The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

[stickdog99]

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Why did I even say anything here, what was to be gained? Now I'm gonna take righteous bullshit from opposite ill-conceived positions: First, for saying that it's okay for Indians not to support the British Empire even against the Nazis during World War II (my god, I expressed "understanding" for this - how dare I presume to understand!!!). But second, also for saying that Bose was not a fascist, although it's wrong to actively ally with the Nazis. Apparently the latter is my Western privilege talking? (I thought the Nazis were a Western thing? Anyway, my perspective on German history is largely as a German historian.) Also, I spoke with too much "authority"! Very unlike stickdog's pronouncements.

I didn't pronounce anything but dismay at the certitude of your pronouncements. I just don't see history in the strictly black and white shades of establishment retrospective. I have zero problem with your opinions, and I welcome your informed input as always. I just think people should generally refrain from absolute pronouncements of villainy when judging the compromises indigenous people make in their struggles for self-determination.

Can you understand my admittedly too strongly worded perspective?

[RocketMan]

This is the Finnish marshall Mannerheim shaking hands with Hitler with president Risto Ryti looking on approvingly.

Mannerheim's statue is in the center of Helsinki and tourists take photos posing in front of it every day, probably, and Finland is not (yet at least, authoritarian racists are making gains) run by Nazi sympathizers.

Now, I wouldn't wear a Mannerheim t-shirt because it would signal that I'm a right-wing nationalist blowhard, but if I did, I probably wouldn't be thought of as a Nazi or fascist (though that inference COULD conceivably be made, but more due to him being a military hero than having shaken hands with Hitler).

The guy wore a t-shirt. Is it possible that it's not really caught fire in the media because there actually isn't that much scandalous about it...?

[stickdog99]

Nice. Now RI folks are making excuses for parading around wearing clothes depicting fascists. Wow.

Who the hell wears shit like that? Cryto Nazi or not. What would you think if we were both walking down the street and you saw me wearing a t-shirt of fascist who sat with Himmler and shook hands with Hitler? Where is Dr. Evil? I'm sure he would want to punch a Nazi supporter.

Bose wasn't fascist, he was Congress party.

Uh hmmmm....

Congress did not ally with Nazi Germany

Sure the party didn't "visit" Nazi Germany and sit down for tea, Bose DID. Maybe Himmler and Bose weren't trading recipes for Zyklon B, perhaps they were just sharing ideas on segregation and using fascist forms of government to gently rule nations.

Bose also founded the Free India Center and created the Indian Legion (4500 soldiers altogether) which was attached to the German Army, but later placed under the authority of the Waffen-SS. The members of the Indian Legion were required to swear allegiance to Hitler and Bose in order to secure German support.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/27956298/Sub ... ose-Netaji

"One is inclined to hold that the next phase in world-history will produce a synthesis between Communism and Fascism. And will it be a surprise if that synthesis in produced in India? ... In spite of the antithesis between Communism and Fascism, there are certain traits in common. Both Communism and Fascism believe in the supremacy of the State over the individual. Both denounce parliamentary democracy. Both believe in party rule. Both believe in the dictatorship of the party and in the ruthless suppression of all dissenting minorities. Both believe in a planned industrial reorganization of the country. These common traits will form the basis of the new synthesis. That synthesis is called ... 'Samyavada' -- an Indian word, which means literally 'the doctrine of synthesis or equality.' It will be India's task to work out this synthesis." -- Subhas Chandra Bose, The Indian Struggle (Bombay, New York: Asia Publishing House,1964), pp. 313f.

Compare Bose to Gandhi. if AOC and her staff are so much about peace, love and equality why isn't the dude wearing a shirt depicting Gandhi? It's really disgusting how AOC and this dude are given a pass. Anybody who can't see what this means is in denial about these puppets. AOC just so conveniently fits into the narratives.

One question is what Chakrabarti thinks he is wearing.

Let's not pretend here. No need to excuse him. If he is that dumb he has no business in the position he is in. If he is wearing it deliberately he has no business in the position he is in. Yes, I love the double bind. Don't care what he thinks, it's what he did wearing the shirt.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think it is OK for people from West Bengal, India to fly in and out of Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose International Airport? How many millions of people do we have to never take seriously again for such treachery!

Do you think it is OK for Italian-Americans to celebrate someone who committed genocide? How about you? Should we never take anything you ever say seriously because one of your associates once pulled a roll of $20s out of his pocket? You know, because of the Trail of Tears and all.

Perhaps AOC's Chief of Staff thinks Bose symbolizes a more militant attitude toward the struggle for equality and self-determination that he (as well as many Indians who lived through British colonial rule) admires. Bose clearly wanted to do what he felt was best for Indian self-determination. While my cursory analysis would be to disparage Bose's choice of alliances after 1939, in some ways his hand was forced as he was imprisoned by the British several times and thus exiled from his own country. That he made a deal with the devil under those circumstances (after his appeals were rejected by the USSR, he turned to Axis powers for help) is by no means heroic in my estimation, but it is completely understandable. And his vision for a synthesis of communism and fascism would have represented a significant improvement in egalitarianism, welfare, and self-determination for the average Indian citizen. It is so easy for individuals who never suffered the abject poverty that Indians were subjected to under colonial tyranny to offer blanket retrospective condemnations. How, oh how, could the utterly monstrous Bose have ever come to favor evil Hitler and evil Stalin over heroic Churchill?

Finally, I just don't get why anyone should reject the ideas of anyone else based on the ambiguous symbolic fashion choices of that person's associates. How about if you at least read some Indian opinions about Bose first? Can you at least try to understand why many of Bose's contemporary Indian compatriots still praise rather than condemn him?

https://quora.com/Why-some-Indians-stil ... uring-WWII

[Karmamatterz]

Is it possible that it's not really caught fire in the media because there actually isn't that much scandalous about it...?

No, it's because he is AOC's chief of staff and she is a the new media darling in the MSM. They wuv her.

Add to that many "journalists" are really really lazy and have shit for brains when it comes to history. Then glom on agendas and what their editors are telling them to focus on.

[stickdog99]

But we can't possibly take AOC seriously because she hired someone who commemorates an assassinated leader in the struggle for Indian independence on his t-shirt because you can produce PICTURES OF THIS SAME GUY MEETING WITH NAZIS!. That's the entire depth of your argument?

No, there is plenty of other material showing Bose was a fascist.

HELL YES, a picture of someone yucking it up with that sick FUCK HIMMLER is worth a thousand words. Look at the two sharing a smile.

Making excuses for Bose and fascist politics and the situation in India at the time....What was Gandhi doing?

I mean, if you are asking would I personally endorse wearing a Ghandi t-shirt over a Bose one, my answer is clearly yes.

Which t-shirt would you castigate a Native American for wearing, one depicting Zitkala-Ša or one depicting Tecumseh?

[stickdog99]

Is it possible that it's not really caught fire in the media because there actually isn't that much scandalous about it...?

No, it's because he is AOC's chief of staff and she is a the new media darling in the MSM. They wuv her.

Add to that many "journalists" are really really lazy and have shit for brains when it comes to history. Then glom on agendas and what their editors are telling them to focus on.

Shaming someone for her associate's choice of t-shirt is exactly the level of political discourse of our corporate media.

How can anyone ever take anything any BLM leader ever says seriously from now on!

[alloneword]

This is the Finnish marshall Mannerheim shaking hands with Hitler with president Risto Ryti looking on approvingly.

Christ, if that's his 'approving' face, I wouldn't have wanted to piss him off. Finns don't count, though - they're all completely mental.

Oh, if any one's interested in some 'Bhagat Singh' T-shirts, PM me. I'll even do you a discount for bulk orders.

[stickdog99]

[Karmamatterz]

That he make a deal with the devil under those circumstances

So the ends justify the means is it?

Well, actually I did some quick reading and most of the sites were Indian with English translation. What do I know? I was born a white male whose both parents families came from Ireland. Isn't it all our privilege to rip on other cultures, genders and societies when we disagree? Isn't that the popular thing to do now? I see it here on RI and this text is not supposed to be green. Lump'em all into one homogenous pot of I hate/can't stand/disagree with so I'll disparage XYZ PDQ.

But muh white male privilege! I was born that way but it's all MY fault.

Yes, it's my opinion and revulsion of seeing Himmler's smarmy smile and I don't have to like it. You may continue loving Bose, or not. You can show favor for Himmler if you want. In America (at least for now) we still have some semblance of free speech.

Maybe AOC should hold a press conference with her chief of staff and explain to the public how fascism is situational. You know, sometimes it's just okay to commit genocide and it's totally hipster swanky to wear hero t-shirts of people who publicly supported those fascists and begged for their help whilst living in that country for two year or more. I still prefer Gandhi's more laid back approach.

I use little cash and rarely if ever look at the faces on cash. If it were up to me our currency would depict nature, not people in our country.

[Karmamatterz]

Yes, Obama is a idiot for wearing that t-shirt. But hey, it fits his character. How many innocent people's deaths is he responsible for? He loved drone strikes and was all for the Patriot Act and other vile legislation. A more stylish and eloquent pres than Trump, but just as evil.

[Karmamatterz]

Shaming someone for her associate's choice of t-shirt is exactly the level of political discourse of our corporate media.

As well as the general public.

Just like some would like to punch a Nazi, I dislike fascists. Doesn't mean I want to punch them, I don't. I believe in free speech. Chakrabarti can wear Sponge Bob or Cult of the Dead Cow t-shirts. Go for it! Doesn't mean I have to like him, the shirt or approve of his choices. He works for a publicly elected member of Congress. Chakrabarti isn't flipping burgers.

AOC's chief of staff spoon feds her talking points. You can tell when she goes of the rails and starts making some really silly statements and asks absurd questions. So yeah, the dude is a pretty important "associate." Remove him or other "associates" from the picture for a month and see how she does on her own. Do you actually think AOC wrote the Green New Deal manifesto?

[stickdog99]

That he make a deal with the devil under those circumstances

So the ends justify the means is it?

Well, actually I did some quick reading and most of the sites were Indian with English translation. What do I know? I was born a white male whose both parents families came from Ireland. Isn't it all our privilege to rip on other cultures, genders and societies when we disagree? Isn't that the popular thing to do now? I see it here on RI and this text is not supposed to be green. Lump'em all into one homogenous pot of I hate/can't stand/disagree with so I'll disparage XYZ PDQ.

But muh white male privilege! I was born that way but it's all MY fault.

Yes, it's my opinion and revulsion of seeing Himmler's smarmy smile and I don't have to like it. You may continue loving Bose, or not. You can show favor for Himmler if you want. In America (at least for now) we still have some semblance of free speech.

Maybe AOC should hold a press conference with her chief of staff and explain to the public how fascism is situational. You know, sometimes it's just okay to commit genocide and it's totally hipster swanky to wear hero t-shirts of people who publicly supported those fascists and begged for their help whilst living in that country for two year or more. I still prefer Gandhi's more laid back approach.

I use little cash and rarely if ever look at the faces on cash. If it were up to me our currency would depict nature, not people in our country.

I just find your take bizarre, and the sophistry you just presented to defend it even more bizarre. What language is Indian? Doesn't India have 20+ languages? Did you mean Hindi? Why not read some opinion pieces translated from Bengali as well?

You can hate Himmler with the passion of ten thousand supernovas. Works for me, What I don't understand is how this righteous hatred necessarily forms a direct chain through which any idea associated with AOC is somehow rendered fascist and genocidal. I mean, do you think that the British Empire was guilty of genocide in China or India? And what happened to all the Native Americans that used to populate the territories that are now called the USA? Oh, and do you remember this peculiar institution called slavery?

Not sure how anybody is taking AOC seriously when her chief of staff brazenly wears t-shirts of, and is infatuated with Subhas Chandra Bose.

Himmler->picture of Bose meeting Himmler->picture of Bose on t-shirt worn by AOC's chief of staff->AOC's chief of staff->AOC->any ideas that AOC ever espouses? I realize that this is only six degrees of separation, but still.

Sure, I'm slightly curious about the justification for this questionable fashion choice, but does it really follow from this questionable fashion choice that no one can ever take anything AOC says seriously again? Can't you see how almost anybody in the entire world could be similarly demonized?

[PufPuf93]

My Guys, Aleister and Barack.

Obama wasn't what he was sold as but probably did the less damage of any recent POTUS.

Aleister sold himself for what he was and probably wasn't as evil as his infamy.

I possess about 80 Crowley books to one Obama book. Some of the Crowley books are 1st editions.

A much simpler world would be where we could judge all based upon their t-shirts (or bookshelves).

[Karmamatterz]

Yes, you got me good on the languages and translation bit. That was sloppy.

Fact remains fascism is fascism. Doesn't matter what snowflake cultural or political circumstances you're dealing with.

Beat around the bush all day and night and it still remains. Change the locale to whatever nation state you want. Keep the excuses coming. Cultures create heroes and their own mythology to obfuscate as needed. Sometimes its just too much to accept.

America wasn't the first to institute slavery and won't be the last. Germany wasn't the first to commit genocide and won't be the last, unfortunately. It's a horrible stain on our history as a nation. No amount of money can ever right the wrongs. No amount of glory and hero worship will take away the British wrongs committed in "their" colonies. Continual proliferation of excuses, myths and glory in nationalism won't take away hurts, wrongs and murder.

As far as I know Native Americans weren't fascists. Nor were they elected to public office and willingly joined the matrix to continue the massive game that is being played and using us as pawns.

[stickdog99]

Yes, you got me good on the languages and translation bit. That was sloppy.

Fact remains fascism is fascism. Doesn't matter what snowflake cultural or political circumstances you're dealing with.

Beat around the bush all day and night and it still remains. Change the locale to whatever nation state you want. Keep the excuses coming. Cultures create heroes and their own mythology to obfuscate as needed. Sometimes its just too much to accept.

America wasn't the first to institute slavery and won't be the last. Germany wasn't the first to commit genocide and won't be the last, unfortunately. It's a horrible stain on our history as a nation. No amount of money can ever right the wrongs. No amount of glory and hero worship will take away the British wrongs committed in "their" colonies. Continual proliferation of excuses, myths and glory in nationalism won't take away hurts, wrongs and murder.

As far as I know Native Americans weren't fascists. Nor were they elected to public office and willingly joined the matrix to continue the massive game that is being played and using us as pawns.

But the USA was one of very last to (sort of) outlaw slavery. Wasn't it?

OK, I agree with you that AOC did not come up with the Green New Deal on her own, and that her chief of staff is definitely a person of interest and that his political proclivities are fair game in terms of anyone's analysis of AOC's political trustworthiness. But shouldn't AOC be judged more on the entire Green New Deal platform she supports than she is on the questionable historical figure her employee occasionally brandishes on his t-shirts?

Again, my whole justification for supporting AOC is not that she is flawless, but only that all politicians are relative. And at this point, I'll eagerly take a Green New Deal, even if it comes with an "I'M WITH STUPID" t-shirt. How about you?

I also agree with you 100% that the cult of personality is itself destructive. You won't catch me personally buying a t-shirt bearing the visage, name, or slogan of any overtly political figure. But I do have the free t-shirt that I got for subscribing to PBS (so my girlfriend could watch Sherlock and Jacque Pepin) several years ago. I hope that when I wear my PBS t-shirt because I cannot afford to do my laundry that you grant me absolution for my direct association with the Ford Foundation, the Carnegie Corporation of New York, and the Jay and Sharon Rockefeller Foundation.