"Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

[Plutonia]

It is perhaps hard to understand, but we pride ourselves on not being a police state, on not having a paramilitary-style police, or an armed police.

Does.. not... compute...

[Plutonia]

Hey barracuda

A Norwegian mom explains how she helped keep her daughter calm throughout the hour-long gun rampage at Utoya island.

Texting.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestof ... ssacre.cnn

[barracuda]

She says, "I didn't know what to believe because I thought there was some sort game or something so, ahh, I didn't realise how serious this was."

She didn't even believe her daughter until the first text message came, after they had already spoken.

[Plutonia]

She says, "I didn't know what to believe because I thought there was some sort game or something so, ahh, I didn't realise how serious this was."

She didn't even believe her daughter until the first text message came, after they had already spoken.

I didn't hear her mention calling the police at all, did you?

[MacCruiskeen]

Delta does not not have any helicopters, but can use Air force helicopters (Bell 416) stationed at Rygge for missions further away from Oslo. These helicopters are not on "stand-by" (to say the least).

Not even nearly two hours after the biggest bomb attack in Norway's post WWII history? Well, with all due respect for your being Norwegian, DYK: Could you please provide some evidence for that confident assertion? Exactly what qualifies you, specifically, to make it? Do you work for Delta, or are you otherwise particularly qualified to speak for them, or for the Air Force base at Rygge, or for its actual state of readiness when the massacre began?

It was a horrible, heartbreaking massacre, by the way, and I hope you were at least not personally bereaved. Here in Germany, many people were visibly and audibly affected by it.

I also come from a very small northern European country, a country as small as yours, a country also well-equipped with oil-rigs, helicopters and police officers. It's a country (like yours) not entirely unacquainted with the unexpected: e.g., emergencies, disasters, violent criminals, armed gangs, and sudden heartbreaking mass killings. (I come from Scotland, although I now live elsewhere.)

But the mere fact that I am a native of Scotland does not in itself make me exceptionally well qualified to make unassailable assertions about the actual de facto emergency-response capabilities of Scotland's police force and army on any given day* -- for instance, on the day of the Ibrox disaster or on the day of the Dunblane massacre. Simply being Scottish is not , in itself, necessarily proof that any speaker (or writer) is necessarily 100% right or dependably informed about anything pertaining to those terrible events, including police and emergency-services responses to them. And I know that many Norwegian people are baffled and angered by Beredskaptstroppen's inability to get to Utöya more promptly. Which is also why the Norwegian government has announced that there is now going to be a public inquiry.


This is why I ask.

*The same applies, of course, to Americans talking about 9/11, or Britons talking about 7/7, or Italians talking about the Bologna bombings, etc. Opinion is divided on these issues, and nationality in itself is no proof of unimpeachable knowledge or greater understanding of these horrible events.

[Joe Hillshoist]

I guess what I'm saying is these things don't happen instantaneously. The kid spoke to his dad. What did he say? "Dad there's shooting here on the island!" Do you think his father immediately hung up the phone without further conversation? I don't. I'd find out more details, and make sure my kid was unhurt, and remind him to stay hidden. Then I'd call the cops and I'd have to tell them my story as well. Now five minutes have easily passed. Then local police contact Oslo.

LOL. Remind me never to call you in an emergency.

Don't call Toowoomba cops if you're in a flood emergency either.

[Iamwhomiam]

Mac & stickdog: I really don't think that there was all that much delay in the response. It's obvious you both feel there was an extraordinary delay, perhaps even a purposeful delay, part of a conspiracy, to let this get as bad as it could.

I really didn't want to get in to this because doing so gets me lost in regret and thoughts of missed opportunities. I tried to keep up with the other thread, but I've still some 30 odd pages to read to catch up.

Now please do understand I am in no way making light this incredible tragedy, but really, what difference would it make to the parents who were first to lose their children if the police had arrived 15 minutes or even a half-hour earlier?

In my case the assailant shot 8 kids in 3 minutes, killing 6.

8 shot every three minutes... at that rate this guy, this fanatacist, would have killed 64 in the first 24 minutes. All before a cop could have possibly been on the scene.

Besides, what is your point? What new knowledge learned now or anytime during this past week could alter the result? Not a damn thing.

It time to stop being such fanatics and to now take time to learn whatever you can and once you feel you have a sound theory, relate it to us.

This is Rigorous Intuition, not Rigorless Conflation. Please, exercise some rigor, and then get back to us without wild speculation.

And Mac, you're way out of line coming on to DYK as you did: "DYK: Could you please provide some evidence for that confident assertion? Exactly what qualifies you, specifically, to make it? Do you work for Delta, or are you otherwise particularly qualified to speak for them, or for the Air Force base at Rygge, or for its actual state of readiness when the massacre began?"

What qualifies you to question their readiness?

You need to lighten up and stickdog needs to calm himself.

Barely a word of sympathy for the victims... simply shameful.

[eyeno]

canadian watcher wrote:

could all of this simply be the classic problem, reaction, solution:

1. Problem: we don't have enough heavily armed, highly trained, available law enforcement in Norway..
2. Reaction: Please give us more police/special forces!
3. Solution: Due to public outcry in the wake of the Utoya massacre.....

just as simple as that?

Touche. You and I clink wine glasses on this thought. Going further up the chain is most likely the answer. These octopus tentacles are wide sometimes but they generally lead back to the same blob of shit. Getting lost in these timelines instead of investigating 'who benefits' is a blind alley in my opinion.

[stickdog99]

Mac & stickdog: I really don't think that there was all that much delay in the response. It's obvious you both feel there was an extraordinary delay, perhaps even a purposeful delay, part of a conspiracy, to let this get as bad as it could.

I really didn't want to get in to this because doing so gets me lost in regret and thoughts of missed opportunities. I tried to keep up with the other thread, but I've still some 30 odd pages to read to catch up.

Now please do understand I am in no way making light this incredible tragedy, but really, what difference would it make to the parents who were first to lose their children if the police had arrived 15 minutes or even a half-hour earlier?

In my case the assailant shot 8 kids in 3 minutes, killing 6.

8 shot every three minutes... at that rate this guy, this fanatacist, would have killed 64 in the first 24 minutes. All before a cop could have possibly been on the scene.

Besides, what is your point? What new knowledge learned now or anytime during this past week could alter the result? Not a damn thing.

It time to stop being such fanatics and to now take time to learn whatever you can and once you feel you have a sound theory, relate it to us.

This is Rigorous Intuition, not Rigorless Conflation. Please, exercise some rigor, and then get back to us without wild speculation.

And Mac, you're way out of line coming on to DYK as you did: "DYK: Could you please provide some evidence for that confident assertion? Exactly what qualifies you, specifically, to make it? Do you work for Delta, or are you otherwise particularly qualified to speak for them, or for the Air Force base at Rygge, or for its actual state of readiness when the massacre began?"

What qualifies you to question their readiness?

You need to lighten up and stickdog needs to calm himself.

Barely a word of sympathy for the victims... simply shameful.

What is the problem with gathering evidence and discussing only what you know for sure first? Please explain yourself.

[stickdog99]

I guess what I'm saying is these things don't happen instantaneously. The kid spoke to his dad. What did he say? "Dad there's shooting here on the island!" Do you think his father immediately hung up the phone without further conversation? I don't. I'd find out more details, and make sure my kid was unhurt, and remind him to stay hidden. Then I'd call the cops and I'd have to tell them my story as well. Now five minutes have easily passed. Then local police contact Oslo.

LOL. Remind me never to call you in an emergency.

Don't call Toowoomba cops if you're in a flood emergency either.

[stickdog99]

By the way, thank God someone finally alerted an actual Norwegian to come here and set me straight.

[Dradin Kastell]

Thank you DevilYouKnow. It is good to read a really Norwegian point of view not coming through the media.

Why Honefoss? Isn't the police department in Sandvika closer?

Sandvika is not in Nordre Buskerud, but in Asker og Baerum police district. You can see the district line even in Google Maps. Honefoss is responsible for the Hole (where Utoya is) and Ringerike municipalities and would be the first police station expected to respond. But no doubt Sandvika would be one of the very first places Honefoss would call for backup.

Honefoss:

http://www.norway.no/styresmakter/liste.asp?n=1&nt=0&nw=1&nw1f=3&nw1v=h%F8nefoss&nw1o=3&nw1t=0&nw1l=1&nwc=45&nh=0&nc=4&np=1&ni=1&nvis=detaljer&ntail=32822

Sandvika:

http://www.norway.no/styresmakter/kvaliste.asp?n=1&nt=1&nw=1&nw1f=32&nw1v=45944&nw1o=8&nw1t=1&nw1l=1&nwc=23&nh=0&nc=41&np=1&ni=2&nvis=detaljer

Dradin, Google Maps says Honefoss is 20 kilometers from Utoya, and a 24 minute drive, so I have to assume for the ambulance to have arrived there in 9 minutes that they were somewhere in the area.

You're right, it is unlikely the ambulance could have made the lakeside so fast if it left when word was received from Drammen. Maybe they too had earlier, direct local calls like the police seems to have? The ambulance might have been somewhere in the area, yes, or maybe there is a local ambulance station I haven't located.

[stickdog99]

Thank you DevilYouKnow. It is good to read a really Norwegian point-of view not coming through the media.

Why Honefoss? Isn't the police department in Sandvika closer?

Sandvika is not in Nordre Buskerud, but in Asker og Baerum police district. You can see the district line even in Google Maps. Honefoss is responsible for the Hole (where Utoya is) and Ringerike municipalities and would be the first police station expected to respond.

Of course. It would be silly to consider using the closer station.

[barracuda]

How much closer is it?

[Dradin Kastell]

Of course. It would be silly to consider using the closer station.

That is police bureaucracy for you, it's just how these things are organised. Jurisdiction.