Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby exojuridik » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:53 am

Stefano - I wrote this before your post which seems to represent a different strain of libertarianism than the "think and grow rich" gimmicktry that the American version pushes. You appear to acknowledge the need for a system of global governance and representational democracy that might tread on values that americans take as god-given. Indeed, its closer to a version of working communism than the nationalist, greed is good credo favored by the Cult of Texas. Not that endorse your prescriptions but my response is directed to the homegrown american Nozick/Paul version which has been corrupted by a a particularly american emphasis on redemptive religiousity and rationalizations for dispensing with any social contract that involves you sacrificing shit for your fellow brothers and sisters.

No, this is being skeptical about a project that is both theoretically inconsistent and has the practical effect of removing the one tool that people have in countering the political hegemony of the plutocrats, namely an empowered government properly representing the needs and interests of its constituents. Everything else is just a blind, stupid game which usurps authority in its own name and then proceeds to promulgate self-inscribing rules which establishes a set of winners and losers irrespective of the human cost – something these days we call free-market capitalism.

Currently, the corporate masters of this game have coopted institutions like governments, NGOs and International organizations to by virtue of their associational and financial capital. But these are merely tools – if we manage to change the rules the rich will maintain their position so long as the system is based on capitalist dynamics. Today, wealth and power are fungible because of the dominance of a normative regime that accords political privilege to money – libertarians don’t do anything to change this. So long as everything can be reduced to its immediate market value, we are all commodities to be bought and sold to the benefit of those who control the game. Again, libertarianism doesn’t address the status of our slave-masters within a capitalist system.

Honestly, just in terms of theory, I feel that that the religious conservatives have a better grasp of the situation than the libertarians. The jesus-cons at least have a mechanism to make their fanciful political economic order work – God. Their deus ex machina explanations tell me that at least they understand the reality-based shortcomings of their system. Conversely, the libertarians are trying to sell me a faith-based scheme without even the courtesy of a divinely ordained eschatology. It’s like the Walmart or Multilevel Marketing version of the free-market con .
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby stefano » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:49 pm

American Dream wrote:Maybe I'm not understanding: How is giving market forces more or less free reign going to lead to a world where everyone has decent food, shelter, energy, medical care, education, work, and everything else?
A world where everyone has decent everything you mean? Free ponies for everyone? It isn't. It will limit the power of corporations, though, which is what we were talking about.

exojuridik wrote:its closer to a version of working communism than the nationalist, greed is good credo favored by the Cult of Texas
Well, quite. Proudhon, though, not Lenin. That's exactly what I like about the US Libertarians (the ones with consistent and rational policy recommendations, I mean, not the idiots at lewrockwell.com). Their policies, if implemented, can make room for a true mutualist economy at the local level.

exojuridik wrote:Today, wealth and power are fungible because of the dominance of a normative regime that accords political privilege to money – libertarians don’t do anything to change this.
I'm not sure about that. For starters, there's the potential political power of a freed-up labour movement, which libertarianism makes room for. Most of the victories in social struggles have been won by labour movements. Also, libertarians are democratic and tend to privilege local politics, giving more influence to people in elections.

exojuridik wrote:So long as everything can be reduced to its immediate market value, we are all commodities to be bought and sold to the benefit of those who control the game. Again, libertarianism doesn’t address the status of our slave-masters within a capitalist system.
No, but it doesn't have to. My conviction is that the most fruitful struggle is to build enriching and mutually supportive systems at the local level (really local, like neighbourhoods and towns), and that a libertarian government, by reducing the weight of taxes and extorted surplus-value on citizens, would be most conducive to that happening.

In addition to the most important reason for voting Libertarian, which is that no-one ever disappears, you'll never hear the standard-issues kicking down your door.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby American Dream » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:00 pm

Stefano wrote:
American Dream wrote:
Maybe I'm not understanding: How is giving market forces more or less free reign going to lead to a world where everyone has decent food, shelter, energy, medical care, education, work, and everything else?

A world where everyone has decent everything you mean? Free ponies for everyone? It isn't. It will limit the power of corporations, though, which is what we were talking abou


No- not free ponies for everyone. How about a world where the air and water aren't massively poisoned? Where animals aren't imprisoned and killed in little mini-Aushwitzes? Where millions don't die of preventible diseases? Where there is enough food for children and other human beings?

I fail to see how sweeping privatization and economic deregulation will make this all possible...

(Stefano, I know you're not personally arguing for a Chicago-style deregulation and neither is Ron Paul but please explain a bit more your thoughts on how market forces might fulfill these sorts of needs, or not)
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Sweejak » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:46 pm

Except that your statement is full of shit.


No, it's not.
I said that I knew people who would not speak up because of their jobs and I know people who are repressed by their own unions.

Stop me if I'm wrong, but if Paul is in line with Libertarian thinking, then he would remove any limits on campaign spending. No? (Yes, I'm aware the SC just did that. Can anyone point me to Paul's statement criticizing the decision?)


Go read some of Greenwald's analysis, it's a little less knee jerk.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Nordic » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:05 pm

Joe Hillshoist wrote:
Joe Hillshoist wrote:
Either everyone gets involved across the whole population or else the whole thing goes to shit.
.


Well here in the U.S. it's already gone to shit. It went to shit a long time ago.

We are now living in a post-shit world.

And the big question is how to we undo this having-gone-to-shit thing?

How do you create shinola from shit?

You can't do it with lipstick. You can't polish a turd.

Yet a turd is what we are now. The United States of Turdistan.

I think the only thing that will keep this country from stinking up the entire world is a big flush of fresh water.

Yes, it almost doesn't matter who the person is who we annoint is the leader of this freshness, the point is that the people have to do the flushing.

A significant percentage of the population THOUGHT they were doing this by working for, promoting, and voting for Obama.

They were tricked.

Now they're in a "now what?" situation, if they're not still in complete denial (which a lot of them are, sadly. It's difficult to dislike Obama, it's hard to turn that corner and realize he is worthy of the same hatred we all had/have for Bush and Cheney).
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Sweejak » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:26 pm

23 wrote:While I always liked JB, I never thought that he was infallible. This reply affirms that for me.

Libertarianism is the antithesis of coercive, centralized authoritarianism. And it is does not possess a "political/policy vacuum". A decentralized, nonintrusive, local government is not a vacuum. It is a counterpoint to an authoritarian, centralized one.

As Dave reminds JB in his original letter, the Tea Party started out with libertarian roots but was later co-opted by Christian nationalists.

The Christian nationalists are certainly fully capable of embracing authoritarian/fascist rule (they worship an authoritarian god, after all), but not the libertarians.

I'd give JB a lot more credit for precise thought construction if he didn't do what so many are too wiling to do: lump the two groups in one bag indiscriminately.


I'm with you there and I love Joe, I like Joe Cannon too, I like, Justin as well. And I have disagreements from time to time with each of them but think that their views are important for any serious debate.

The Tea Parties were definitely hijacked. It can be traced definitively.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Sweejak » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:43 pm

My concern is not over actually libertarian policies as they are by definition non-existent. What worries me is how the teabagger/libertarian movement with its populist appeal to nationalism and vague concepts like liberty, is actually setting up facism's goal making shot. In the political/policy vacuum of a libertarian world, it doesn't take much to rally the disaffected masses into embracing an authoritarian government that actually does work. However, instead of fostering a critical awareness of each person's interdependent political economic self-interest, this government will rally the citizens with a message of strength through unity flying under a paternalistic banner of national freedom/self-determination.

IOW- Libertarianism + Government = Authoritarian cult of Personality politics. And if the past 6,000 years of recorded history are any evidence, government is an irreducible constant in the whole equation of human civilization. I would argue that institutionalized government exists in some form even among preliterate hunter/gatherer tribes. Simply blaming all society's problems on it and wishing it is exactly the kind of magick thinking from which the dark spirits animating the Far Right feed.


Yeah, you know I'm a Bageant fan, and I see what your saying. It worries me too.

Bageant: About the Tea Party movement. Yeah, you're right. It is not what it started out to be. Personally, I believe it has been co-opted by ultra conservative GOP think tanks operating in the background. I've seen it happen before and I believe I am seeing it happen now. With no proof, mind you.


Actually Paul himself has said that the Tea Party movement was hijacked an most folks can see it just as clearly.

There are a lot of different types of libertarianism, from Chomsky's socialist libertarianism to Christian libertarianism. I'm not a political scientist and I don't want to be one, but it seems to me that if we are going to do a ideological debate we're going to have to get a lot more specific. Or, we can just call each other "full of shit" instead. Personally I'm more curious about what it is that makes people want to fight WWII's ideological battles over and over and over again.

What worries you on the Right worries me on the Left too. Their authoritarian fantasies of "good government" don't do much for me.

My family has been destroyed by both Fascists and Communists and crushed by Socialism. It's in our history. We immigrated to the US for American ideals of liberty etc, however vaguely defined and imperfectly implemented. Maybe it's time to get crushed by "capitalism". Oh well, what else you got.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Sweejak » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:41 pm

This is somewhat OT but I'll post it anyway since I have to catch up on a lot of posts which as usual I didn't receive notification for so I'm pages behind and skimming which isn't good for comprehension.. I've got to go do some work too.

Anyway, The film The Cradle Will Rock is brilliant in a number of ways, from the ominous syphilis cell painting fragment left over from the destruction of Diego Rivera's Rockefeller mural to the funeral procession of Bill Murray's puppet down the streets of today's Times Square, and what a great cast for the whole film. But to me the ultimate irony was the during the wonderful staging of the play in a alternate theater because here they were, singing about the glories of unity and unions etc while at the same time doing it in a unapproved theater and doing the performance in defiance of union rules, risking banishment from the union.

Cradle Will Rock
http://tinyurl.com/yfa3tpe

Sound snip:
http://web.me.com/kaaawa/Temp./Sound_Sn ... eller.html

BTW, I'm not anti- union, not especially, I think people have and should use the right to organize in just about any way they see fit especially when it comes to dealing with organized industry.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:46 pm

23 wrote:This bullshit frustrates me endlessly. Ron Paul is against war and against subsidies. A USA that doesn't invade and whose market is fairly accessible for exports (especially food) would change the world, I'm not exaggerating, to the benefit of the worst off. But people like you don't want to understand this, because you actually believe that American meddling is or can be well-intentioned, if the imperialists that you are personally fond of are elected. 'The liberal defence of murder', Richard Seymour calls it."


Please point us to where anyone on this thread:

a) indicates that they "believe that American meddling is or can be well-intentioned, if the imperialists that you are fond of are elected";

b) supports a "liberal defence of murder"; or

c) is less than unconditional about the notion that the USA should not invade (anywhere) and should make its market accessible to food imports (from the 3rd World, presumably).

Or else, please throw your strawmen back on the hay pile. Thanks.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby sunny » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:54 pm

Sweejak wrote:This is somewhat OT but I'll post it anyway since I have to catch up on a lot of posts which as usual I didn't receive notification for so I'm pages behind and skimming which isn't good for comprehension.. I've got to go do some work too.

Anyway, The film The Cradle Will Rock is brilliant in a number of ways, from the ominous syphilis cell painting fragment left over from the destruction of Diego Rivera's Rockefeller mural to the funeral procession of Bill Murray's puppet down the streets of today's Times Square, and what a great cast for the whole film. But to me the ultimate irony was the during the wonderful staging of the play in a alternate theater because here they were, singing about the glories of unity and unions etc while at the same time doing it in a unapproved theater and doing the performance in defiance of union rules, risking banishment from the union.

Cradle Will Rock
http://tinyurl.com/yfa3tpe

Sound snip:
http://web.me.com/kaaawa/Temp./Sound_Sn ... eller.html

BTW, I'm not anti- union, not especially, I think people have and should use the right to organize in just about any way they see fit especially when it comes to dealing with organized industry.



The theatre troupe was not defying the union, they were defying the Federal Theatre Project who shut them down due to 'budget cuts', but it was actually due to accusations of communism.

Wonderful film btw. Highly entertaining and uplifting without being cheesy or sentimental.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby compared2what? » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:00 pm

stefano wrote:But someone who's prepared to put his own savings at risk to achieve a healthy economy is surely more ethical than someone who isn't?


Do you think those are ethical long-term investments, stefano? Or risky ones, for that matter?
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:03 pm

Stefano wrote:But hanging on to the corporatist death system for the sake of social security is sort of analogous to arguing that slavery isn't great, but at least slaves get housed and fed.


New frontiers in false dichotomy!

Also, not even remotely empirical.

In the US, the general pension plan for workers was implemented against the objections of the "corporatist death system" (who called it socialism and worse). Since then, the leading avatars of the "corporatist death system" have sought to destroy Social Security, just as they have rolled back pretty much every other social welfare program. If they had their way, the SS fund would have been swallowed up and lost on the market long ago. As it is, the masters of the financial ponzi scheme that has already bankrupted the world are still promoting a false crisis about how Social Security is a ponzi scheme, in the hope of diverting its funds to their own ponzi scheme.

And no, "truly" free markets would not solve world hunger. More libertarian religion. Every region in the world needs to put food autonomy ahead of producing commodities for global markets. If that means protection, so be it.

The libertarian ideology presents the inverse opposite of historical reality. All countries who developed economically and achieved industrialization did so by protectionist measures. No country ever industrialized by allowing completely "free markets" to foreign capital. "Free markets," even the undistorted ones that libertarians imagine are possible (on some planet other than this one), have always been the slogan of the big fish desiring to eat the little one.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby compared2what? » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:05 pm

Chacha Ochibhota is young, he’s 21 years old, he has a skin pigmentation covering his face, his eyes are bloodshot, he speaks quietly and moves slowly. His medical examination states that on the 1st of July, he claimed to ‘have used acidic water, contaminated by the mining project – sustaining burns on the face…’ Referring him to the Tarime District Hospital for further investigations.

“I started feeling the problems in May this year,” he said. “I have a farm near the Tigithe River. When it was hot and sweaty I would bath in the water and wash my face and body to cool down.

“It felt different, when I tasted the water, it didn’t taste normal, it was a salty taste, and it was the feeling of rubbing salt in wounds…

“I was referred to the district hospital, but because I had no money, I didn’t go.

“For me,” said Chacha, “I need only treatment, so I can do work. Now I can only lie in bed, or do soft work…”


ImageImage

(Those are representative dividends reaped by one among many non-investors near Barrick's Mara mine in Tanzania. Here's a link.)
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:06 pm

stefano wrote:But someone who's prepared to put his own savings at risk to achieve a healthy economy is surely more ethical than someone who isn't?


compared2what? wrote:Do you think those are ethical long-term investments, stefano? Or risky ones, for that matter?


Besides which, "healthy economy" only in the essentially religious worldview of the goldbugs, who still haven't figured out that all money is money only by agreed social convention, and in that sense fiat. Apparently if only we replaced the Federal Reserve's printing press with Newmont's and Barrick's gold mines, the universe would break out in justice.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby American Dream » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:09 pm

Sweejak wrote:
What worries you on the Right worries me on the Left too. Their authoritarian fantasies of "good government" don't do much for me.

My family has been destroyed by both Fascists and Communists and crushed by Socialism. It's in our history. We immigrated to the US for American ideals of liberty etc, however vaguely defined and imperfectly implemented. Maybe it's time to get crushed by "capitalism". Oh well, what else you got.


Understandable. I know a lot of people from areas that were ravaged by both Fascism and Communism, so I can understand why they would be leery about organizing for more collective/participatory economics.

I personally like the anti-capitalist strains of Anarchism advanced by people like Grubacic and Graeber, though there are a lot of other voices that have something interesting to add to the mix....
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