What is #Pizzagate?

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What is #Pizzagate?

Right-Wing Hysteria/Hillary-Smear-Campaign
18
24%
Psy-Op to Discredit & Distract from Actual High-Level Pedophilia
16
22%
An Orchestrated Exposé to Destabilize Power Structures
4
5%
A Glimpse into Pedo-Culture in Washington, DC
19
26%
Evidence that Comet Ping Pong is a Money-Laundering Front for Child-Porn/Trafficking Business
4
5%
Evidence that Comet Ping Pong is both a Front & a Location for Child Abuse, Ritual or Otherwise
2
3%
All of the Above
5
7%
Other (Specify)
6
8%
 
Total votes : 74

Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:41 am

tapitsbo » 20 Dec 2016 20:54 wrote:So what makes something credited or discredited in your book, Joe, outside of this context? Is there any area in between (what kool maudit referred to as a "body of knowledge" and "alarm bells")

My assumption is that neither you nor I believe the authorities pursued all of the leads in the Epstein case.

What happens if someone buys babies and does nothing horrible to them? Just raises them "off the books" since they have friends who can provide different sets of documents as necessary? Is that a cool and understandable thing to do for prestigious members of society?



I get what you are saying. So why buy them when you can just take them? Why offer to buy someone's child off them when you could arrange for the same child to disappear cheaper? And with less direct connection to the event?

Epstein allegedly intimidated witnesses into withdrawing their testimony or their stories from public scrutiny. Someone who is capable of flying people to their own private island on their own private jet and then intimidating witnesses is probably more than capable of getting someone else to do the dirty work cheaply.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby tapitsbo » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:46 am

Quite plausible, Joe. Which makes the Epstein/Pizzagate overlap documented elsewhere (and the Epstein/Trump/Clinton overlap) all the more odd.

And reality is strange. Epstein dealt with money, in spades. He wasn't able to intimidate a wide range of media coverage of his curiously unseemly activities into absolute silence.

The idea that pizzagate has been altogether debunked, by self-sabotaging morons or otherwise, is also odd, although I do appreciate the points Wombat was making of course.

It was never bunked!

It was never more than a very strange and fuzzy picture, yet one whose meaning was awfully important to many people, by no means just those caricatured here as "true believers"...

it also appears that this "memeplex" is quite close, at times, to the hearts of "confirmed deniers", as we might call them.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby liminalOyster » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:03 am

I think Joe's post about hate speech is worthy of more discussion.

Despite the excessive lunacy of branding Pepe a hate symbol and the neat and opportunistic presentation of the alt-right proffered by neoliberal fucks, I do think the idea of the alt-right as an intellectualized white nationalism holds water. And I personally think some of the material in this thread is an intellectualized flashback to retrograde homophobic hate speech.

Curious that over at Voat pizzagate has similarly inspired florid and intellectualized allegations against Jews and Judaism.

I'm not ascribing ulterior motive to tapitsbo or guruilla by any means but I do think it's worth pointing out that at least one person is reading their commentary as such and I don't think it's a stretch.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby tapitsbo » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:14 am

It's funny how "fake news" and "hate speech" rhyme when we catalogue blasphemies. you're talking about extremely contentious notions here.

to paraphrase barracuda, who "owns" these ideas?

for fuck's sake.

Obviously this is a quick paced discussion but my intention is to speak as plainly as possible with you. If you'd be a little clearer with what you mean, LiminalOyster, maybe I wouldn't find what you're saying so contrived, inaccurate, and full of distracting buzzwords.

I see a good faith discussion from more than a few people here trying to understand what pizzagate is about.

Because I think the misapplied tropes you're deploying here are old hat to anyone who's seen how discussions of events like this get shut down. (911 being a textbook example)

guruilla and me aren't the only people in this thread suggesting that there's something going on with pizzagate.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby brainpanhandler » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:52 am

liminalOyster » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:43 pm wrote: our culture is completely saturated with 18 yo female models and pornographic actresses etc. They are "worth" more the younger they look. This is all quite acceptable in hetero contexts; maybe finger-wagged at but certainly not grounds for accusing your average adult american male of child abuse.


brainpanhandler » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:46 pm wrote:
guruilla » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:40 pm wrote:
barracuda » Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:21 pm wrote:Those same things overlap with hetero behavior, only moreso by several orders of magnitude. Christ.

And yet. No one is trying to defend creepy references to child exploitation by saying, "It's just part of heterosexual culture."

You're soaking in it.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:56 pm

That's a crucial point regarding porn and hetero-culture. It's only the extremely arbitrary decision by the 'Law' that 18 years old = adult where 17 years old = child that turns mainstream porn into 'child porn.' As porn addiction deepens, the desire for more and more extreme forms of pornography are needed to 'scratch the itch.' 'Normal' porn to 'teen' porn to 'exxxtra small' porn leads naturally to... guess where?

Conclusion: mainstream pornography, an order of magnitude more in terms of $$$ generation than Hollywood, is a gateway for normalizing quasi-pedophilia amongst heterosexual males. And it has been normalized, entirely. Not all consumers of hetero-porn wind up in the deep depths of 'actual' child-porn or in actual child abuse, certainly, but I have no trouble believing that a not-insignificant portion of them do.

Some say that a person isn't truly an adult until they undergo their first Saturn return around 30 years of age. So by that measure, 99% of mainstream porn is child porn.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby barracuda » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:09 pm

Personally, I'm only into milfs.

divideandconquer » Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:59 pm wrote:How much "LGBT culture has formed, or been formed (I'd say a combination of both) partially as a cloak for ... the sort of nasty shit under scrutiny at RI?" is a very good question.


Well, it MIGHT be a good question, were it properly formulated, without the inherent and obvious bias you've inserted into it. A less biased way to state the issue would be, "Has male gay culture been formed as a cloak for child sexual predation?"

I phrase it this way because your question assumes from the outset that it has - confirmation bias - and because we know for a fact that 99% or more of all child sexual predators are men. So I really don't think dyke culture is in question here, do you?

In any case, it is hardly worth consideration without some serious data to indicate that it is actually worth considering. I see none.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby barracuda » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:20 pm

liminalOyster » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:03 am wrote:I think Joe's post about hate speech is worthy of more discussion.

Despite the excessive lunacy of branding Pepe a hate symbol and the neat and opportunistic presentation of the alt-right proffered by neoliberal fucks, I do think the idea of the alt-right as an intellectualized white nationalism holds water. And I personally think some of the material in this thread is an intellectualized flashback to retrograde homophobic hate speech.

Curious that over at Voat pizzagate has similarly inspired florid and intellectualized allegations against Jews and Judaism.


Yep. A few pages back, FourthBase insisted that the July /pol/ thread from the so-called "FBI Anon" was the beginning of pizzagate. I disagree, but I know others feel differently. So maybe it bears examination of the ideas that FBI Anon passed along as an expert inside FBI analyst.

July 2, Second AMA about the Clinton case Anonymous (ID: vMmUnwCH), FBI Anon answers some questions from the peanut gallery:

Screen Shot 2016-12-19 at 12.13.24 PM.png


That last answer sorta jumps out at you, doesn't it? Time to rename the thread: "What is #Pizzahate?"
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby barracuda » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:31 pm

So now we've identified two persons apparently considered as the primary sources for the viral memewar of pizza gate - @DavidGoldbergNY and FBI Anon - as white nationalist antisemite Trumpers.

It just makes sense to start attacking the gays.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby liminalOyster » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:39 pm

tapitsbo » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:14 pm wrote:It's funny how "fake news" and "hate speech" rhyme when we catalogue blasphemies. you're talking about extremely contentious notions here.


I think the deployment of the "fake news" label is bald faced Orwellianism. I think suggesting gay culture is maybe a Trojan horse for organized abuse or just some normalization of pedophilia is hate speech, a designation not without merits when it's speakers are unwilling to engage the concerns of others. FWIW I don't think hate speech should be banned. And government has very little business judging the validity of independent media.

contrived, inaccurate, and full of distracting buzzwords ... misapplied tropes ... 9/11


Examples of where you see any of these things in what I've posted would be helpful. A bit less aggression would be nice too.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby guruilla » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:43 pm

Leaving aside all the meta-analysis and non-too-subtle thought control for a moment (which is all quite convenient for any possible perps should there actually be any crimes occurring), there's lots of excitement over at Voat over the connections literal and otherwise between CPP and Buck's Fishing & Camping, which Alefantis also owns. (There are 4 restaurants there: Comet Ping Pong, Little Red Fox, Bucks Fishing and Camping, and Besta Pizza.)

CPP is listed as having two floors; as is BFC

http://www.propertyshark.com/mason/Prop ... -DC-20008/

You can see in the pic these aren't 2-story buildings. BFC has a basement, hence "two floors."

Like Pastan, James Alefantis, owner of Comet Ping Pong in D.C., doesn't build his pizza sauce with DOP San Marzanos. For seven years, he has been buying late-harvest tomatoes from Toigo Orchards in Shippensburg, Pa., and canning them at nearby Stello Foods for use at Comet. Last year, Alefantis estimates, he bought 12 tons of Toigo tomatoes, which Stello turned into sauce and canned before trucking the jars to the basement at Buck's Fishing & Camping, Alefantis' other restaurant nearby.
http://www.philly.com/philly/food/resta ... looms.html


Others are saying that CPP & BFC are connected & that the proof is some of the CPP posters have said "access via BFC" ~ I don't know if this is true or not but obviously it would be significant if it is.

I remember in one of the Comet Ping Pong social events, the flier said access to the party was through Buck's Fishing and Camping. They are all physically connected.

https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/com ... for_james/

Another comment at same thread:

There's a documentary called "Chickenhawk - men who love boys 1994' They refer to pedos as "bucks" & an admitted pedophiles talks about taking children camping to have sex with them BUCKS FISHING AND CAMPING:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46nw1t7hCnU


There's also mention of the creepy BFC website pic, the site is down currently so I went to waybackmachine to see it. It's certainly tacky, I don't know if it quite sinks to the "creepy" level. Maybe for vegetarians?

Image

https://web.archive.org/web/20160110152 ... mping.com/

Is it unrelated that the site is currently down?

Anyhow, I'd say all of this adds up to a reason to ... release the hounds of rigorous indignation again!? :lol:

Clearly there's a concerted effort at RI to prevent any continued exploration of CPP, some of it probably benign if misguided, some of it not so benign. That's fine; it's evidence unto itself ... of something. So keep it up, by all means. As Divide & Conquer said, when the natives are getting as restless as this, it amounts to a strange, if distressing, form of confirmation that the bushes are being shaken.

I believe this is what RI was once all about?
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby barracuda » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:51 pm



I'm pretty sure you've nailed the crux of the whole conspiracy with this image.

Clearly there's a concerted effort at RI to prevent any continued exploration of CPP, some of it probably benign if misguided, some of it not so benign.


"Concerted"? You mean, you think we're private messaging each other with tactics and strategies devoted to shutting down the valiant researchers of steak-shaped cakes? Never.

Discussion =/= censorship, bub.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby barracuda » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:59 pm

guruilla » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:43 am wrote:(which is all quite convenient for any possible perps should there actually be any crimes occurring)


This is what attempting to shut down free discussion looks like - blaming criminal activity on honest actors asking actual questions. I thought you had some problem with that sort of blaming when it was directed at pizzagate researchers after the gunman at CPP? What has changed?
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby American Dream » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:21 pm

Sadly, this is all-too relevant:



The nocturnal side of reason posted by Richard Seymour


"The injunction to practice intellectual honesty usually amounts to sabotage of thought." -- Theodore Adorno.

"The one who says 'Don't lie!' has first to say, 'Answer!' and God did not give anyone the right to demand an answer from others. 'Don't lie!' 'Tell the truth!' are words which we must never say to another person in so far as we consider him our equal." -- Milan Kundera.



I.
The problem with the concept of "post-truth politics" is not just what it implies about "pre-post-truth politics". Strictly speaking, the concept is a category error. It is not truth, but facts which have been found wanting.

The very category of a ‘fact’ as an objective measurement of reality, which can be extruded from ideology, has taken a knocking since the credit crunch and subsequent economic malaise. Expertise, as Michael Gove reminded us, has made us sick. Its seeming commonsensical neutrality stands exposed as merely the prestige of the ruling ideology. Sir Humphrey Appleby can sound like a technocrat only for as long as the ends to which his techniques are crafted are taken for granted. Sam Kriss puts the point aphoristically: "a politics consisting of facts and nothing else isn’t politics, but management." And the managers have lost face.


II.
"Post-truth politics" is just what we have been living under. The "monstrous worship of facts," as Wilde called it, the tyranny of technique, is an avoidance of truth.

In a narrow sense, it is possible to question whether a given statement is true or not -- that is, whether it is factual. But what would it mean to ask whether liberalism, socialism, or fascism were factual? Each of these discourses can organise a set of factual claims in their support, but their truth or falsehood seems to reside elsewhere, in the register of desire. When politics obscures this, when we can no longer inquire as to the truth of the discourse by which we are governed, our politics has become "post-truth".

How this situation came about is not obscure. Politics can only be a matter of management, rather than struggle, if one side is comprehensively and crushingly victorious. What one should say about 1989 and all that, is not the communism was finally defeated, but rather that its long-standing defeat was confirmed, and immediately registered in a drastic contraction of the horizon of possibility. As Enzo Traverso puts it, "an entire representation of the twentieth century," in which the disasters of the age were the ground on which revolutionary hopes were built, fell apart.

All that was left in the history of the victors was tragedy, and the sanctified victim. Struggle was hitherto nothing but an unfortunate (if sadly necessary) prelude to the Shangri-La of neoliberal capitalism. This was the "end of history" -- and, it was suggested with a degree of grave-tramping relish, thank god that's all over.

In such circumstances, it became permissible to say anything, even the truth, without it making the slightest bit of difference. Because politics had moved beyond the dimension of truth. This was sometimes called "post-politics" or "post-democracy", but "post-truth politics" is just as adequate.


III.
It is not even necessarily the case that there has been a metric increase in the volume of political lying of late. It is simply that there has been a shift in political imaginaries. The ideological context in which we evaluate truth-claims is such that, while fewer people are likely to be taken in by fuzzy satellite imagery of weapons laboratories, proportionately more people are likely to be taken in by the idea that Mexican immigrants are rapists.

In the era of the 'war on terror,' there was much ado about a threat to reason posed by nefarious Islamists, poststructuralists, conspiracy theorists, and assorted leftists. There were various books by 'muscular liberals' extolling an historically disembodied, fetishistic version of the Enlightenment as the unique saleable property of 'Western civilization'. We could easily believe, then, in all sorts of strange and false stories, including about "al-Qaida" -- the blackhole into which all global problems were compressed.

And if the lies we tell, and believe, have changed, it is useless to respond to that with mournful nostalgia for the very recent past. According to Lacan, someone who lies on the couch is always operating in the dimension of truth. One can speak factually all day long, in an empty fashion devoid of (or rather, avoiding of) subjective truth. This is part of the resistance to analysis. As soon as one lies, however, one creates. And there is no creation without desire. Once you start to lie, you tell the truth about your desire -- perhaps in the only way that you can, through displacements and metaphors.

The lies we might tell about immigrants, for example, tell the truth about us. If we are not able to say, "any amount of immigrants is too many, and we should sadistically and brutally punish them for being here," we can instead massively exaggerate the numbers, identify migrants as 'illegals' and 'bogus', and scapegoat them for sexual assault and violent crime.

This is, of course, one reason why it is often useless to approach political argument like a debating society. One can correct false statistics, but people are neither simply deceivers nor deceived. They are, even when lying, operating in the dimension of truth. Correcting a lie, however necessary in its own right, does nothing to get to that other place, the place of desire -- and as such, by itself, it leaves the lie intact.


http://www.leninology.co.uk/2016/12/the ... eason.html
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby tapitsbo » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:26 pm

When enough of the participants wanting a topic like this to be discussed are themselves part of the "protected groups" being invoked it starts to feel like we could be seeing "in-group" enforcement tactics, another subject often discussed on this boarr over the ages.

A useful thing about the "alt-right" buzzword enthusiastically adopted by th same sources pushing the "fake news" framing sliding is that there are no clear criteria to determine what ISN'T "alt-right"

SOME posters here have no problem going so far as to smear e.g. women of colour (as if that should really matter) as "alt-right" in attempts to contain and derail tgeir dissent from the establishment line on topics like tge Syrian war - compare with how HRC accused pipeline protesters with "russian conspiracy" bullshit.
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