IS JOSEPH CAMPBELL AN ANTI-SEMITE?

[seemslikeadream]

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Rigorous Intuition, the good, the bad and the ugly.

yes it is the ugly...I agree any time I am compelled to fight the stupid use of the word ..it is ugly...it is on my top 10 list of the ugliest RI threads of all time

[seemslikeadream]

I'm a little late to the picnic, but I couldn't tell from the 4 short biographies I read, did he have extensive field study experience? I am under the impression he did some travelling later in life, as a celebrated academic, with his wife...but prior to this...
It relates to a conversation I had with an old college friend, his take on Campbell was along the lines of "he's the world's best film critic..." I never really understood it, but the amount of time he takes on ritual, ceremony, etc, I would have expected to find all kinds of material from years and years of taking part in said activities. I know he went to India and Japan, but am lacking information on any interaction with many of the rituals, ceremonies, religious festivals, etc. I think my friend's point was, he never really took part, just as an outside observer. That, to me, would partly explain some of his observed lackings of empathy that seem to have been noted by others. I don't know.
I'm not disparaging, I am just looking for more information if anyone has it. We might also write a personal note to Charlie Rose, he interviewed him more than once, and would probably have a good handle on personality...who knows?
Otherwise, I have no dog in this fight; Personally, he never really did it for me, especially after I discovered writers the likes of Herodotus, C. Wright Mills, Veblen, Marx, and even Sitchin.

Thailand, Cambodia, Burma, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, India

Baksheesh and Brahman: Asian Journals - India (The Collected Works of Joseph Campbell)
by Joseph Campbell (Author) , Robin Larsen (Editor) , Stephen Larsen (Editor) , Antony Van Couvering (Editor)

http://www.amazon.com/Baksheesh-Brahman ... 1577312376


http://www.amazon.com/Sake-Satori-Journ ... 1577312368
In this second volume of his Asian journals, Campbell reports on his travels through east Asia and his five-month stay in Japan. Sake and Satori includes the never-before-published sequel to Campbell’s Baksheesh and Brahman and covers the author’s journeys through Thailand, Cambodia, Burma, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Japan. It offers a snapshot of 1950s Asia and its rapidly changing postcolonial and Cold War tensions. Campbell shares his experiences with Noh drama, Kabuki theater, and geisha houses, and explores how Asia absorbs and resists Western notions of gender, pluralism, and wealth. He relates conversations with fellow travelers, scholars, and Japanese people from all walks of life. Along the way, his asides develop into philosophical explorations augmented with photos and


There are over 250, 000 pages of his written diaries, journals, notes, outlines etc which are currently being archived and maintained by the Joseph Campbell foundation.


In the summer of 1924, the whole family traveled to Europe, which would be the first of a number of such journeys. On the ship he met Jiddu Krishnamurti, the young “messiah-elect” of the international Theosophical movement. Krishnamurti would become one of the most admired spiritual teachers of the twentieth century. There is a website devoted to his teachings. On the ship he was given the book, “The Light of Asia” by Edwin Arnold, which included the enthralling story of the prince Siddhartha, who would become the historical Buddha. He later said that when he began to read this book the “fish was hooked”. On this trip they went to London, Paris, Switzerland by train, then Milan, Venice, Florence, Rome, Pompeii and to Naples. The art and culture of Europe fascinated Campbell. Also, while in Paris he purchased a book by Sigmund Freud called Totem or Taboo and it was the first time he had heard of Freud whose ideas were still controversial.


In 1926 he visited England and a trip to Glastonbury with Arthurian connections and time-haunted ruins and he culminated his master’s thesis at Columbia with Arthurian studies and his hostility to priestly Christianity was apparent in the last 30 pages of his thesis.

1927-1928 he spent in Europe in France studying OLD French. Also, in the bookstores of Paris was displayed a large, a forbidden book-a scandalous book—with a blue cover and had been banned and even burned in England and America but in 1927 in Paris it was all the rage: James Joyce’s Ulysses and after having initial difficulty understanding the book, Campbell wrote, “No one in the world knew more than what James Joyce knew of what I was trying to find out! To translate knowledge and information into experience: that seems to me the function of literature and art.


In 1929 he went overland to Greece into Istanbul. He wrote his friend in 1931, it is through having experienced all experience that the soul finally achieves perfect sympathy and understanding.

In December 1929 he took a cruise throughout the Caribbean with his brother and onboard he met a lady named Adelle Davis with whom he had his first intimate relationship.

In 1953 Campbell met with the Wizard, Carl Jung at his medieval tower-retreat near the village of Bollingen in Switzerland

Journey to East (Hindu India, 1954-1955)

In New Delhi, Campbell lectured to one of his larger audiences to date: 2000 people…the event was held in a great open-air meeting. His topic was “The Influence of Indian Thought upon the American Mind”
http://www.uufsa.org/sunday/dp3-00jc1.htm

[Hunter]

The Hastings Thread

The Boston Bombing Thread

This Thread


Rigorous Intuition, the good, the bad and the ugly.

yes it is the ugly...I agree any time I am compelled to fight the stupid use of the word ..it is ugly...it is on my top 10 list of the ugliest RI threads of all time

I understand, was not really referring to you or anyone in particular, just that some of these threads do indeed turn ugly just by the nature of what they are about, its not an indictment on any poster in general, I do kind of see both sides of the argument here and have just tried to stay out of it. I am/was a big JC guy but whatever...I really dont know anything about his personal life or bliefs, just what he wrote in his various books which I have enjoyed over the years for different reasons.

[seemslikeadream]

The Hastings Thread

The Boston Bombing Thread

This Thread


Rigorous Intuition, the good, the bad and the ugly.

yes it is the ugly...I agree any time I am compelled to fight the stupid use of the word ..it is ugly...it is on my top 10 list of the ugliest RI threads of all time

I understand, was not really referring to you or anyone in particular, just that some of these threads do indeed turn ugly just by the nature of what they are about, its not an indictment on any poster in general, I do kind of see both sides of the argument here and have just tried to stay out of it. I am/was a big JC guy but whatever...I really dont know anything about his personal life or bliefs, just what he wrote in his various books which I have enjoyed over the years for different reasons.

Yes I understand you were not referring to me ....I am wondering if you ever had heard this vicious accusations before this thread? Was there anything you saw or read of Campbell's that lead you to believe he was an anti-semite?

[compared2what?]

Antisemitism is but one element in a much bigger picture.

Those that make it into a central element, which is understandable for some given our circumstances, might consider that excessive lingering on this theme could be a marker for ones own racism.

Same might be said of any such too disproportionate, exclusive or exclusionary emphasis.

But if there's a presumption that one exists on this thread, I'm not sure on what you're basing it. His remarks are being discussed in the context of (inter alia) his achievements, background, time, place and circumstances. Which are (in turn) being discussed in the context of pertinent historical/cultural/social conditions of a broad and general nature.

The emphasis and orientation arises from cause, not preference. In other words.

Are you saying you'd like to see more digressive examinations of (let's say) the Century Club, Joseph Heller, myth-as-model, racialism, and mid-century American academic life, because to focus on the topic excessively is just too darn biased? Or what?

Not that it needs to be said probably, but yes, my friend is a Zionist.

Needed saying for me, actually. I assume that racist means race is the central issue, when not otherwise specified.

_________________

Hi, Sounder! NO PERSONAL IMPLICATIONS. Nothing but love.

[compared2what?]

Antisemitism is but one element in a much bigger picture.

Those that make it into a central element, which is understandable for some given our circumstances, might consider that excessive lingering on this theme could be a marker for ones own racism.

Another way of approaching the same question I was trying to ask in my prior reply might be:

It's very true that anti-Semitism is but one element in a much bigger picture, in a big-picture sense.

But let's say the topic at hand is whether or not The Merchant of Venice is an anti-Semitic play.

To skip the summation and go straight to the verdict, imo: Not necessarily, and therefore (effectively): No. It's not.

Is that excessive lingering on a theme that could be a marker for one's own racism?

Ought I to have mentioned zionism? If so, why? Seems not implicated to me. Extraneous to the question being canvassed. An important but separate issue.

[ShinShinKid]

Thanks, SLAD, you got me going in the right direction...I parsed this quote from a top reviewer of his journeys to Japan:

" In one passage, Campbell wonders if he has not perhaps wasted his trip to Japan by spending long hours studying Japanese language rather than experiencing the country. I could not help but think the same thing."

This is what I was afraid of. As a student of Traditional (Koryu) and Non-traditional (Gendai) martial arts of Japan, I was interested in whether JC had ever picked up a sword in his travels...OK, so my vision was of a well educated western man, roaming the countryside -- gathering knowledge and wisdom along way. He comes home from Japan a multi-graded badass, proficient in sword, staff, and the unarmed combative arts. I did not really find that. How about the beautiful Chado tea ceremonies, or Ikebana, even? And all the crazy festivals they have in Japan, I did not find him talk of a single one, or at least, detail it in any way. From what I could find online through samples, it was basically a self-described language immersion course for himself and his wife. I mean, really, he's okay, and he's got some great writing skills, but I am still myself not seeing the significance of all this arguing!
He's very pro-Japan, which is cool, but I have also found some anti-Indian stuff, I will get deeper into that and present when I can.
Thanks again,

[Hunter]

The Hastings Thread

The Boston Bombing Thread

This Thread


Rigorous Intuition, the good, the bad and the ugly.

yes it is the ugly...I agree any time I am compelled to fight the stupid use of the word ..it is ugly...it is on my top 10 list of the ugliest RI threads of all time

Yes I understand you were not referring to me ....I am wondering if you ever had heard this vicious accusations before this thread? Was there anything you saw or read of Campbell's that lead you to believe he was an anti-semite?

Well lets see, I have been reading and collecting his books for twenty plus years, watching those videos that were always on etc, and during that twenty plus years I have also done a fair amount of research in to the guy and read a fair amount of what his critics have to say about him and his teachings and I can honestly say that not a single time did the word antisemite or the idea that he was an antisemite and Hitler sympathizer ever come up, not a single time. I dont consider myself a JC expert but I am familiar enough with his stuff that I can sit down with anyone and have a solid discussion about what is in his books and interviews so I would think if this were something that was being floated about him I would have certainly stumbled on it somewhere. I am also Jewish and accordingly I have that natural Jewish radar that generally tunes me in to any antisemitism around me or within anything I am learning about etc. So the answer is no, this is all definitely new to me. That is not to say that the person here who brought this up is wrong, like I said I am not a know everything expert on JC but I know enough to comfortably say that I have never suspected any of this about him so it is all rather surprising to me as it is to you also, as I see.

[brainpanhandler]

ShinShin,

I wouldn't blame you for not reading the entire thread if you haven't. But I think if you carefully read the thread, hear what everybody is saying, carefully assess how people responded to one another... it should become apparent that all the arguing is not solely motivated by principled disagreements on whether jc was an antisemite or not. It's obviously not an either/or question.

My own experience of JC was through the Bill Moyers interviews when I was a kid and then reading The Hero with a Thousand Faces. I've since read it 2 more times. Highly recommended if you haven't.

In the Bill moyers interviews JC displays an encylopedic knowledge of mythology and positively exudes an inner peace and transcendence that is at such odds with my picture of a hate filled racialist, antisemite that I was a bit taken aback by the evidence in this thread that he might have had some antisemitic tendencies and he might have had some eugenicist ties. This piqued my curiosity and I have followed this thread fairly closely. He was a complicated man. Can one be a blissed out genius and also an antisemite. I'm not so sure I know the answer anymore.

[justdrew]

the only thing that really bothers me is the Mankind Quarterly thing.

When did he quit? (before death I assume)

What about the history of this publication, I know it's got some shady characters but frm what little I've been able to gleen, it could be it didn't go clearly off the rails on racism until the late 70s.

If his editorship (which only clearly seems to be claimed BY M.Q.) was a huge deal, it's odd that his detractors haven't made more hay with that.

I found a couple reviews of Campbell books that had been published in M.Q. and they were not exactly glowing. I've found nothing written BY Campbell actually published in M.Q. Though I don't have access to their archive.

[seemslikeadream]

ShinShin,

I wouldn't blame you for not reading the entire thread if you haven't. But I think if you carefully read the thread, hear what everybody is saying, carefully assess how people responded to one another... it should become apparent that all the arguing is not solely motivated by principled disagreements on whether jc was an antisemite or not. It's obviously not an either/or question.

My own experience of JC was through the Bill Moyers interviews when I was a kid and then reading The Hero with a Thousand Faces. I've since read it 2 more times. Highly recommended if you haven't.

In the Bill moyers interviews JC displays an encylopedic knowledge of mythology and positively exudes an inner peace and transcendence that is at such odds with my picture of a hate filled racialist, antisemite that I was a bit taken aback by the evidence in this thread that he might have had some antisemitic tendencies and he might have had some eugenicist ties. This piqued my curiosity and I have followed this thread fairly closely. He was a complicated man. Can one be a blissed out genius and also an antisemite. I'm not so sure I know the answer anymore.

of course not don't read the whole thread just brekin and AD useless post that don't prove anything only rumor and an old friends postmortem gutless critique written after he was dead...he could have confronted him when he was alive they were good friends could have given him the chance to defend himself. but no gutless coward.....

They ain't got nothin' else but innuendo and gossip

of course don't read all the posts that prove he had many many friends who never saw that side of him so that must prove that all those people were so stupid as to be fooled by an anti-semite in their mist. All those stupid naive people What a magician Campbell was! Even his own wife who was Jewish didn't see that side of him but she was only with him 38 years maybe if he hadn't died so soon she would have figured it out given a few more years.

Then you can say I just don't know anymore

[brainpanhandler]

Drew,

Joseph Campbell was on the Mankind Quarterly, the last refuge of scientific racism. That fact alone speaks volumes. Within a few months of its creation in the early 60s, after its orientation had become clear, many of the original board members resigned in protest. Campbell didn't. Campbell worked in the Dumézilian comparative mythology tradition, a movement very close to pre-war european fascism, and linked with the German Ahnenerbe, whose mission was to document and reconstruct the original structure of indo-european (i.e. Aryan) mythology and society. The semantics had to change post-war, but the ideology clearly remained fairly unchanged.

Maybe the doc can provide some citations. I'm not having a lot of luck.

Mankind Quarterly's website does list JC as having been on their editorial board fwiw.

http://www.mankindquarterly.org/about.html

[seemslikeadream]

IT'S POSTED ON THE FIRST PAGE.... WHAT IS DIFFERENT NOW.... IT IS THE SAME LINK.... WHY ARE YOU POSTING IT AGAIN 15 PAGES LATER?


that link has been posted numerous times doesn't make it any more relevant because you are posting it


remember people that one link being posted over and over and over....means nothing does not prove anything

lovely innuendo though.....perfect

[jfshade]

WRT the Icke, Campbell, Hitler thing:

I'd prefer Campbell, Jung, Elaide, and a dangerously essentialist view of Jews. A view that was (is, to an extent) broadly held among educated Europeans and Americans - a point C2W and others have made.

Here's the part of Brendan Gill's NYRB piece alleging anti-semitism:

Campbell’s bigotry had another distressing aspect, which was a seemingly ineradicable anti-Semitism. By the time I came to know him, he had learned to conceal its grosser manifestations, but there can be no doubt that it existed and that it tainted not only the man himself but the quality of his scholarship. For example, he despised Freud, and it appeared from our talks that he did so in large part because of the fact that Freud was Jewish. He approved highly of Jung and not least because Jung wasn’t Jewish. In an episode unknown to me until after Campbell’s death, as a young man he had provoked an indignant letter from no less a person than Thomas Mann, one of his two literary idols (the other was Joyce). In December 1941, three days after Pearl Harbor, Campbell gave a lecture at Sarah Lawrence on the subject “Permanent Human Values,” urging the assembled undergraduates not to be caught up in war hysteria and not to be tricked into missing the education to which they were entitled simply because “a Mr. Hitler collides with a Mr. Churchill.” Campbell argued that “creative writers, painters, sculptors, and musicians” ought to remain “devoted to the disciplines of pure art.” In time of war, the fortitude of the literary man and artist consists of remaining aloof from the political cockpit, giving no thought to the “undoing of an enemy.” At that very moment, Mann was devoting much of his energy to arousing the world to the menace of Hitler and the Nazis; for reasons difficult to imagine, Campbell sent a copy of his lecture to Thomas Mann, then living in Princeton, and received a civil but obviously angry letter in reply, which, translated from the German, reads in part:

"As an American, you must be able to judge better than I, in a country which just now, slowly, slowly, under difficult and mighty obstacles, I hope not too late, has come to the true recognition of the political situation and its necessities, whether it is appropriate at this particular moment to recommend political indifference to American youth…."

"It is strange, you are a friend of my books, which therefore according to your opinion must have something to do with “Permanent Human Values.” Now these books are forbidden in Germany and in all countries that Germany rules, and whoever reads them or even should sell them, and whoever would so much as praise my name publicly would be put into a concentration camp and his teeth would be bashed in and his kidneys split in two. You teach that we must not get upset about that, we must rather take care of the maintenance of permanent human values. Once again, this is strange."

Campbell’s speech did him no lasting harm; it was not widely circulated and it seems likely that it was dismissed by those who read it as the special pleading of a passionate young humanist, and with the eventual British-American victory over the Nazis (for Mr. Hitler did indeed collide with Mr. Churchill) even Mann may have found it in his heart to forgive him. Nevertheless, Mann’s rebuke evidently galled Campbell. Many years later, he gave a talk in which he claimed that a monumental mistake had been made when Mann was invited to give the main address at the banquet held in 1936 to celebrate Freud’s eightieth birthday. According to Campbell, in the course of his eulogy of Freud, Mann had criticized Freud—whom Campbell mistakenly believed to have been in the audience and whom he described as “that poor little old man”—for not being aware that most of his discoveries had already been made by earlier German writers. (In fact, Mann’s admiration for Freud was unbounded and Freud was much gratified by the eulogy.) Campbell wound up his speech by noting that Mann “had lost altitude” as an artist by descending into political activity and raising his voice against the Nazis.

[seemslikeadream]

IT'S POSTED ON THE FIRST PAGE WHAT IS DIFFERENT NOW IT IS THE SAME COLUMN WHY ARE YOU POSTING IT AGAIN 15 PAGES LATER?


which has been posted over and over again also...been there done that....one creep's writing

posting it over and over again doesn't make it more than what it is....doesn't make it another accusation just the same one over and over oand over again



Winston Churchill completely omitted from the text of his Nobel Prize-winning, 6-volume treatise The Second World War any mention the 1942-1945 Bengali Holocaust in which he deliberately starved to death 6-7 million Indians.


What do you call someone that hates Indians? And actually killed a whole lot of them

I will not pretend that, if I had to choose between communism and nazism, I would choose communism.
Speaking in the House of Commons, autumn 1937
I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes.
Writing as president of the Air Council, 1919

It is alarming and nauseating to see Mr Gandhi, a seditious Middle Temple lawyer, now posing as a fakir of a type well known in the east, striding half naked up the steps of the viceregal palace, while he is still organising and conducting a campaign of civil disobedience, to parlay on equal terms with the representative of the Emperor-King.
Commenting on Gandhi's meeting with the Viceroy of India, 1931

(India is) a godless land of snobs and bores.
In a letter to his mother, 1896

I do not admit... that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia... by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race... has come in and taken its place.
Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937



...now there's some actual hate for ya