We're talking the deep state during the Clinton years, 1993-2000.
Same sort of deep state that killed JFK-RFK-MLK, and sent a "warning" to Reagan with Bush buddy Hinckley

The CIA was clearly taking orders from Poppy Bush and Brzezinski, and then their handlers and advisors. I believe Carter is a great man, and is proof of how a good guy can be coopted without him even realizing it.

ok, the above explains your intent better than what you said before...

[Telexx]

And yeah, I think there's something wrong with throwing around the term "sheeple" and yelling at people to "wake up." Not because it's impolite, though it is. But because those who do it present themselves as a fucking mental political cult whose conduct discredits its issues, and everyone else who shares those issues.

Bingo. And it only took 11 pages.

Personally, even though I agreed with much of the author's points, I hated the article (tone = patronising; content = in parts, highly dubious).

However, the Truth behind the Truth(tm) is that it is credibility-free because of all that SHOUTING going on.

Factor into this fringe ideas that inevitably gain the most attention, and they phase from credibility-free into laughing stock.

In the battle for hearts-and-minds 911 Truth* has as literally 0% chance of victory because tone and (to some extent) content leaves it vulnerable to the easy characterisation of "crazies".

Factor into this the mind's natural mechanism of generalisation, then you can easily see that anybody who doesn't buy the official story gets tarred with the same crazy brush.

* (I am aware that I am making a generalisation).

Kthx,

Telexx

[chiggerbit]

Jeff said:

..About the OKC analogy, there is one to be made, but also there are deeper questions about OKC that are not exhausted with the discussion of what took down the building. The role and protection of "Andy the German," for instance, and Terry Nichols' Philippine connection to Ramzi Yousef....

Oh, there was much to argue about OKC, but the Christian patriot noise became about THE BOMB!, THE BOMB!!, THE BOMB!!!, and drowned out so much of the rest.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

.....
I find myself in a great deal of agreement with 8bitagent again;

The 2001-2004 9/11 Truth movement your speaking of was such an amazing gold mine of information, comradery, etc. I look at the Rupert/Singh 2004 Citizen's Commission videos, the strong role of the 9/11 families within the truth network, etc.

Then came Fetzer...Reynolds...Walters...Tarpley...Shayler...the Loose Change meme of "missiles, bombs, fake Osama", etc. The bullhorn circus.

It was bye bye Paul Thompson, hello tv fakery and fake cell calls.

I think that's when 9/11 Truth morphed into 9/11 Fiction, and it became a 3 ring circus.

I can't say I disagree with a word of that.

After 2004 the hardest truth to face, the controlled demolition, was re-asserted with hard science and established as far more damning then the earlier 'incompetence or LIHOP' stories that both conveniently reinforced "blowback that needs a police-state defense."

So the anti-9/11 Truth sleeper disinformation-division-diversion campaign cranked way up in response to this predictable eventuality rather like the incremental gestation of the JFK Truth movement.

So what? That doesn't mean that "those were the good old days we should return to."