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A world where everyone has decent everything you mean? Free ponies for everyone? It isn't. It will limit the power of corporations, though, which is what we were talking about.American Dream wrote:Maybe I'm not understanding: How is giving market forces more or less free reign going to lead to a world where everyone has decent food, shelter, energy, medical care, education, work, and everything else?
Well, quite. Proudhon, though, not Lenin. That's exactly what I like about the US Libertarians (the ones with consistent and rational policy recommendations, I mean, not the idiots at lewrockwell.com). Their policies, if implemented, can make room for a true mutualist economy at the local level.exojuridik wrote:its closer to a version of working communism than the nationalist, greed is good credo favored by the Cult of Texas
I'm not sure about that. For starters, there's the potential political power of a freed-up labour movement, which libertarianism makes room for. Most of the victories in social struggles have been won by labour movements. Also, libertarians are democratic and tend to privilege local politics, giving more influence to people in elections.exojuridik wrote:Today, wealth and power are fungible because of the dominance of a normative regime that accords political privilege to money – libertarians don’t do anything to change this.
No, but it doesn't have to. My conviction is that the most fruitful struggle is to build enriching and mutually supportive systems at the local level (really local, like neighbourhoods and towns), and that a libertarian government, by reducing the weight of taxes and extorted surplus-value on citizens, would be most conducive to that happening.exojuridik wrote:So long as everything can be reduced to its immediate market value, we are all commodities to be bought and sold to the benefit of those who control the game. Again, libertarianism doesn’t address the status of our slave-masters within a capitalist system.
American Dream wrote:Maybe I'm not understanding: How is giving market forces more or less free reign going to lead to a world where everyone has decent food, shelter, energy, medical care, education, work, and everything else?
A world where everyone has decent everything you mean? Free ponies for everyone? It isn't. It will limit the power of corporations, though, which is what we were talking abou
Except that your statement is full of shit.
Stop me if I'm wrong, but if Paul is in line with Libertarian thinking, then he would remove any limits on campaign spending. No? (Yes, I'm aware the SC just did that. Can anyone point me to Paul's statement criticizing the decision?)
Joe Hillshoist wrote:Joe Hillshoist wrote:
Either everyone gets involved across the whole population or else the whole thing goes to shit.
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23 wrote:While I always liked JB, I never thought that he was infallible. This reply affirms that for me.
Libertarianism is the antithesis of coercive, centralized authoritarianism. And it is does not possess a "political/policy vacuum". A decentralized, nonintrusive, local government is not a vacuum. It is a counterpoint to an authoritarian, centralized one.
As Dave reminds JB in his original letter, the Tea Party started out with libertarian roots but was later co-opted by Christian nationalists.
The Christian nationalists are certainly fully capable of embracing authoritarian/fascist rule (they worship an authoritarian god, after all), but not the libertarians.
I'd give JB a lot more credit for precise thought construction if he didn't do what so many are too wiling to do: lump the two groups in one bag indiscriminately.
My concern is not over actually libertarian policies as they are by definition non-existent. What worries me is how the teabagger/libertarian movement with its populist appeal to nationalism and vague concepts like liberty, is actually setting up facism's goal making shot. In the political/policy vacuum of a libertarian world, it doesn't take much to rally the disaffected masses into embracing an authoritarian government that actually does work. However, instead of fostering a critical awareness of each person's interdependent political economic self-interest, this government will rally the citizens with a message of strength through unity flying under a paternalistic banner of national freedom/self-determination.
IOW- Libertarianism + Government = Authoritarian cult of Personality politics. And if the past 6,000 years of recorded history are any evidence, government is an irreducible constant in the whole equation of human civilization. I would argue that institutionalized government exists in some form even among preliterate hunter/gatherer tribes. Simply blaming all society's problems on it and wishing it is exactly the kind of magick thinking from which the dark spirits animating the Far Right feed.
Bageant: About the Tea Party movement. Yeah, you're right. It is not what it started out to be. Personally, I believe it has been co-opted by ultra conservative GOP think tanks operating in the background. I've seen it happen before and I believe I am seeing it happen now. With no proof, mind you.
23 wrote:This bullshit frustrates me endlessly. Ron Paul is against war and against subsidies. A USA that doesn't invade and whose market is fairly accessible for exports (especially food) would change the world, I'm not exaggerating, to the benefit of the worst off. But people like you don't want to understand this, because you actually believe that American meddling is or can be well-intentioned, if the imperialists that you are personally fond of are elected. 'The liberal defence of murder', Richard Seymour calls it."
Sweejak wrote:This is somewhat OT but I'll post it anyway since I have to catch up on a lot of posts which as usual I didn't receive notification for so I'm pages behind and skimming which isn't good for comprehension.. I've got to go do some work too.
Anyway, The film The Cradle Will Rock is brilliant in a number of ways, from the ominous syphilis cell painting fragment left over from the destruction of Diego Rivera's Rockefeller mural to the funeral procession of Bill Murray's puppet down the streets of today's Times Square, and what a great cast for the whole film. But to me the ultimate irony was the during the wonderful staging of the play in a alternate theater because here they were, singing about the glories of unity and unions etc while at the same time doing it in a unapproved theater and doing the performance in defiance of union rules, risking banishment from the union.
Cradle Will Rock
http://tinyurl.com/yfa3tpe
Sound snip:
http://web.me.com/kaaawa/Temp./Sound_Sn ... eller.html
BTW, I'm not anti- union, not especially, I think people have and should use the right to organize in just about any way they see fit especially when it comes to dealing with organized industry.
stefano wrote:But someone who's prepared to put his own savings at risk to achieve a healthy economy is surely more ethical than someone who isn't?
Stefano wrote:But hanging on to the corporatist death system for the sake of social security is sort of analogous to arguing that slavery isn't great, but at least slaves get housed and fed.
Chacha Ochibhota is young, he’s 21 years old, he has a skin pigmentation covering his face, his eyes are bloodshot, he speaks quietly and moves slowly. His medical examination states that on the 1st of July, he claimed to ‘have used acidic water, contaminated by the mining project – sustaining burns on the face…’ Referring him to the Tarime District Hospital for further investigations.
“I started feeling the problems in May this year,” he said. “I have a farm near the Tigithe River. When it was hot and sweaty I would bath in the water and wash my face and body to cool down.
“It felt different, when I tasted the water, it didn’t taste normal, it was a salty taste, and it was the feeling of rubbing salt in wounds…
“I was referred to the district hospital, but because I had no money, I didn’t go.
“For me,” said Chacha, “I need only treatment, so I can do work. Now I can only lie in bed, or do soft work…”
stefano wrote:But someone who's prepared to put his own savings at risk to achieve a healthy economy is surely more ethical than someone who isn't?
compared2what? wrote:Do you think those are ethical long-term investments, stefano? Or risky ones, for that matter?
What worries you on the Right worries me on the Left too. Their authoritarian fantasies of "good government" don't do much for me.
My family has been destroyed by both Fascists and Communists and crushed by Socialism. It's in our history. We immigrated to the US for American ideals of liberty etc, however vaguely defined and imperfectly implemented. Maybe it's time to get crushed by "capitalism". Oh well, what else you got.
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