Let's talk Turkey

[slimmouse]

I'm enormuusly disappointed that suggesting that Gulen is somehow a liberal Islamic cleric doesnt strike yoiu as the blazen lie that it is;

What he actually is(albeit by proxy, IMHO) is a mass murdering Psycopath.

But hey, rather like your own life, thats his individual ride.

[FourthBase]

Mass murdering psychopath by proxy? Link, please. Show me how Gulen is responsible for mass murder. His students end up in Syria and Libya? That's it? How many students, out of how many total, and what exactly do they do in Syria and Libya? I can find nothing to suggest Gulen is responsible for mass murder except for Erdogan. Is that your source? Erdogan?

I'm disappointed you didn't answer my question. Third time's a charm:

How liberal do you think the average Islamic cleric is?

And this question:

What do you think about Kratman's take on the coup as a controlled LIHOP?

[JackRiddler]

Controlled LIHOP is pretty obvious as a minimum scenario. The AKP were on top of whatever this conspiracy was, either knew it was coming (as Castro knew all about the Bay of Pigs) or possibly penetrated its upper echelons and activated it at the time of their own choosing.

I don't know who can see this list of the purged professional categories, adding up to 45,000 and growing: https://www.facebook.com/29745963045687 ... 99/?type=3

My comment:

‪#‎WhoseCoupWasIt‬ ‪#‎ErdoganPutsch‬

Last week's military coup attempt failed within hours, and it's time for sympathetic outsiders to acknowledge and act according to what progressive forces in Turkey are saying. The failed coup was only briefly a triumph of democracy against its familiar foes in the Turkish military. It then became an instant pretext for a so-far successful, thoroughgoing putsch against democracy by the ruling AKP. And this is only an escalation of violent and disturbing developments going back to the government's violent response to the Taksim protests of 2013 and before.

Erdogan and his party are ginning up their loyalists into a general-purpose lynch mob and violently knocking down all remaining legal and institutional obstacles to their unitary, unconditional rule. As the graphic shows, in the wake of a coup that appears to have involved no more than a few hundred military officers, more than 45,000 primarily civilian employees have been summarily arrested, fired or suspended.

The smoking gun was already visible on the evening of the coup, with the immediate sacking of 2,745 judges and magistrates even before the street battles were decided. That list was prepared beforehand, and no one should need to defend against accusations of paranoia or have to legitimate such a self-evident observation by pointing out that EU officials and the Turkish ambassador to Bulgaria have also said as much.

The forced resignation of university administrators covers all deans at all of the country's institutions of higher learning - they will all presumably have to pass ideological testing or be replaced. To the suspension of at least 15,000 education ministry employees (that means teachers, mostly), add the revocation of licenses for another 20,000 private teachers (not listed). This is a broad attack to consolidate AKP power on all fronts, with the coup and the supposed uprooting of the Gulen network as very loose justifications.

For all the braying about Gulen, even to the point of implications that Turkey is now at war with the U.S. for harboring him, is there any doubt which usual suspects will be and are being targeted for the brunt of the state's violence? Kurds in Turkey and in Syria, journalists, the left, civil society activists, the HDP -- all those who had absolutely nothing to do with either side of the coup.

Historical analogies can be useful but encourage often false ideas about significance and likely outcomes. The Nazis' actions in the wake of the Reichstag fire seem too dreadful to invoke, but there are many other examples in different contexts and with varying stories. The legitimately elected Pruvian president Alberto Fujimori preempted a real military coup attempt in 1992 with his own presidential putsch, setting himself up as an unconditional dictator for the next eight years. Attempting to resolve his conflict with a stubborn state and party bureaucracy that he regarded as too conservative, Mao resorted to declaring a cultural revolution, and there is a whiff of a similarly radical if ideologically very different process underway in Turkey today.

By definition, coup=conspiracy. Coups of state are the ancient, original paradigm of conspiratorial action in politics. Speculation from the outside follows of necessity, and common sense conclusions shouldn't be ruled out preemptively. The "false flag" idea sets up a mystifying and probably useless binary. Whatever the details of the failed military conspiracy -- and they are unlikely to emerge without distortion in the present atmosphere -- it's clear that the leaders of the government knew the coup was coming and prepared their response and subsequent actions in advance. It no longer matters whether these actions were already scheduled regardless of the military coup, or have been activated as a contingency plan in its wake. That the AKP and government are willing to go to these lengths is enough.

Erdogan's putsch is the reality with which people in Turkey must contend. They deserve whatever small help our solidarity can provide.

[slimmouse]

Sybil Edmunds ( who I wll admit annoys me to death now and then) suggests that this is a kind of soft coup.

Anyone who doesnt understand what that means within this particular context, needs to go to either the corbett report , or the boiling frogs website to understand this point of view.


Oh and for what its worth, Graham Fuller is a brazen faced liar and Madrassa Gulen is a mass murderer.

[seemslikeadream]

The Crisis in Turkey Could Swallow Us All
by William Boardman / July 22nd, 2016

Whatever happens next, it’s not likely to be pretty

Turkey has been in a growing crisis for years, and the end seems nowhere in sight.

In the wake of the failed military coup, Turkish officials and civilians are pointing the finger at the U.S. for instigating it. “America is behind the coup,” said Turkey’s Labor Minister Suleyman Solyu. Solyu is a close ally of Turkey’s President Recip Tayyip Erdogan, who also blames the U.S. for harboring the Islamic cleric he says was behind the coup.

Officially, the U.S. says that speculation that the U.S. supported the coup is “categorically untrue.” Officially, the U.S. says it is “factually incorrect” to say it is harboring the cleric, Fethullah Gulen, who lives in a secluded, 26-acre gated compound in Saylorsville (pop. 1,126 in 2010) in rural, northeastern Pennsylvania. From there, at the Golden Generation Worship and Retreat Center, Gulen, 75, reportedly runs a murky, billion-dollar global program of Islamic education and proselytizing called the Gulen Movement, also known as Hizmet (“service”) and Cemaat (“community”). And the Gulen people have contributed substantially to the Clinton Foundation and Hillary Clinton’s campaign.

Gulen has denied any involvement with the attempted coup, although it appears to have involved Gulen Movement officers in the Turkish military. Gulen followers generally do not identify themselves as such. Gulen told the Associated Press: “In brief, I don’t even know who my followers are. You can think about many motivations of people who staged this coup.”

A Turkish court issued an arrest warrant for Gulen in December 2014 that is still outstanding. Another Turkish court issued an arrest warrant for Gulen in November 2015, based on a 10,529-page indictment. In April 2016, Turkish police rounded up some 2,261 people accused of being Gulen followers creating a “parallel” state in Turkey.

The Erdogan government has demanded that the U.S. send Gulen back to Turkey, and may have also filed a formal extradition request. Officially, the U.S. has received what the Turks described as “four dossiers … of the terrorist chief” and the U.S. is “in the process of analyzing under the treaty” governing extradition. Erdogan and Gulen have been fighting for years, after even more years as allies. Now the U.S. finds itself, innocently or not (Gulen had CIA help to get his green card), in what amounts to a high stakes lovers’ quarrel. Whatever the U.S. ends up deciding is likely to prolong the chain reaction of critical events set off by the coup, with national, regional, and potentially global impact.

Turkish democracy is suspended by “state of emergency” declaration

Although the coup failed in part because of broad popular opposition to another military takeover (Turkey has had four since 1960), widespread opposition to Erdogan and his Islamist government remains, even though they came to power through a democratic process. Turkey is both a democracy and, since 2002, effectively a one-party state. Turkey’s population of 79 million is mostly Sunni Muslim, but the country has been proudly secular for most of a century. Both Erdogan and Gulen represent an Islamist challenge to secular government. Turkey’s human rights record in recent decades has been bad enough to keep it from acceptance into the European Union. During World War I, Turkey committed genocide against Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontic Greeks, and Turkish law today forbids public discussion of its atrocities (a form of national denial). In the wake of the coup, the Erdogan government declared a three-month state of emergency, enabling it to act autocratically against broad sections of the population, summarily punishing them if not killing them. Long accused of consolidating ever more power in the presidency, Erdogan has moved quickly to purge more than 50,000 suspected opponents, using the coup as a justification. Early reports, including a New York Times editorial headed “Mr. Erdogan’s Reckless Revenge,” include these actions:

more than 6,000 soldiers detained (600,000-strong military is second-largest in NATO, U.S. is #1)
60 military high school students suspended
8,000 police officers detained or suspended
3,000 judges and prosecutors dismissed
100 intelligence officers dismissed
492 employees of the Religious Affairs Directorate dismissed
399 employees of Ministry of Family and Social Policies suspended
257 employees of the prime minister’s office dismissed
300 employees of the energy ministry dismissed
15,000 employees of the education ministry suspended
21,000 teachers in the education ministry, licenses revoked
1,577 university deans, forced to resign
8,777 interior ministry workers dismissed
1,500 employees of the finance ministry dismissed
47 district governors dismissed
30 of 81 provincial governors arrested
103 admirals and generals (out of 375) suspended, at least 85 of them jailed, including the commander of Incirlik air base (he sought asylum with U.S. forces, who refused)
Turkey’s bad human rights record likely to get worse

Of these, roughly 9,000 have been taken into custody, including 6,000 soldiers. According to past behavior, the Turks will torture as many as they feel like. The scale of the purge has prompted the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Zeid Ra’ad Hussein to express “serious concern” and ask that independent monitors be allowed to visit those detained. This surge toward autocracy caused concern at a special meeting of the European Parliament, leading one member to say of Erdogan, “I hope recent events will not be used to further ‘Putinise’ Turkey.” Erdogan’s recent suggestion of reinstating the death penalty in Turkey led members to note that such a move would end the possibility of Turkey’s joining the European Union.

The Erdogan government is taking such sweeping action because it believes a second coup attempt is possible, according to Patrick Coburn of the Independent. Reportedly, the government believes pro-coup forces had penetrated the government more deeply than it had previously thought, so it must purge them to assure its long-term survival. That leaves the question: if that penetration is real, why didn’t it surface during the coup?

Prime Minister Binali Yildrim claimed, although the purge provided no due process of law, that those dismissed or arrested were all members of the Gulen Movement: “This parallel terrorist organization will no longer be an effective pawn for any country…. We will dig them up by their roots.”

Additionally, the Erdogan government has:

Banned Turkish academics from travelling abroad, to prevent coup plotters from fleeing. At Istanbul University, 95 academic were sacked.
Banned all other active public servants from travelling abroad, including the Turkish Defense Minister who was scheduled to attend a coalition summit in the U.S.
Revoked the press credentials of 34 Turkish journalists.
Blocked 20 online news websites.
Promised to close more than 626 private schools.
Revoked the licenses of 24 radio and TV operations, through the Supreme Council of Radio and Television.
The initial market reaction to Turkey’s state of emergency saw Turkish currency reaching an all-time low, while stocks and bonds also fell sharply. While Western leaders mostly fretted from afar, Russian president Vladimir Putin called Erdogan and complimented him on surviving and restoring order so quickly.

Under the state of emergency declared by Erdogan, the constitution is suspended and the government will rule by decree. According to Erdogan, his absolute power will be used in the interest of democracy, “and there will be no restriction on rights and freedoms…. We will remain within a democratic parliamentary system. We will never step away from it.” Although the state of emergency must be published in a state gazette and approved by Parliament to become official, that has inhibited Erdogan from exercising its authority. “The aim of the declaration of the state of emergency is to be able to take fast and effective steps against this threat against democracy, the rule of law and rights and freedoms of our citizens,” Erdogan promised. (Curiously, New Jersey governor Chris Christie was also promising that, as President, Donald Trump would try to act like Erdogan, and purge the government of all political appointees by President Obama, roughly 852 people out of 3,164 total political appointees.)

What would Turkey do in a crisis with the U.S., Europe, NATO?

WikiLeaks has started releasing hundreds of thousands of emails relating to Erdogan’s ruling Justice and Development (AKP) party. On July 19, the first release included 294,548 emails and thousands of attached files despite being under severe cyber attack (by Turkish forces, WikiLeaks assumes). The emails begin in 2010 and the most recent was sent July 6, 2016. WikiLeaks soft-pedaled the potential impact of these emails, saying that “emails associated with the domain are mostly used for dealing with the world, as opposed to the most sensitive internal matters.” Turkey has blocked access to the WikiLeaks website.

When Europeans criticized the Turkish state of emergency, Erdogan said they had “no right” to do so. If the Europeans get too tough with Turkey, what’s to prevent Turkey from releasing millions of refugees into Europe again? There are 2.7 million Syrian asylum seekers in Turkey, mostly fleeing the Syrian government and sympathetic to the Islamic State (ISIS). Europe made a devil’s bargain with Turkey to keep them from over-running Europe. Why should an Islamist Turkey be expected to keep that bargain indefinitely?

Erdogan has said that the U.S. will be making a “big mistake” if it fails to turn over Fethullah Gulen. If that happens, will Turkey help less in the “war” against ISIS, in which it has long been fighting on both sides? (Donald Trump has said Turkey is on the side of ISIS.) Or would Turkey turn on the Kurds in northern Syria who are currently the most effective anti-ISIS fighting force? Would Turkey find that its military has been too weakened to fight the Kurds effectively? Would Erdogan finally indulge his desire to join Syrian president Bashar al Assad in a real or virtual federal alliance to control the region? Pushed too hard by the U.S. would Erdogan turn to Russia?

Erdogan has said he did not want to link the delivery of Gulen to Turkish justice with the continued cooperation between the U.S. and Turkey in using the Incirlik air base – thereby linking the two. Incirlik is a Turkish base with a strong NATO presence (including some 2,700 Americans). The previous Turkish commander of the base is now under arrest for his role in the coup, including sending up F-16s and refueling tankers from Incirlik. Erdogan might well ask: what did the Americans there know, and when did they know it? Incirlik is important in the war on ISIS as the base from which most air attacks on ISIS originate. Responding to the coup, the Turkish government cut power to Incirlik and imposed a no-fly zone, shutting it down. That sealed-off condition continued through July 20, with no one allowed to leave or enter the base, although air attacks on ISIS have reportedly resumed. As of July 21, Incirlik was apparently being held hostage by the Turkish government, although neither side is calling it a hostage situation.

And then there are the nuclear weapons stored at Incirlik, even though the air base has no planes capable of delivering them at present. Incirlik has about 50 B-61 hydrogen bombs, each more than ten times as powerful as the bomb dropped over Hiroshima. It is NATO’s largest nuclear stockpile. NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg has contributed to speculation that Turkey could lose NATO membership, saying about Turkey: “Being part of a unique community of values, it is essential for Turkey, like all other allies, to ensure full respect for democracy and its institutions, the constitutional order, the rule of law and fundamental freedoms.”

There are about 2,700 American troops at Incirlik. That is not a force sufficient to prevent the Turks from taking the base – and the nuclear weapons ­– pretty much any time they choose. And then what? As Jonathan Marshall in Consortium News pointedly wonders: What are we doing storing nuclear weapons in Turkey anyway? Who is the imagined target of these Cold War leftovers?

Turkey is a longstanding, unsolved, and intractable problem that presidents and candidates go out of their way as much as possible not to address. That will change fast if it’s played as a hostage crisis. Presumably there’s a U.S. aircraft carrier already in the eastern Mediterranean, or well on its way.

[Novem5er]

JackRiddler, that was about as great a response as I'll ever see in a Facebook post. Good on you for keeping it real.

I just want to say that I appreciate the insight that members of this board provide, on this topic especially. I'd probably never see most of the articles people have shared if it weren't for this thread.

After watching Trump's bold and terrifying acceptance speech, has anyone considered if something like this could ever happen in America? I don't think a military coup is ever in our nature (even a soft one), but could there be some national emergency that could invoke executive powers that would cost tens of thousands of Americans their professional careers? It'd be hard on the university level because those are not federally controlled, but there could be a gutting of the national bureaucracy. Given a large enough scare, private and state institutions could go on their own witch-hunts. Obviously we had something of a Red Scare back in the day, and since everything old is new again, is it time for another round of blacklisting?

[JackRiddler]

Thank you Novem5er.

I don't think a military coup is ever in our nature (even a soft one), but could there be some national emergency that could invoke executive powers that would cost tens of thousands of Americans their professional careers?

Let's not talk of "our nature." No PTB would want to give up the legitimacy of the long-established constitutional mode and the awesome symbolic power of the U.S. presidency. Coups here are done through the presidency. National politics is ridiculously concentrated and personalized through it, so that basically magical powers are ascribed to it, for example as if Obama implements the long-standing policy of empre (I do think he did it in a way that was probably less horrible than what the alternatives would have provided, believe it or not), or as if presidencies (independent of fiscal policy) somehow determine the economic outcomes.

There was a military coup (mainly one of the clandestine services) and it disguised itself as a lone gunman changing presidents by pulling a trigger. It may not have been the only such occurrence. There has been secret government, but it clusters around the presidency and the executive. There have been putsches and I believe 9/11 was so employed, but that too was run through the presidency (in that case barely "elected.") One president was brought down openly, and most PTB commentators still treat that as a worst-case scenario that must never be repeated because of the potential loss of confidence -- thus reinforcing the executive branch's power. One president was subjected to a kind of policy coup in the late 1990s, but he surfed it and despite the appearance of "polarization" effected a consensus policy thrust (more neoliberalism).

OOPS, SORRY, I'M BEING AN AMERICAN AGAIN - forgot this was the Turkey thread. Please ignore the above!

[Novem5er]

American or Turkish, it's a good analysis, and you hit what I meant when I said "not in our nature". In America we hold up the Constitution on equal ground as the Bible, itself (for those that revere it). Legitimacy is everything, which is why I think we all witnessed Obama forgiving the Bush admin for the horrors of Iraq and refusing to investigate or prosecute any of the outgoing admin. The Liberal base screamed at our new Liberal Savior to dole out some punishment to the Bush team (seriously, you can lie and start a war, but nobody gets arrested? Fired even?), but Obama declined to do so, in the spirit of moving forward.

No, more likely he wanted to protect the sanctity of the Office, and looking down the road four or eight years, he didn't want some upstart Republican to come after HIM for similar crimes.

Back to Turkey, sometimes I envy the efficiency of change that newer nations seem to enjoy. Obviously, coups and revolutions can be bloody affairs and lead to disastrous results, but I'll be damned if there isn't something appealing about firing congress overnight. Now, a lot Americans think our current government is tyrannical and hold tightly their AR-15s, awaiting the coming 2nd Revolutionary War with baited breath and antici . . . pation. Probably half of these people would openly welcome a military coup, just to get the ball rolling, while the other half would see that as a sign of even more tyranny.

Alright, enough out of me. Its way to early for me to be up on a Saturday. While many in the US are anxiously awaiting revolution, I'm pacing the house waiting for the appliance repair guy to come fix my dryer

[seemslikeadream]

Firefighters battle massive blaze near NATO base in Turkey after 'sabotage attempt'

A HUGE fire has broken out near the NATO base in Turkey in what officials fear may be a sabotage attempt.

By JAKE BURMAN AND CHARLIE BAYLISS
PUBLISHED: 00:00, Mon, Jul 25, 2016 | UPDATED: 01:05, Mon, Jul 25, 2016


The fire started late on Sunday evening before quickly spreading, burning almost 100 acres of forest.

The blaze – which started on the border of the Sahintepe and Mevkiinde districts – is said to be quickly spreading towards the NATO base and a number of populated areas due to strong winds in the region.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpm53p4vOwY

Amnesty International Reports 'Credible Evidence' Turkey Torturing Post-coup Detainees
'Reports of abuse including beatings and rape in detention are extremely alarming, especially given the scale of detentions that we have seen in the past week,' Amnesty International’s Europe director John Dalhuisen says.

Haaretz Jul 24, 2016 9:02 PM

Thousands rally in Istanbul on July 24, 2016 to condemn a thwarted military coup against President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
Tightening grip on Turkey, Erdogan closes private schools, charities and unions
The failed putsch in Turkey put the last nail in Ataturk's coffin
Turkey investigating people who claim failed coup was a hoax
Amnesty International reported on Sunday it has credible evidence that post-coup detainees in Turkey are being beaten and tortured, including by rape.
In a statement posted on its website, the human rights organization  demanded independent monitors be given immediate access to detainees being held in sports centers, police headquarters and courthouses.
Amnesty said more than 10,000 people have been detained since the failed coup of July 15 in a crackdown focused against the military.
The group charged that Turkish police in Ankara and Istanbul are keeping detainees in stress positions for up to two days at a time, beating them and denying them food, water and medical treatment. The detainees are being held arbitrarily and are denied access to lawyers and family, and are not properly informed of the charges against them, Amnesty said.
Amnesty said it interviewed  lawyers, doctors and a person on duty in a detention facility who insisted on anonymity for security reasons.
Interviewees gave Amnesty "extremely alarming accounts of torture and other ill-treatment of detainees." According to the group, the worst treatment in detention was reserved for higher-ranking military officers. Lawyers in Ankara cited detainees as saying they witnessed senior military officers being raped.
"Reports of abuse including beatings and rape in detention are extremely alarming, especially given the scale of detentions that we have seen in the past week. The grim details that we have documented are just a snapshot of the abuses that might be happening in places of detention,” said Amnesty International’s Europe director John Dalhuisen.
"It is absolutely imperative that the Turkish authorities halt these abhorrent practices and allow international monitors to visit all these detainees in the places they are being held.”
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/turkey/1.733018

[JackRiddler]

Haaretz Jul 24, 2016 9:02 PM

Thousands rally in Istanbul on July 24, 2016 to condemn a thwarted military coup against President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

No. No. Looks like tens of thousands and they - HDP, CHP, unions and democratic activists - rallied in Taksim Square/Gezi Park to condemn both the coup, which of course failed, and more importantly the attack on democracy by Erdogan since then.

[PufPuf93]

I wish AliceKurious would check in to RI and comment on the Turkey failed coup.

My understanding is that folks some consider Gulen liberal in the sense in that Gulen presents a more ecumentical / unity form of Islam where the various sects of Islam and Christianity and other faiths can co-exist.

Sibel Edmonds is of the opinion that the coup attempt was Gulen (and NATO and CIA) related.

Newsbud Breaking News: Turkey’s Coup Plotters are Members of NATO’s Rapid Deployable Corps

CIA-Gulen Driven Turkish Police Forces Aided & Abetted the Failed Coup Plot

The three most important regiments involved in the Turkey Attempted Coup plot and implementation have been part (members) of NATO’s Rapid Deployable Corps (NRDC) since 2003.

A group of plotters of the failed Turkish Coup Attempt used a WhatsApp group to communicate with each other. Based on well-documented information and established identities gathered from these intercepted communications, at least three out of the five coupist regiments were (and still are) part of NATO’s Rapid Deployable Corps. Further, the group used the emblem and slogan used by NATO’s Rapid Deployable Corps: “Peace at home, peace in the world.”

The intercepted communications also expose the role of the CIA-Gulen network within Turkey’s police force, and how it readily welcomed and aided the Failed Coup Attempt.

Newsbud news with Sibel Edmonds and Spiro Skouras delves into this significant exposé and provides viewers with context and analyses missing from western media outlets.

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2016/07 ... ble-corps/

US General Campbell: The ‘Likely’ NBC News Source in its Scandalous False Reporting on the Turkey Coup Attempt

Newsbud sources have identified Former NATO Commander-Retired US Army General John F. Campbell as the ‘likely’ NBC News’ source in NBC’s scandalous false reporting on the Turkey Coup Attempt during the most critical early hours of the failed coup operation.

On July 15, 2016, as an attempted coup unfolded in Turkey, NBC began to report and then circulate widely that Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdogan had fled the country by air and was requesting asylum in Germany. NBC attributed the false report to its senior US military official- MSNBC Producer Kyle Griffin’s tweet stated, “senior US military source tells NBC News that Erdogan, refused landing rights in Istanbul, is reported to be seeking asylum in Germany.” The story has been deleted from NBC and related sites since being debunked. Newsbud sources have identified General Campbell as the likely NBC News’ Senior Military Official source in this strategically broadcasted false story.

On Monday, July 25, the Turkish Embassy in Washington D.C. sent its official request for public retraction and apology to the relevant divisions at NBC News. A few hours after that, Newsbud’s founder and Editor Sibel Edmonds received direct e-mail communication from the MSNBC Producer involved … Watch the video for related developments and updates in Newsbud’s Campaign #ConfrontNBC.

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2016/07 ... p-attempt/

[slimmouse]

May the force be with you, James Corbett.

Lets look at little more closely, Once again) at Mr Gulen.

Of particular interest should be the US state departments reaction to the question of exactly what the liberal islamic cleric is still doing in the US already..?

I reckon that many of US state dept press conferences Ive seen recently, might aptly be renamed Onion TV .

[JackRiddler]

Chickens again coming home to roost on American imperialism in the form of given the history today any bullshit about American orchestration (and Gulen, in this case, who is a fundamentalist former ally of Erdogan, in no way a liberal personage!) can and will be sold. The victims of this falsehood are not the American state, obviously, they are the Turkish people in the crosshairs. The coup d'etat under whatever model, LIHOP or independent, with or without Americans or NATO involved (seriously doubt it), was over after a couple of hours on July 15. Everything since then has been the opportunistic or planned Erdogan-AKP putsch against the opposition, democracy, and independent social forces who had nothing to do with the coup.

Despite leaning in this direction of pretending the tens of thousands sacked and imprisoned are "Gulen network" and "coup," here is some interesting reading on possible emergence of Russia-Turkey axis:

http://johnhelmer.net/?p=16140

[Novem5er]

^^ Interesting!

If Turkey and Russia formed a pact of their own, it would spell real trouble for NATO. Imagine if both pushed westward at the same time! I honestly have a hard time imagining another shooting war in Europe, but I suppose it's possible. I see alliance as being mostly energy and market-based, but obviously it helps to have a large weapon (and nukes) to deter outside aggression.

I posted tonight in another thread about Hillary's plan to escalate or "reset" the war in Syria if she is elected; with a goal of simultaneously defeating ISIS and Assad. I can't imagine Russia will actually like that from the Assad point of view, and Turkey won't like it from the ISIS point of view.

[Belligerent Savant]

.
So who'd be the next hobgoblin(s) if/when ISIS and Assad are defeated? You know, to keep the populace alarmed, and hence, clamorous to be led to safety?