Mass Shooting in California

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Re: Mass Shooting in California

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon May 26, 2014 10:58 am

Misogyny Is Poison, And You’re Drinking It
Elliot Rodger doesn’t need to have been a madman. It’s enough that he was a man.

I don’t know the full story of what happened today in Williamsburg. About 20 minutes into a showing of The Phantom Tollbooth (I know! Brooklyn is magic sometimes), a steadily increasing murmuration in the middle of the theater erupted into a man barking out “you cunts” and storming from the room. Someone said “hey, there are kids here,” and he responded by turning around in the doorway and yelling “fucking cunts!” once again for good measure. I turned around in time to see two girls in their late teens or early 20s shrug and sit down. Though I don’t know the whole story, it very much appeared as if the girls had refused to give up their seats, and the man had flown off the handle. That’s all I know.

I don’t know the full story of what happened last night in Santa Barbara, either. Someone shot six people out of the window of a car, then killed himself; he is believed to have been 22-year-old Elliot Rodger. Rodger left behind a video of a virulent rant against the women who rejected him, complaining that he was a virgin and did not understand why women weren’t interested but that he would have his revenge. (Pro tip, fellas: If women‘s mysterious disinterest drives you to consider murdering them, consider that you may be terrifying. Women are smart enough to notice that you’re the kind of guy who’s driven to blood rage by simple rejection.) Rodger’s family has confirmed that he was seeing several therapists and that there had been concerns about his behavior. That’s all I know. That’s all anyone knows.

Except this: The difference between the movie theater jackass and the murderer is a difference of degree. Oh, there are also discrepancies in circumstances and specifics—including, quite likely, psychological profile. But both incidents crawled from the same stinking pit: a man’s instinct to unleash fury on a woman who doesn’t give him what he wants. And when we excuse or condone or even applaud the everyday offgassings of that gaping hole in our cultural decency, it’s no surprise that it sometimes erupts.

It’s so easy to say that Rodger is something awful and strange, an alien metabolism that somehow processes everyday interactions into poison. It’s so easy that men you know are doing it right now, as you read this—explaining to the women around them that this is about mental illness, not about hate. They’re doing this because they don’t want to admit that the poison is real and they’re drinking it too. They’re doing it because they don’t want to acknowledge that they’re feeding others poison every day. They’re doing it because they don’t want to understand that saying “this crime of anger and hatred against women is not a crime of misogyny” is the same as saying “here’s a shot of the poison that just killed seven people. Drink up.”

Killing women because women reject you is the act of a monster, but that monster isn’t Elliot Rodger. The monster was whispering in his ear that women owe men sex, and that those who don’t comply should be punished (along, let’s be clear here, with those who do). It told him women did not have the right to make choices about their bodies, that for them to withhold access to those bodies is cruel and unjust. It told him that winning, or wresting, attention and service from a woman is the way to prove you are a man. But it told you that too, and your sons and brothers and fathers and teachers.

It told them this in online forums for “incels,” the involuntarily celibate, who sometimes demand government recompense for their loneliness, or in workshops for pickup artists who pride themselves on how many women they can trick into bed. But its voice was also heard—is also heard—in more innocuous places, on and off the internet. It has spoken in Congress, where men tried to stake claims on the nation’s uteruses. It has joined Twitter conversations where some hack comedian or other bristled at being called out on his violent jokes. It has rung out over the music at a bar where a woman’s “no thanks” unleashed a torrent of abuse. It sounds jocular in movie trailers about men winning over reluctant women; it was a bit more threatening on the bus when that man kept saying “what are you reading? Hey, I’m talking to you!” but not so threatening that you said anything, probably. It hissed from your friend’s mouths when one of you punchlined “nothing, you already told her twice!” and the others laughed, or didn’t not laugh. It went to a children’s movie and called two young girls cunts.

Elliot Rodger may or may not have been mentally ill. It is likely he was—it is probably the only reasonable explanation—but hearing this voice was no proof. This voice speaks to everyone. It’s louder some places, it’s more convincing to some people, but it’s always there, a psychic loudspeaker calling out a march cadence. Even choosing not to listen isn’t enough; you have to choose to shout back.

Here’s something I wrote in 2009, after a different rejected man took out his frustrations by opening fire on a different group of women:

In an atmosphere of constant sub rosa misogyny, where that constant misogyny actually forms part of our sense of reality, it’s the people who object that bring us up short, more than the people who participate or even take it to extremes.

Why do feminists “overreact” to the tiniest traces of misogyny in ads and media, things the more enlightened call harmless fun? Because those tiny traces pollute our minds and our environments. Because we struggle each day through a miasma of subtle, insidious particles of information saying that men need to fuck women into submission, that women are inherently lesser beings, that women’s looks are their only worth, that women’s safety and health and comfort are unimportant — and the particles that stick to you don’t wash off easily.
That’s true this time too. And it will be true next time.

The Santa Barbara County sheriff described the shooting as “obviously the work of a madman.” But Elliot Rodger doesn’t need to have been a madman. It’s enough that he was a man.
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Re: Mass Shooting in California

Postby 8bitagent » Mon May 26, 2014 11:01 am

Hunter » Sun May 25, 2014 5:33 pm wrote:
Can we take serious steps to stop this men’s rights activism thing now? It’s not just a dumb thing on a corner of the internet to poke and laugh at, it killed seven people. Seven women are dead because of this entitlement bullshit. Seven women aren’t alive any more because nobody sat this scumbag down and said, “Nobody owes you attention or sex or anything and people have a right to not want to sleep with you.” -



LOL no, whoever wrote this is a bit of a moron. 4 of his 6 victims were MEN, so no, seven women are not dead because of any of this.

As I understand it, 4 men 2 women and the perp was the seventh. Seven dead in total including the shooter, 5 of them were males including the shooter.


According to social networking, twitter, etc they make it sound like all six victims were female. It's good to deconstruct and break the paradigm of things that need to change. But let's not kid ourselves.
America has it pretty good compared to parts of Africa where it's common for women to have their genitals hacked off or kidnapped into sex slavery. Or the middle east, where women are less than dog shit.
Yes, it goes against my anti imperialist rants to also talk about issues with other parts of the world. Hell let's look at women who believe in Abrahamic faiths. Why would a person devote themselves to faiths
where they are second/third/fourth class citizens? I'd like to see all these systems crumble.

And if we are going to talk about the ugly power of language in regards to feminism; people should talk about how often some of the most spirit breaking, horrible and ugly comments toward women...are by other women.
Leading some girls to suicide/suicide attempts.
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Re: Mass Shooting in California

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon May 26, 2014 11:16 am

It might sound like his victims were all women if it's not explicitly stated that they were 2/3 men because his manifesto and retribution video focused precisely on how he was going to slaughter women. I fully believe that the deaths occurred in that way because he was barred entry from the sorority.

He planned this for a full year.
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Re: Mass Shooting in California

Postby KUAN » Mon May 26, 2014 11:26 am

It's been reported in Taiwanese newspapers that 3 of the victims are male students from Taiwan.
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Re: Mass Shooting in California

Postby Hunter » Mon May 26, 2014 11:27 am

More than half, 4 were male 2 were female.
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Re: Mass Shooting in California

Postby Hunter » Mon May 26, 2014 11:29 am

KUAN » Mon May 26, 2014 11:26 am wrote:It's been reported in Taiwanese newspapers that 3 of the victims are male students from Taiwan.
Yes those were his roommates. He stabbed them to death.


His mother from China so maybe that is why he choose to live with Chinese roommates. He is half Chinese and his dad is British.
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Re: Mass Shooting in California

Postby 8bitagent » Mon May 26, 2014 11:29 am

well thankfully, other than Sandy Hook, these death missions never go according to plan. I mean look at Columbine, only 12 killed...horrible...but they had enough bombs and ammo and the intention to kill hundreds.

And this is going to sound messed up....but if a young dude who drives a nice new car, is the son of the director of the biggest young female obsessed movie franchise out there, and living in a freakin' posh college town can't "get lucky"...then in his mind, yeah, I can see how he came to his extremist fantasy. Of course I still feel that a big part of the issue with these lone nuts is guns. And access to guns. As while the 2001 Isla Vista massacre by a rich director's son was done with a car, and Rogers killed two of the victims by stabbing...none of these loony fucks...Jared Loughner, James Holmes, etc could do what they did without guns. Why is America, particularly males, so obsessed with guns?
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Re: Mass Shooting in California

Postby JackRiddler » Mon May 26, 2014 11:45 am

There is no getting around the explicit misogyny. His stated plan was to kill women because they're bitches, but also to kill everyone else he could kill.
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Re: Mass Shooting in California

Postby Searcher08 » Mon May 26, 2014 11:54 am

It is nonsense to refer to the killer as suffering from misogyny like it is a medical condition for which he could take MisogynBeGone pills and be cured.

If you have a person who is being perceived by family members as making credible violent threats as a result of mental illness, then in the UK they can be sectioned and observed. In California, my understanding is that this ability is very restricted due to laws relating to the rights of the mentally ill.

The language used in these pieces primarily uses underlying metaphors of contagion, poisoning etc.
The number of times someone says something has no relation to the truth of it.
The degree of anger experienced when writing a piece has no relation to the truth of it.
Create an interpretation that is full of fear. Replicate it under a rage banner. Put forward NO solutions.

Who determines whether language is misogynistic? And what should happen to them?
What happens if something was regarded as funny and acceptable in one decade but this changes - should there be retroactive punishment?

Should there be financial penalties imposed on men from birth to equalise their excessive privilege and power compared to women? If so, what would that look like?

What concerns me most about this is the type of transformation from
"All things are permitted except these X Y and Z" to
"ONLY A, B and C are permitted".

I believe passionately in both the right of speakers like this woman to speak without vile threats against her AND my right to call BS on the demeaning anti-mental illness and sexist stance she takes.

http://www.channel4.com/news/internet-trolls-twitter-sexist-abuse-police-laws



quote="Luther Blissett » Mon May 26, 2014 2:41 pm"]It's a total joke to act like his hatred of women doesn't come first and foremost. He repeats it ad nauseam.

Let's call the Isla Vista killings what they were: misogynist extremism
For some time now, misogynist extremism has been excused, as all acts of terrorism committed by white men are excused, as an aberration, as the work of random loons, not real men at all. Why are we denying the existence of a pattern?

BY LAURIE PENNY PUBLISHED 25 MAY, 2014 - 14:46

It’s time to call misogynist extremism by its name.

On Friday night, a young man went on a massacre in Santa Barbara that left six other people dead and seven injured. In the hours before the massacre, the suspect, 22-year-old Elliot Rodger, had uploaded a video to YouTube titled “Retribution”. In this, and in a 140-page manifesto published online, Rodger claimed that he was going to prove himself the ultimate “alpha male” and take revenge on all the “sluts” who had sexually rejected him:

"Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which I will have my revenge . . . you girls aren't attracted to me, but I will punish you all for it. I’ll take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you. You will finally see that I am in truth the superior one, the true alpha male.”

This is not the first time that women and unlucky male bystanders have been massacred by men claiming sexual frustration as justification for their violence. In 1989, 25-year-old Marc Lépine shot 28 people at the École Polytechnique in Quebec, Canada, claiming he was "fighting feminism". Fourteen women died. In 2009, a 48-year-old man called George Sodini walked into a gym in the Pittsburgh area and shot 13 women, three of whom died. His digital manifesto was a lengthier version of Rodger’s, vowing vengeance against the female sex for refusing to provide him with pleasure and comfort. Online misogynists approved.

“When men kill women, the underlying reason is almost always an unfulfilled psychosexual need . . . to men celibacy is walking death, and anything is justified in avoiding that miserable fate,” wrote “Roissy in DC” of the Pittsburgh killing, as reported by Jezebel in 2009. “At least it is implied that feminism is to blame and he is taking a last stand,” said another. “I had been waiting for this (almost thinking I had to do it myself) and I am impressed. Kudos."

The ideology behind these attacks - and there is ideology - is simple. Women owe men. Women, as a class, as a sex, owe men sex, love, attention, “adoration”, in Rodger’s words. We owe them respect and obedience, and our refusal to give it to them is to blame for their anger, their violence - stupid sluts get what they deserve. Most of all, there is an overpowering sense of rage and entitlement: the conviction that men have been denied a birthright of easy power.

Capitalism commodifies that rage, monetises it, disseminates it through handbooks and forums and crass mainstream pornography. It does not occur to these men that women might have experienced these very human things, too, because it does not occur to them that women are human, not really. Women are prizes to be caught and used or hags to be harassed or, occassionally, both.
Violent extremism always attracts the lost, the broken, young men full of rage at the hand they’ve been dealt. Violent extremism entices those who long to lash out at a system they believe has cheated them, but lack they courage to think for themselves, beyond the easy answers they are offered by pedlars of hate. Misogynist extremism is no different. For some time now misogynist extremism has been excused, as all acts of terrorism committed by white men are excused, as an aberration, as the work of random loons, not real men at all. The pattern is repeatedly denied: these are the words and actions of the disturbed.

"All I ever wanted was to love women, and in turn to be loved by them back. Their behaviour toward me has only earned my hatred and rightfully so! I am the true victim in all this. I am the good guy. . . I didn't start this war."

This is how extremism works. It takes the valid and substantial anger of the dispossessed and tortures it into something twisted. It promises the lost and despairing that they will have the respect and sense of purpose they have always longed for, if they only hate hard enough. And often it starts as a game, as shadow-play.

I make no apologies for the fact that this piece is full of rage. When news of the murders broke, when the digital world began to absorb and discuss its meaning, I had been about to email my editor to request a few days off, because the impact of some particularly horrendous rape threats had left me shaken, and I needed time to collect my thoughts. Instead of taking that time, I am writing this blog, and I am doing so in rage and in grief - not just for the victims of the Isla Vista massacre, but for what is being lost everywhere as the language and ideology of the new misogyny continues to be excused.

Why can we not speak about misogynist extremism - why can we not speak about misogyny at all - even when the language used by Elliot Rodger is everywhere online?

We are told, repeatedly, to ignore it. It’s not real. It’s just "crazy", lonely guys who we should feel sorry for. But as a mental health activist, I have no time for the language of emotional distress being used to excuse an atrocity, and as a compassionate person I am sick of being told to empathise with the perpetrators of violence any time I try to talk about the victims and survivors. That’s what women are supposed to do. We’re supposed to be infinitely compassionate. We’re supposed to feel sorry for these poor, confused, vengeful individuals. Sometimes we’re allowed to talk about our fear, as long as we don’t get angry. Most of all, we mustn’t get angry.

We have allowed ourselves to believe, for a long time, that the misogynist subcultures flourishing on- and offline in the past half-decade, the vengeful sexism seeding in resentment in a time of rage and austerity, is best ignored. We have allowed ourselves to believe that those fetid currents aren’t really real, that they don’t matter, that they have no relation to "real-world" violence. But if the Isla Vista massacre is the first confirmed incident of an incident of gross and bloody violence directly linked to the culture of ‘Men’s Rights’ activism and Pickup Artist (PUA) ideology, an ideology that preys on lost, angry men, then it cannot be ignored or dismissed any more.

We like to think that violent misogyny - not sexism, but misogyny, woman-hatred as ideology and practice, weaponised contempt for one half of the human race - isn’t something that really happens in the so-called West. No matter how many wives and girlfriends are murdered by their husbands, no matter how many rapists are let off because of their "promising careers", violence against women is something that happens elsewhere, somewhere foreign, or historical, or both. So anxious are we to retain this convenient delusion that any person, particularly any female person, who attempts to raise a counter argument can expect to be harassed and shouted down.
As soon as women began to speak about the massacre, a curious thing happened. Men all over the world - not all men, but enough men - began to push back, to demand that we qualify our anger and mitigate our fear. Not all men are violent misogynists.

Well, there have always been good men. Actually, I firmly believe that today there are more tolerant, humane men who recognise and celebrate the equality of the sexes than there have ever been before. Today, what I hear from many men and boys who talk to me about gender justice - decent, humane men and boys of the kind the twenty-teens are also, blessedly, producing in great numbers - is fear and bewilderment. Who are these people? Where do they live? And the unspoken fear: do I know them? Might I have met some of them, drunk with them? If the wind had changed when I was growing, if I had read different books and had different friends, might it have been me? If any man is capable of this, is every man capable of it?

Well, those are the correct questions to ask. What I hear more often, however, is “not all men”. I hear that age-old horror of women’s anger drowning out everything else. Not all men are like this. Don’t look at us. Don’t shout at us. Please, don’t ask us to stand up and be counted.
One thing I’ve found, when talking to people involved in the savage end of the "Men’s Rights" community, the Pickup Artist scene, or both, is that to a chap they are keen that I understand the difference between their grouplet and the next - those guys over there hate women, those guys over there have a broken worldview, we’re the reasonable ones. And before the charges of book-burning and censorship begin: interpretation does change everything. There are certainly men out there who engage with the ideas of "Pickup Artistry" without absorbing the contemptuous misogyny at its core, much less pursuing it to its conclusion. One of my best relationships, in fact, was with a young man who swore by The Game as a handbook for shy boys who wanted to be able to talk to girls at parties, whilst mocking the sexism at its core.

So no, it’s not all men. But then it never was.

But if you think for one second, for one solitary second, that demanding tolerance for men as a group, that dismissing the reality of violence against women because not all men kill, not all men rape, if you think that’s more important than demanding justice for those who have been brutalised and murdered by those not all men, then you are part of the problem. You may not have pulled the trigger. You may not have raised your hand to a woman in your life. But you are part of the problem.

This is not the time, to use the refrain of apologists for bigotry, to play devil’s advocate. The devil has more than enough advocates today. On most days, I can put up with aggressive faux-objectivity being used to shout down women’s experiences and silence gendered trauma, but not today.

"Women should not have the right to choose who to mate and breed with. That decision should be made for them by rational men of intelligence . . . Women have more power in human society than they deserve, all because of sex. There is no creature more evil and depraved than the human female."

I know for sure that just by writing this I will have exposed myself to more harassment, more threats, more verbal assaults. The comments below this piece will be stuffed, as they always are, with rank sexism, along with by a few brave souls trying to counter their arguments or maintain some pretence at tolerant, adult debate. I have clear memories of a time when I really looked forward to engaging with people who commented on my blog, even when we disagreed, when online politics was an exciting, dynamic space of living conversation. I remember it, and it’s in the cache, so it must have happened. But many young women at the start of writing and digital careers today have no such memories.

I didn’t experience violent misogyny as a child - sexism, yes, but my early years were free of direct experience of woman-hatred against me or my loved ones, except as an abstract concept, the fear that gets taught to all girl-children as soon as they can stand unaided: don’t walk down that street, don’t wear that skirt, don’t speak too loud or upset the men. You’ll get hurt. You could get killed. For today’s girl-children, that has been expanded to include: don’t go on the internet. Bad men are there, men who will hurt you.

Many of us choose to ignore those warnings. We choose to act instead like we are real human beings with a right to take up space, like almost all women and girls who have managed to achieve anything throughout history, because that’s what those warnings are for, what the violence behind them is for - to scare us into submission. We make that choice again every day, and somehow it does not get easier - because the older and stronger we get, the bigger and stronger the new feminist movement gets in all its glorious variety, the more vicious and committed the backlash becomes. The backlash is real. There is ideology behind it. It hurts. Sometimes, it kills.

For the countless women and girls who have come to live with harassment as a daily cost of being in public and productive while female - let alone while feminist - the tragedy at Isla Vista has been a chilling wake-up call. I know I will never be able to tell myself in quite the same way that the men who link me to two-hundred-post threads about how I ought to be raped can’t actually hurt my body, no matter how much they savage my peace of mind.

We have been told for a long time that the best way to deal with this sort of harrassment and violence is to laugh it off. Women and girls and queer people have been told that online misogynists pose no real threat, even when they’re sharing intimate guides to how to destroy a woman’s self-esteem and force her into sexual submission. Well, now we have seen what the new ideology of misogyny looks like at its most extreme. We have seen incontrovertible evidence of real people being shot and killed in the name of that ideology, by a young man barely out of childhood himself who had been seduced into a disturbing cult of woman-hatred. Elliot Rodger was a victim - but not for the reasons he believed.

Misogyny is nothing new, but there is a specific and frightening trend taking place, and if we’re not going to accept it, we have to call it by its name. The title of the PUA bible belies the truth: this is not a game. Misogynist extremism does not exist in a mystical digital fairyland where there are no consequences. It is real. It does damage. It kills. And this is no longer a topic where abstraction is anything approaching appropriate.
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Re: Mass Shooting in California

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon May 26, 2014 12:18 pm

Yes! Total nonsense! We are calling misogyny a medical condition just like we do fascism.
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Re: Mass Shooting in California

Postby Zombie Glenn Beck » Mon May 26, 2014 12:22 pm

SonicG » Mon May 26, 2014 7:56 am wrote:
Zombie Glenn Beck » Mon May 26, 2014 3:15 pm wrote:Reading his manifesto I really dont see the influence of MRA/PUA on him.....As much as I dont like "manosphere" jackasses, you cant really chalk this up to them.


I hate to ask but does he mention prostitutes in it?


Nah, I dont think a hooker would have done him much good anyways. Hes talking about being "worthy" of a woman and worthy of sex. He doesnt just want sex, he wants the approval of women and his peers which he thinks he will get through sex. His fantasy isnt getting laid, his fantasy is being socially acceptable enough to get laid. If you read his manifesto its not that he cant get women, its that general society has made him an outcast, not getting women is just a symptom of social isolation that he really obsessed over. And no one is doubting that this dude is a misogynist, all Im questioning is this supposed MRA/PUA influence on him which everyone is spouting but I just dont see.
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Re: Mass Shooting in California

Postby Zombie Glenn Beck » Mon May 26, 2014 12:29 pm

Also, he has an unusually anemic online presence for a lifestyle shut-in. What little you can find is mostly in his real name, and even has his real picture. Very odd thing to do for someone who was so shy and afraid of judgement. It might have just been eccentricity, he might have been so shy that he only made 100 ought posts on two forums, but my guess is that he put this stuff out there specifically so it could be found. He might have had a whole online life outside of this, or been so weird that he never talked to anyone. But every single bit of online information about him fits into his "poor me" sob story image.

It would be interesting to find out his WOW guild and see if he made any posts there.
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Re: Mass Shooting in California

Postby jlaw172364 » Mon May 26, 2014 12:40 pm

It's amazing to me that people only see misogyny here, when the guy stated he wanted to kill ALL the MEN on the planet so he can have all the women to himself. He killed men. He actively hated other men. To him men that had sex had no redeeming qualities, they were all obnoxious savage brutes. He spent most of his childhood playing games where the goal is to kill men. And yet, am I trying to claim he ONLY hated men, that he was a misandrist? Quoting polemics from people who have an axe to grind doesn't prove anything. A true misogynist doesn't want ANYTHING to do with women. They are disgusted by them, they seek to avoid them, they don't want to think about them. You'll find truer misogyny in the MGTOW communities, as well as some homosexual communities. They're not going to waste their lives obsessing over women and planning mass-murders. This kid was obsessed with women, he desired them, he craved them, he wanted them . . . but he couldn't figure out how to get with them, so his desires became warped and manifested as a mass-murder.

Anyway, I'm done posting here on this issue for the time being.
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Re: Mass Shooting in California

Postby Hunter » Mon May 26, 2014 12:59 pm

jlaw172364 » Mon May 26, 2014 12:40 pm wrote:It's amazing to me that people only see misogyny here, when the guy stated he wanted to kill ALL the MEN on the planet so he can have all the women to himself. He killed men. He actively hated other men. To him men that had sex had no redeeming qualities, they were all obnoxious savage brutes. He spent most of his childhood playing games where the goal is to kill men. And yet, am I trying to claim he ONLY hated men, that he was a misandrist? Quoting polemics from people who have an axe to grind doesn't prove anything. A true misogynist doesn't want ANYTHING to do with women. They are disgusted by them, they seek to avoid them, they don't want to think about them. You'll find truer misogyny in the MGTOW communities, as well as some homosexual communities. They're not going to waste their lives obsessing over women and planning mass-murders. This kid was obsessed with women, he desired them, he craved them, he wanted them . . . but he couldn't figure out how to get with them, so his desires became warped and manifested as a mass-murder.

Anyway, I'm done posting here on this issue for the time being.

I kind of agree, while he did say some horrible things about females he also said some equally horrible things about males. Also, and there is the kicker, he doesnt claim that men are superior to women like most misogynists do, what he does claim is that ELLIOT RODGER IS SUPERIOR TO EVERYONE, men and women. He makes it very clear that he thinks he is some sort of sexual demigod and he is so much better than everyone else and he doesnt understand why women wont flock to him and beg for his attention.


I am willing to concede there are some elements of misogyny here but I dont think ER is a great example of what misogyny really is, he is an example of what someone who thinks they are better than EVERYONE, men and women, is.
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Re: Mass Shooting in California

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon May 26, 2014 1:15 pm

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http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/05/2 ... y-matters/

Oh you guys win. Totally not driven by misogyny.
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