Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:30 pm

.

Harvey » Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:21 pm wrote:
No offense, but you talk about the fourth industrial revolution the same way certain swivel-eyed loons talk about Agenda 21. It's not some grand master plan to take away your freedom, it's just a label used to describe the various automation processes in industry being enabled by modern information technology.


Read it. See if you feel the same way.

https://docplayer.net/11835886-The-four ... ution.html


Haven't looked at DrEvil's reply just yet, but to briefly bolt on to Harvey's comment above:

It's a (gross) mischaracterization to say I view this purported '4th Industrial Revolution'/Great Reset as described in the bit quoted above.

Of course, moving past our current economic/macro models may well be necessary/inevitable, and as such, there will be growing pains.

But to wave your hands to any concern about the agendas being planned is naive, and frankly, quite foolish.

As we've seen -- particularly this year -- they will get away with whatever we collectively allow unless we push back. We can only push back by increased awareness, and by filtering through propaganda.

I may (or may not) add more to this later after reading through prior responses.

.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Harvey » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:41 pm

Belligerent Savant » Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:30 pm wrote:.

Harvey » Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:21 pm wrote:
No offense, but you talk about the fourth industrial revolution the same way certain swivel-eyed loons talk about Agenda 21. It's not some grand master plan to take away your freedom, it's just a label used to describe the various automation processes in industry being enabled by modern information technology.


Read it. See if you feel the same way.

https://docplayer.net/11835886-The-four ... ution.html

But to wave your hands to any concern about the agendas being planned is naive, and frankly, quite foolish.


Couldn't agree more.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:48 pm

.

I imagine a segment of the global populace will be (already are) just fine with permanent work from home/ordering food exclusively online/minimal interaction with other humans and/or the outdoors, so long as they have their internet connection and a steady paycheck*. Once truly realistic Virtual Reality becomes available, the outside world can be fully drowned out -- ignored -- while experiencing a personally-curated simulacrum of reality.


*or recurring Universal Basic Income -- but only if agreeing to and meeting specific govt qualifications. Failure to maintain quals will result in revocation of your UBI.


A variation of the above seems inevitable.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby DrEvil » Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:35 am

Belligerent Savant » Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:30 pm wrote:.

Harvey » Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:21 pm wrote:
No offense, but you talk about the fourth industrial revolution the same way certain swivel-eyed loons talk about Agenda 21. It's not some grand master plan to take away your freedom, it's just a label used to describe the various automation processes in industry being enabled by modern information technology.


Read it. See if you feel the same way.

https://docplayer.net/11835886-The-four ... ution.html


Haven't looked at DrEvil's reply just yet, but to briefly bolt on to Harvey's comment above:

It's a (gross) mischaracterization to say I view this purported '4th Industrial Revolution'/Great Reset as described in the bit quoted above.

Of course, moving past our current economic/macro models may well be necessary/inevitable, and as such, there will be growing pains.

But to wave your hands to any concern about the agendas being planned is naive, and frankly, quite foolish.

As we've seen -- particularly this year -- they will get away with whatever we collectively allow unless we push back. We can only push back by increased awareness, and by filtering through propaganda.

I may (or may not) add more to this later after reading through prior responses.

.


First off, apologies for my sharp tone in my previous post. That was out of line.

I was referring to the German government's original 'Industrie 4.0' vision, not Schwab's fever dream. For what it's worth he can get fucked.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby conniption » Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:11 pm

Catherine Austin Fitts on COVID-19 & World Affairs - The Dr. Peter Breggin Hour - November 4, 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42ydri0XExg

Peter Breggin MD

A brilliant analyst of COVID-19 and world affairs. Catherine Austin Fitts is a former investment banker and Assistant Secretary at HUD, an insightful analyst of world affairs and staunch defender of freedom who has advanced my knowledge of globalism and its relationship to the catastrophic handling of COVID-19. She now manages Solari Investment Advisory Services. Catherine offers unusually brilliant insights into the tragic totalitarian direction the world is taking while working hard to teach us all to understand and to survive.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:15 pm

DrEvil » Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:35 am wrote:
Belligerent Savant » Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:30 pm wrote:.

Harvey » Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:21 pm wrote:
No offense, but you talk about the fourth industrial revolution the same way certain swivel-eyed loons talk about Agenda 21. It's not some grand master plan to take away your freedom, it's just a label used to describe the various automation processes in industry being enabled by modern information technology.


Read it. See if you feel the same way.

https://docplayer.net/11835886-The-four ... ution.html


Haven't looked at DrEvil's reply just yet, but to briefly bolt on to Harvey's comment above:

It's a (gross) mischaracterization to say I view this purported '4th Industrial Revolution'/Great Reset as described in the bit quoted above.

Of course, moving past our current economic/macro models may well be necessary/inevitable, and as such, there will be growing pains.

But to wave your hands to any concern about the agendas being planned is naive, and frankly, quite foolish.

As we've seen -- particularly this year -- they will get away with whatever we collectively allow unless we push back. We can only push back by increased awareness, and by filtering through propaganda.

I may (or may not) add more to this later after reading through prior responses.

.


First off, apologies for my sharp tone in my previous post. That was out of line.

I was referring to the German government's original 'Industrie 4.0' vision, not Schwab's fever dream. For what it's worth he can get fucked.


All good, Dr. Evil - we may not always agree (it'd be boring anyway if we always agreed, at least here), but always appreciate your character/spirit.

No need to apologize.


Conniption - i'll need to listen to that clip when time allows. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:21 pm

.

Tip of the cap to Jeff Wells who led me to this article via his Twitter feed. This is an excellent exposition.

This excerpt is particularly key: hits on the conditioning/reinforcement aspect of what we've been enduring. A bit synchronous as I was just making a very similar point to a poor soul that happened to lend me his ear for a bit:

In hindsight, the mandating of masks seems to have been a pivotal turning point: just as the public were induced to cover their faces, the mask of a voluntary partnership with our governments began to slip away. Indeed, the whole communal, consent-based spirit of the initial lockdown was soon abandoned: increasingly bizarre, absurd and self-contradictory edicts emerged on a daily basis, and new police powers to enforce them. And we began to see disturbing scenes emerging in Australia, and increasingly, in our own countries.


The article in full -- worth sharing broadly:

When the Unthinkable Becomes the Everyday: Covid-19 and Authoritarianism

The idea that our society might be moving in a fundamentally bad direction is an extremely difficult one to grapple with. We are aware that society is deeply flawed, sometimes even to the point of cynicism; and yet there is a certain basic soundness in the orientation of our society which we assume as a kind of bedrock.

Nevertheless, societies and whole cultures have gone bad in the past. We read about these slow, incremental drifts into authoritarianism and fascism in the history books of the twentieth century, always assuming with the benefit of hindsight that we would recognise the threat, and resist it if it ever emerged in our own time. In reality, however, to live through such a period must be quite different from reading about it in a history book. The sensation, I suspect, would be akin a child discovering some deep flaw in their parent. Our first impulse would be to repress the awareness, often until it is too late.

The idea that our response to the Covid-19 pandemic might be moving us in the direction of the authoritarian horrors of the last century is one that a great many are resistant to. They may feel, for example, that we are living with an extraordinary circumstance, and that the response, however undesirable and unprecedented, remains unavoidable in the face of the threat.

Even to those who feel this way, however, the danger of authoritarianism is something which we should all meditate very deeply on. The comparatively free societies which we have grown up in are a rare and precarious achievement; we are simply not aware how precarious because they are the only world we have ever known.

As the former Supreme Court justice and historian Lord Sumption pointed out in July: ‘Despotisms arise not because our liberty is forcibly taken away by tyrants but because people voluntarily surrender their liberty in return for protection from some perceived threat, and it is in the interests of governments to exaggerate that threat in order to procure compliance.’

Or, as the Italian philosopher Giorgio Agamben reminds us in August, ‘The state of emergency is the mechanism, history teaches us, by which democracies become totalitarian states.’

‘Parasite Stress’

The state of emergency is precisely when the free society is most imperilled, and pandemics are perhaps the most threatening to free democracy. The fear of contagion is deep-rooted in our genetics. It is for this reason that the language of infection and disease is so often the primary tool of demagogues and dictators.

The ‘Parasite Stress’ hypothesis holds that ‘authoritarian governments are more likely to emerge in regions characterised by a high prevalence of disease-carrying pathogens.’ Students of the psychology of politics have long noted a correlation between obsessive fear of contamination and the maintenance of rituals of cleanliness and order with the emergence of right-wing authoritarian tendencies. The theories of racial hygiene which underpinned the Nazi movement remain the most notorious and disturbing example of a regime utilizing the language of infectious threat to promote a totalitarian and racist ideology.

Others will reject concern about the increasingly authoritarian turn our societies have taken on the basis of an association with conspiracy theories. However, no conspiracy of any kind is really necessary for a society to slide into authoritarianism.

An awareness of psychology and history tells us that such a thing can happen entirely organically. Power is an innate appetite of human beings. It is such a strong drive that it can frequently seduce individuals without their conscious awareness. There is a reason why our liberal democracies are essentially predicated on the principle of providing checks and balances to curtail the powers of our ruling classes and bodies: unchecked power is dangerous.

This, again, is why the state of emergency is so perilous: it is the period where those checks and balances are willingly revoked by the population, and this is why the emergency is the best friend of the would-be dictator. What I think is particularly alarming about our current situation with Covid-19 is that we have now excepted the state of emergency – with all its suspension of democratic norms, civil liberties and curbs on state power – on an indefinite basis. Lets look briefly at how that happened.

Lockdown

The initial decision to lock down was perceived as momentous, and there was considerable discussion and soul-searching as to whether or not it was the correct course of action to take. The crucial moment, however, came later and passed largely unnoticed. The initial premise for locking down, it is vital to remember, was that it would be a short-term measure whose entire function was to prevent health services from being overwhelmed. Whether or not the decision was ultimately correct, it can at least be said that this first notion of lockdown was not entirely unreasonable on the face of it. It was an emergency measure which had a distinct goal and a set duration. The pivotal moment in all this was not when we agreed to lockdown, but rather when the underlying rationale for the lockdown was changed.

The happened in April, and in a quite peculiar way. There was no explicit announcement, no suggestion that such a significant matter should be a subject of national debate. Rather, there was a distinct change of language, a process whereby certain ideas were slipped into the conversation.

We would be ‘doing this until there is vaccine’ ministers suggested for the first time. On April 16th, for example, UK health minister Nadine Dorries testily announced on Twitter: ‘Journalists should stop asking about an ‘exit strategy.’ There is only one way we can ‘exit’ full lockdown and that is when we have a vaccine.’


Journalists should stop asking about an ‘exit strategy.’ There is only one way we can ‘exit’ full lockdown and that is when we have a vaccine. Until then, we need to find ways we can adapt society and strike a balance between the health of the nation and our economy . #COVID19

— Nadine Dorries #StayAlert (@NadineDorries) April 15, 2020


This was also when we first began to hear the expression the ‘New Normal,’ repeated ad nauseam as a kind of spell to ward off critical reflection and debate. With virtually no debate or scrutiny from the media or political opposition, the rationale of the lockdown was changed from stopping the health service from being overwhelmed to suppressing the spread of the virus, putatively until a vaccine or some other innovation emerged.

The significance of this manoeuvre cannot be understated: it meant that the state of emergency, with all its dangerous suspension of democratic norms, has been extended, without oversight or opposition, indefinitely into the future. There needed to be a discussion in April about how sustainable and harmful such a process might be in the longer term, and how much sacrifice and suffering was effectively being gambled on the speculative efficacy of a vaccine which didn’t even exist at that point. Sadly, this conversation never really happened, owing to the decline of adversarial journalism and the torpor of political opposition.

For myself, I can remember being stunned and deeply shaken by this development. It felt as though freedoms which I had taken for granted all my life were suddenly, starkly cast away, perhaps forever. It seemed quite clear to me that the new model of suppression was entirely self-perpetuating: the more successful you are at suppressing the virus, the longer you will have to suppress it, because what you are also suppressing is natural immunity. We were committing ourselves to a endless cycle of deeply harmful measures and restrictions, supposedly on the basis that the eventual emergence of a vaccine would restore normalcy.

However, the efficacy of the vaccine was by no means guaranteed, and what was far more certain was that we would have done more harm to ourselves through the restrictions than the virus itself by that point. It was madness – the kind of self-destructive madness that emerges once a century or so, and completely unseats one’s faith in the power of human reason.

Fear and Mobilization

To return then to the theme of authoritarianism: how might the ongoing Covid-19 response be compared to an emergent system of authoritarian or even totalitarian control? In both instances, you will have a population whose attention is riveted to one subject to the exclusion of all others. The subject will always be an enemy or threat of some kind: the Communists, the Jews, or, in this particular instance, a virus.

Once the population is sufficiently afraid, the next step is mobilisation. By means of a joint government/media propaganda drive, the public is mobilized to a grand communal project, which can be the building of socialist paradise or Third Reich, a war effort, or indeed a unified national effort to slow the spread of a respiratory virus.

By this time, certain psychological effects become apparent in the populace: critical reflection is replaced by the repetition of command slogans (For King and Country! Stay Home, Stay Safe, Slow the Spread), and spontaneous acts of conscience are replaced by blind adherence to rules. As in the infamous Milgram Experiment, once a person concedes their autonomy to the State, their conscience goes with it, and the authoritarian regime is characterised by a slowly creeping banality of everyday evil.

The question remains, of course, are we really moving into authoritarianism, or are some of us simply imagining it? There was a peculiar period in late May and June when I thought my anxieties had been unfounded. Following the death of George Floyd, the media focused all its attention on racial justice and police brutality, and for a period of about two weeks, Covid-19 literally vanished from the public consciousness.

At that point, it looked as though things were getting back to normal: the epidemic had peaked, deaths and hospitalisations were beginning to flatline, and here in Ireland we had a roadmap back to normalcy with actual set dates. Since that brief oasis, however, things have taken a turn which has far exceeded my worst fears in April.

In hindsight, the mandating of masks seems to have been a pivotal turning point: just as the public were induced to cover their faces, the mask of a voluntary partnership with our governments began to slip away. Indeed, the whole communal, consent-based spirit of the initial lockdown was soon abandoned: increasingly bizarre, absurd and self-contradictory edicts emerged on a daily basis, and new police powers to enforce them. And we began to see disturbing scenes emerging in Australia, and increasingly, in our own countries.


Tensions have boiled over at an anti-lockdown rally at Parliament House in Melbourne. Dozens arrested. Capsicum spray used. Protesters chanted “human rights matter” and “freedom” before police moved in to remove them one by one. pic.twitter.com/CZEZkc5lt6

— Jack Paynter (@jackpayn) November 3, 2020


A Kind of Trance

What would it be like then, to live through the emergence of authoritarianism? I think that it would be exactly like the last nine months. The drift into authoritarianism is a kind of trance whereby things which would once have appeared appalling and impossible slowly insinuate themselves into our lives and societies. We now find them acceptable because we have been brought to the acceptance of a new reality. We have been made so hyper-conscious of one harmful thing (Covid-19) that all other harms begin to recede in significance, and all things become justifiable to a monomaniacal individual or society. The characteristic moment of authoritarian creep is that where the unthinkable becomes the everyday.

There have been so many instances of the unthinkable in the last nine months – moments that feel like stark warnings, like episodes from a historical slide down the path of authoritarianism – that a whole other essay might be taken up with them.

For example, in Australia in April the police interrupted a funeral as the coffin was being carried out to do a head count; in September they handcuffed a pregnant woman and took her from her home because of a Facebook post.

In the UK on the 26th of September, German doctor Heiko Schöning (a member of the German Corona Extra-Parliamentary Inquiry Committee) spoke to citizen journalist Anna Brees before he was due to address the Trafalgar Square Freedom Rally. Schöning told Brees that Germany was the epicentre of the anti-lockdown movement because of its historical awareness of authoritarianism. A couple of hours later, Schöning was surrounded by police, handcuffed and bundled into a van, and then detained for 22 hours for no other discernible reason than intimidation.

More recently at a protest in Berlin, human rights lawyer Markus Haintz and his girlfriend were brutally set-upon and arrested by police, again for no immediately discernible reason.

It is difficult to say which is more unsettling: that these things are happening in our societies, or that virtually nobody is talking about it. That, however, is probably how the authoritarian society always takes root: the conviction that it couldn’t be happening is so strong that people refuse to acknowledge the explicit evidence unfolding before their eyes that it is.

In our familiar conception of the deeply flawed society, we can easily demarcate ourselves from the villains, and many others will applaud us for criticizing them. The emergent authoritarian society, however, requires that we are all complicit; and eventually, mutual silence and complicity leads to a point of no return.

Again, however one feels about the proportionality of the Covid response, we must begin to take seriously the perilous path our societies have gone down.

I can’t shake the conviction that 2020 has been a kind of vast Milgram experiment, and of the European countries, Sweden alone has emerged with its democracy and humanity fully intact. The rest of us have unfettered the powers of the State to engage what has been arguably an assault on everything that is precious and meaningful in life: intimate contact, freedom, work, risk, childhood, youth and the future.

We are sleep-walking into what will be the greatest economic depression most of us will ever experience in our lifetimes; and doing so while while granting unchecked powers to our governments that likely would have horrified us only a few short months ago. What degrees of the unthinkable will have become part of our everyday existence in nine months time, if we continue along this course?




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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:34 pm

https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/11/ ... vid-tests/

How accurate are the covid tests?

...

The review included 25 studies of antibody tests, but only ten of these (with a total of 757 patients) provided enough data to allow sensitivity to be calculated. The sensitivity of the antibody tests varied from 18% to 96%. 12 studies provided enough information for specificity to be determined, and in these it varied from 89% to 96% .

Ok, it might be hard to understand what these numbers mean in practical terms, so we’re going to play around with them a bit in order to clarify this, and I’m going to focus on the PCR test in this final discussion, since that is what’s generating much of the hysteria around covid. As mentioned, the sensitivity of the PCR test seems to be around 88% . A good value for the specificity is harder to determine, but it’s somewhere between 88% and 100%, so if we assume a specificity of 94% (halfway between the two values) we’re probably not far off.

Let’s say the disease is spreading rampantly through the population, and one in ten people are infected at the same time. If we test 1,000 people at random, that will mean 100 of those people actually have covid, while 900 don’t. Of the 100 who have covid, the test will successfully pick up 88. Of the 900 who don’t have covid, the test will correctly tell 846 that they don’t have it, but it will also tell 54 healthy people that they do have covid. So, in total 142 people out of 1,000 are told that they have covid. Of those 142 people, 62% actually have the disease, and 38% don’t.

That’s not great. Four in ten people getting a positive test result don’t actually have covid, even in a situation where the disease is so common that 10% of people being tested really do have the disease.

Unfortunately, it gets worse. let’s assume the disease is starting to wane, and now only one in a hundred people being tested actually has covid. If we test 1,000 people, that will mean ten will really have covid, while 990 won’t. Of the ten who have covid, nine will be correctly told that they have it. Of the 990 who don’t have it, 931 will be correctly told that they don’t have it, while 59 will be incorrectly told that they do have the disease. So, in total, 68 people will be told that they have covid. But only 9 out of 68 will actually have the disease. To put it another way, in a situation where only 1% of the population being tested has the disease, 87% of positive results will be false positives.

There is another thing about this that I think is worth paying attention to. When one in ten people being tested has the disease, you get 142 positive results per 1000 people tested. But when one in a hundred has the disease, you get 68 positive results. So, even though the actual prevalence of the disease has decreased by a factor of ten, the prevalence of PCR positive results has only decreased by half. So if you’re only looking at PCR results, and consider that to be an accurate reflection of how prevalent the disease is in the population, then you will be fooled, because the disease will seem to be much more prevalent than it is.

Let’s do one final thought experiment to illustrate this. Say the disease is now very rare, and only one in a thousand tested people actually has covid. If you test 1,000 people, you will get back 61 positive results. Of those, one will be a true positive, and 60 will be false positives. So, even though the prevalence of true disease has again decreased by a factor of ten, the number of positive results has only decreased slightly, from 68 to 61 (of which 60 are false positives!). So by looking just at positive PCR tests, you can easily be convinced that the disease is continuing to be roughly as prevalent in the population, even as it goes from being present in one in a hundred people to only being present in one in a thousand. The rarer the disease becomes in reality, the less likely you are to notice any difference in the number of tests returning positive results.

I want to restate this again, in a slightly different way, to make sure the message sinks in. As the disease drops enormously, by a factor of 100, from affecting one in ten to one in a thousand tested people, there is little more than a halving in PCR positive results, from 142 to 61. So a huge reduction in real infections only causes a small reduction in PCR confirmed “cases”. In fact, the disease could vanish from the face of the Earth, and you would still be getting 60 positive results for every 1,000 tests carried out!

The same trend is seen even if the PCR test were to have a much better specificity than we are estimating here, of say 99% . Here’s a quick illustration, since I don’t want to tire you with too many more numbers. If one in ten has the disease and you test 1,000 people, you will get back 97 positive results, of which 88 will be true positives and 9 will be false positives. If one in 100 has the disease, you will get back 19 positive results, of which 9 will be true positives and ten will be false positives. If one in 1,000 has the disease, you will get back 12 positive results, of which 11 will be false positives.

So, even if the test has a very high specificity of 99%, when the virus stops being present at pandemic levels in the population and starts to decrease to more endemic levels, you quickly get to a point where most positive results are false positives, and where the disease seems to be much more prevalent than it really is.

As you can see, the less prevalent the disease is in reality, the more likely the test is to generate a false positive result, and the less useful the test is as a method for figuring out who actually has covid. And the less prevalent the disease is, the more prevalent it will seem to be in relation to reality. If decisions about covid continue to be made largely based on what PCR tests show, we might never be able to call off the pandemic!

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why PCR positive cases are a very poor indicator of how prevalent covid is in the population, and why we should instead be basing decisions on the rates of hospitalization, ICU admission, and death. If we just look at the PCR tests, we will continue to believe that the disease is widespread in the population indefinitely, even as it becomes less and less common in reality. And that is assuming the rate of testing doesn’t increase. If we combine this built-in problem with accuracy, with a massive increase in testing (as has happened in most countries over the course of the pandemic), then we can create the impression of a disease that is continuing to spread wildly through a population, even when it isn’t.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby PufPuf93 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:37 pm

stickdog99 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:34 pm wrote:https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/11/06/how-accurate-are-the-covid-tests/

How accurate are the covid tests?

...





Unfortunately, it gets worse. let’s assume the disease is starting to wane, and now only one in a hundred people being tested actually has covid.


And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why PCR positive cases are a very poor indicator of how prevalent covid is in the population, and why we should instead be basing decisions on the rates of hospitalization, ICU admission, and death. If we just look at the PCR tests, we will continue to believe that the disease is widespread in the population indefinitely, even as it becomes less and less common in reality. And that is assuming the rate of testing doesn’t increase. If we combine this built-in problem with accuracy, with a massive increase in testing (as has happened in most countries over the course of the pandemic), then we can create the impression of a disease that is continuing to spread wildly through a population, even when it isn’t.


As of today, does not look like any of us should be worried about the emminent waning of cv19. As such, other arguments are moot for now and the scientists and doctors are still early on a learning curve.

What we should be worried about is the spread of cv19 infection given the context of no current vaccine and scant idea about the efficacy of any vaccine or some form of herd immunity and also about the long term impact of an infection from mild or no symptom infections. Someone infected with cv19 can spread the virus before showing symptoms and those infected that never show symtptoms can still spread the virus.

This article is stupid and harms people and spreads confusion.

Rushworth is an apologist for the failed Swedish approach to cv19. Look at the crap on his website and FB.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:57 am

LO at your "shoot the messager" bs. The entire supposed recent spike in COVID-19 could easily be entirely an artifact of the far greater number of false positives created by the recent government enforced roll out of far less specific rapid antigen tests.

https://www.propublica.org/article/rapi ... s-to-admit

Rapid Testing Is Less Accurate Than the Government Wants to Admit

Rapid antigen testing is a mess. The federal government pushed it out without a plan, and then spent weeks denying problems with false positives.

by Lisa Song Nov. 16, 5 a.m. EST

COVID-19 antigen testing in Eau Claire, Wisconsin, on Nov. 2. (David Joles/Star Tribune via Getty Images)

The promise of antigen tests emerged like a miracle this summer. With repeated use, the theory went, these rapid and cheap coronavirus tests would identify highly infectious people while giving healthy Americans a green light to return to offices, schools and restaurants. The idea of on-the-spot tests with near-instant results was an appealing alternative to the slow, lab-based testing that couldn’t meet public demand.

By September, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services had purchased more than 150 million tests for nursing homes and schools, spending more than $760 million. But it soon became clear that antigen testing — named for the viral proteins, or antigens, that the test detects — posed a new set of problems. Unlike lab-based, molecular PCR tests, which detect snippets of the virus’s genetic material, antigen tests are less sensitive because they can only detect samples with a higher viral load. The tests were prone to more false negatives and false positives. As problems emerged, officials were slow to acknowledge the evidence.

With the benefit of hindsight, experts said the Trump administration should have released antigen tests primarily to communities with outbreaks instead of expecting them to work just as well in large groups of asymptomatic people. Understanding they can produce false results, the government could have ensured that clinics had enough for repeat testing to reduce false negatives and access to more precise PCR tests to weed out false positives. Government agencies, which were aware of the tests’ limitations, could have built up trust by being more transparent about them and how to interpret results, scientists said.

When health care workers in Nevada and Vermont reported false positives, HHS defended the tests and threatened Nevada with unspecified sanctions until state officials agreed to continue using them in nursing homes. It took several more weeks for the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to issue an alert on Nov. 3 that confirmed what Nevada had experienced: Antigen tests were prone to giving false positives, the FDA warned.

“Part of the problem is this administration has continuously played catch-up,” said Dr. Abraar Karan, a physician at Harvard Medical School. It was criticized for not ensuring enough PCR tests at the beginning, and when antigen tests became available, it shoved them at the states without a coordinated plan, he said.

If you tested the same group of people once a week without fail, with adequate double-checking, then a positive test could be the canary in the coal mine, said Dr. Mark Levine, commissioner of Vermont’s Health Department. “Unfortunately the government didn’t really advertise it that way or prescribe it” with much clarity, so some people lost faith. HHS and the FDA did not respond to requests for comment.

The scientific community remains divided on the potential of antigen tests.

Epidemic control is the main argument for antigen testing. A string of studies show that antigen tests reliably detect high viral loads. Because people are most infectious when they have high viral loads, the tests will flag those most likely to infect others. Modeling also shows how frequent, repeated antigen testing may be better at preventing outbreaks than highly sensitive PCR tests, if those tests are used infrequently and require long wait times for results. So far, there are no large scale, peer-reviewed studies showing how the antigen approach has curbed outbreaks on the ground.

"People need to realize that without rapid testing, we’re living in a world where many people are unknowingly becoming superspreaders", Karan said. "About 40% of infections are spread by asymptomatic people with high viral loads, so antigen tests, however imperfect, shouldn’t be dismissed," he said.

Even those who are more skeptical said they can be helpful with a targeted approach directed at lower-risk situations like schools, or outbreaks in rural communities where PCR is impractical, rather than nursing homes where a single mistake could set off a chain of deaths.

It is “completely irresponsible” to take a less-accurate test and say it applies to all situations, said Melissa Miller, director of the clinical microbiology lab at the University of North Carolina.

There’s no precedent for the government to bet this much on a product before it’s been thoroughly vetted, said Matthew Pettengill, scientific director of clinical microbiology at Thomas Jefferson University. “They put the cart before the horse, and we still can’t see the horse.”

The Government Quickly Embraced an Unproven Test

During a public health crisis, the FDA can issue emergency use authorizations to make tests available that might otherwise have been subjected to many months of scrutiny before being approved. The three most popular antigen tests in the U.S., from Abbott Laboratories, Quidel and Becton, Dickinson, commonly known as BD, had to submit far less proof of success than is usually required.

FDA gave the first authorization to Quidel on May 8 based on data from 209 positive and negative samples. BD got its permit July 2 with a total of 226 samples and Abbott in late August with 102. Outside of a pandemic, the agency might otherwise have required hundreds more samples; in 2018, BD’s antigen test for the flu provided data on 736 samples.

There’s no excuse for the small pool of data, particularly for Abbott, Pettengill said. At the start of the pandemic, the FDA authorized PCR tests based on as few as 60 samples because it was difficult to find confirmed cases. By the time Abbott got its authorization in August, it was “a completely different ballgame.” Abbott’s validation document states the company collected swabs from patients at seven sites. Given the case counts over the summer, it should have only taken a few days to collect many hundreds of samples, Pettengill said.

Abbott didn’t respond to requests for comment. Quidel pointed ProPublica to an article in The New England Journal of Medicine that explained how regular antigen testing can contain the pandemic by identifying those who are most infectious.

“We have full confidence in the performance” of our test, Kristen Cardillo, BD’s vice president of global communication, said in an email. BD “completed one of the most geographically broad” clinical trials for any antigen test on the market, she added, by “collecting and analyzing 226 samples from 21 different clinical trial sites across 11 states.”

The day after the Abbott test was authorized, HHS placed a huge bet on it, buying 150 million tests.

The Enraging Deja Vu of a Third Coronavirus Wave

Health care workers don’t need patronizing praise. They need resources, federal support, and for us to stay healthy and out of their hospitals. In many cases, none of that is happening.

Then, it gave institutions like nursing homes advice on how to use them off-label, in a way in which they were untested and unproven.

The three tests are authorized for the most straightforward cases: people with COVID-19 symptoms in the first week of symptoms. That’s how they were validated. They produced virtually no false positives that way and were 84% to 97% as sensitive as lab tests, meaning they caught that range of the samples deemed positive by PCR.

Yet HHS allowed their use for large-scale asymptomatic screening without fully exploring the consequences, Pettengill said.

A recent study, not yet peer reviewed, found the Quidel test detected over 80% of cases when used on symptomatic people and those with known exposures to the virus, but only 32% among people without symptoms, The New York Times reported.

The HHS encourages nursing homes that can’t get access to PCR tests to use antigen tests, even on asymptomatic people. The agency suggested repeat testing to reduce false negatives but didn’t mention false positives.

An October survey found that nearly a third of nursing homes had left the federally provided antigen tests untouched, The Wall Street Journal reported. Staff cited time-consuming paperwork for federal reporting requirements and skepticism about their accuracy.

“I think a lot of the trust was lost, unfortunately,” Karan said.

“Be Prepared for Some ‘Pressure’”

As antigen tests began to give false positive results in nursing homes, state public health officials in Vermont and Nevada pushed back. But HHS officials overruled their concerns and pressured them to keep using the tests.

In July, an urgent care clinic in Manchester, Vermont, discovered that, of 64 patients (mostly asymptomatic) who the Quidel test said were positive, only four, all symptomatic, got a positive PCR result. As reported by the Vermont alt-weekly Seven Days, Quidel said the fault lay with the PCR tests. The FDA also pointed a finger at the PCR “without any foundation of evidence,” Levine, the state health commissioner, told ProPublica.

There was a potential problem related to the PCR machine’s software, but Vermont’s state lab retested the samples after upgrading the system and found no change in results, Levine said. State officials also conducted pop-up testing in the Manchester region and found just a handful of positives out of 1,600 tests, he said, proving that there was no outbreak in the community.

Levine said his health agency ended up labeling the 60 samples as “discordant” instead of “false positives” and left them out of the official case count. “We didn’t want hard feelings,” he said. “I do think this administration wanted to show it was doing something ... and this [antigen test] is one way to demonstrate that.”

The federal government defended Quidel again in early October. The Times reported that Nevada’s Health Department ordered nursing homes to stop using all antigen tests after reviewing results from 3,725 tests. Nursing homes had double-checked 39 samples the BD and Quidel tests flagged as positive, but 23 of them tested negative via PCR. Nevada’s letter noted that it only learned about the problem because the state chose to go above and beyond federal guidelines: The FDA had said there was no need to double-check positive results. State officials told nursing homes to continue using PCR to fulfill testing requirements.

Cardillo, the BD spokesperson, said a “very small number” of the 11,250 nursing homes using BD tests reported higher than expected false positives, and “we are conducting thorough investigations into those cases.”

When an official from the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services asked why the state adopted a ban, a Nevada health facilities inspector said false positives could put nursing home residents at risk, according to emails obtained by ProPublica via a public records request.

If someone tests positive on an antigen test, the nursing home may sequester the patient with other residents who are truly infected, the Nevada official, Bradley Waples, wrote. If that person later has a negative PCR test, then the faulty diagnosis will have placed them “in danger of contracting the virus by introducing them to a room full of actual positive residents.”


His email didn’t explain whether anyone had been infected that way. A spokesperson from the Nevada Health Department declined to comment.

In one nursing home, the antigen tests found seven positives out of 35 samples, yet all seven tested negative by PCR, Waples wrote. Two other states had reported similar false positive problems, he added.

“Thanks Brad,” the CMS official replied. “It’ll be interesting to see what HHS does with this information. Be prepared for some ‘pressure.’”

That pressure arrived two days later in a letter from HHS, where Assistant Secretary Brett Giroir ordered Nevada to rescind the ban. You “must cease immediately or appropriate action will be taken against those involved,” he wrote. Nevada complied.

Giroir’s letter cited some of the key arguments for antigen tests, including their ability to detect those who are most infectious. Yet the agency’s reasoning glosses over many unknowns. Some people can become acutely ill without ever showing high viral loads, or only doing so briefly, said Miller, the North Carolina scientist. Those with lower viral loads may still be able to infect others, and the data is murkier for asymptomatic people, she added.

“I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but we’re not fully understanding how these tests perform in certain populations, and yet they’re being used,” Miller said.

“It’s a test, yes, but there are people on the other side of that test,” she added. If you have a family member in a nursing home that’s getting false positives, it takes time to confirm results by PCR, Miller said. “These are days in which the residents and their families have an incredibly high level of anxiety and worry about their loved ones.”

America Needs a National Antigen Testing Plan

The initial vision of giving every American at-home tests every day has been slow to materialize. Many of the available antigen tests require machines to read the results or someone who’s trained to administer the test. Some states aren’t even reporting their antigen results, so it’s unclear when they’re used or how they complement PCR.

“We need a federal plan for who gets tested, with what tests ... when, how often, and what data should be reported back, and what those data pieces mean,” said Dr. Rebecca Lee Smith, an epidemiology professor at the University of Illinois.

So much remains unknown about the best way to use antigen tests, Smith added. If you have a million tests, is it better to test a million people once, or test half a million people who are at high risk twice, or test essential workers five or 10 times? “It’s how you use the tests, not just how many tests you have.”

The U.S. has never had a national testing strategy, said Dr. Ranu Dhillon, an expert on rapid testing and global health equity at Boston’s Brigham and Women’s Hospital. The administration’s haphazard approach to antigen tests is an extension of that larger failure, he said.

While there have not been well-publicized examples of false negatives that have led to outbreaks, one risk that’s been overlooked until recently is the probability of false positives in low-prevalence communities — places where few people have the virus, Miller said.

Even if a test is very “specific” (providing few false positives), it can flag more false positives than true positives. This happens for both PCR and antigen tests, but if antigen testing scales up to tens or hundreds of millions of tests a month, communities and institutions could get overwhelmed, Miller said.

One paper from August found that if a quarter of American school kids were tested three times a week with an antigen test that’s 98% specific, it would produce 800,000 false positives a week that need to be double checked by PCR tests. (For reference, the U.S. is processing an average of 1.4 million tests per day, nearly all of them PCR).

Miller said she’s received confused phone calls from doctors asking for advice. She helped a state task force create a flowchart that explains how to interpret antigen results and when to do repeat testing. “But why are 50 states doing this,” instead of a single clear message from the administration? Miller asked.

Karan, the Harvard physician, said federal officials need to set expectations. An employer who can’t afford PCR might welcome antigen testing, because catching 80% of infected workers would be better than catching none at all. Meanwhile, anyone who gets a single negative result shouldn’t use it as an excuse to go to a bar, he said, and they should understand they might test positive a couple days later. This is particularly crucial for the many who plan to rely on antigen tests results to clear them for Thanksgiving gatherings.

Smith said any testing plan must be paired with a strong program of contact tracing, isolation and quarantine. The reality in this country is that “just telling someone they’re positive has not been enough. There has to be a cultural shift.”

As Reuters reported, Slovakia drove down its infection rate through a mass antigen testing program that imposed strict quarantine rules. The country tested 65% of its population in one weekend, then repeated the tests in hot spots a week later. Anyone who refused testing had to stay home, while those who tested negative got certificates that let them participate in public life.

That approach wouldn’t be feasible in the U.S., Smith said. “We need to instead think about empowering and supporting people to abide by isolation and quarantine.”
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:06 am

https://www.ascp.org/content/news-archi ... r-covid-19

...

Challenge #1: False Negatives

When the antigen test is negative on a symptomatic patient (i.e. a test result/clinical mismatch), then the patient should be retested with an RT-PCR assay. Occasional false-negative test results are expected to occur due to the limited sensitivity of antigen tests compared with RT-PCR.

This recommendation is consistent with CDC guidance which has stated: “…it may be necessary to confirm a rapid antigen test result with a nucleic acid test, especially if the result of the antigen test is inconsistent with the clinical context (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... rview.html).” Otherwise stated: If there is a mismatch between the clinical findings and the test result, then an RT-PCR should be performed.

Challenge #2: False Positives

As FDA staff noted during an October 7 FDA Town Hall “it is important to consider the positive predictive value when assessing how to react to a positive result.” Whenever a test is used in a low prevalence setting then the likelihood of false positives increases (See example, below). This includes using the test for screening asymptomatic patients. If an asymptomatic patient tests positive with and antigen detection test, there is a significant probability that the test is a false positive, so the presence of SARS-CoV-2 should be confirmed with an RT-PCR test. There are numerous examples of false positive SARS-CoV-2 antigen tests in the lay press.

This recommendation, again, is consistent with CDC guidance which has stated: “…it may be necessary to confirm a rapid antigen test result with a nucleic acid test, especially if the result of the antigen test is inconsistent with the clinical context (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... rview.html).” Otherwise stated: If there is a clinical/test result mismatch, then an RT-PCR should be performed

There is a significant patient safety issue if these tests are used to cohort patients prior to RT-PCR confirmation, since uninfected patients with false-positives results would be placed in close proximity with patient who are infected, and thereby may become infected themselves. If antigen tests are used to screen asymptomatic patients, then positive results should be considered presumptive positives, until confirmed by an RT-PCR test. These patients could be kept in isolation, but should not be cohorted with other patients with COVID-19, until infection is confirmed.

There is also a danger of artificially inflated infection rates if positive results from asymptomatic patients are reported with RT-PCR confirmation.


Example:

This table is an excerpt from the Clinical and Laboratory Standards Institute report GP49, Developing and Managing a Medical Laboratory (Test) Utilization Management Program. It demonstrates how the positive predictive value (i.e. the likelihood that a positive test result represents actual disease in the patient) of a very good test (i.e. 95% sensitivity/95% specificity) diminishes from 95% when there is a prevalence of 50% to 16% when the prevalence is 1%. Otherwise stated: At a prevalence of 1%, only 16 out of 100 positive results are correct, the remainder (84 out of 100) are wrong (i.e. false positives)!

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Monk » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:16 pm

The ranks change when you look at deaths per capita.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Belligerent Savant » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:40 am

.


stickdog99 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:57 am wrote: The entire supposed recent spike in COVID-19 could easily be entirely an artifact of the far greater number of false positives created by the recent government enforced roll out of far less specific rapid antigen tests.

https://www.propublica.org/article/rapi ... s-to-admit

Rapid Testing Is Less Accurate Than the Government Wants to Admit

Rapid antigen testing is a mess. The federal government pushed it out without a plan, and then spent weeks denying problems with false positives.


All important points worth underscoring, above.


Also: long-awaited study revealed its findings today. Unfortunately MADNESS has gone on for months already, and likely will continue regardless of these findings.

The findings will not outright indicate that masks are non-functional, of course -- disclaimers must be included -- but it's clear they should not be mandated outside of very specific circumstances, perhaps (when indoors in close proximity to groups of others, with minimal ventilation and/or low ceilings for extended periods, for example).

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... nd/8371391

https://www.berlingske.dk/samfund/liveb ... oronavirus


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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:22 pm

The crazy thing is that nobody even seems to care about carefully quantifying the false positive rate of our various COVID tests, even though we are making life and death decisions such as quarantining healthy nursing home residents with COVID infected nursing homes patients based on the results of tests with unknown specificity.

In San Francisco, for example, there has been a recent "spike" of "confirmed" COVID-19 cases.You can read about all the hysteria surrounding this in every national and local media news source.

Since 10/27, there have 1,572 new "confirmed" COVID-19 cases. Yet over this three week period, there have been just two COVID-19 associated fatalities. Furthermore, since 10/27, the number of patients hospitalized for COVID-19 has fluctuated between 33 and 39 while the number of COVID ICU patients has fluctuated between 6 and 11.

During this time period, the 7 day rolling average of tests per day has increased from 5,369 tests per day to 6,167 tests per day, while the percent of positive tests has increased from 1.15% to 1.97%.

As a thought experiment, let us assume that the 1 in 400 tested SF residents actually has COVID-19. Under this entirely reasonable assumption, a false positive rate increase of the actual COVID-19 tests administered from just 0.75% to just 1.5% during this period (due to the vagaries of the availability of specific tests) could account for the entire supposed recent increase in cases. And if just 1 in 400 residents actually has COVID-19, then even tiny false positive rates ensure that false positives overwhelm true positives.

For example, if a test's specificity is 95% and just 1 in 400 people tested actually have COVID-19, then you get 20 false positives for every true positive. If a test's specificity is 98% and just 1 in 400 people tested actually have COVID-19, then you get 8 false positives for every true positive. If a test's specificity is 99% and just 1 in 400 people tested actually have COVID-19, then you get 4 false positives for every true positive. Even if a test's specificity is 99.5%, if just 1 in 400 people tested actually have COVID-19, then you get 2 false positives for every true positive, and still the chances that any individual who tests positive for COVID-19 actually has COVID-19 is just 33%.

Note that the reported specificity of just the best available tests cited in this article ranged from 97.4% to 99.8%. And all of these tests have been approved only on an emergency basis. There is currently no true gold standard by which to measure the sensitivity or specificity of any of these tests.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:54 am

Meanwhile, COVID-19 has somehow continued to kill off the entire flu season:

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Last week, 19.496 patients were tested for influenza in public labs in the USA, and just 6 of these samples came back positive for influenza. This is compared to more than 700 positive results during this same week last flu season.
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