Theophobia

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Re: Theophobia

Postby justdrew » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:44 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
barracuda wrote:
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.


I don't know where you got that, but it could just as easily be from any religion as it is from any propaganda machine of State or corporation.

The salient point is this: no matter what its origin, that text was most probably written by a man funded and motivated by "rationalists." (for want of a better term).


isn't those purported words of J.C. ?
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Re: Theophobia

Postby Canadian_watcher » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:47 pm

@ justdrew... oh probably. I don't know. But thank you for saying 'purported.' Wherever they come from we have no context, either.

Any revolutionary could have said it and meant it. The storm before the change.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: Theophobia

Postby MacCruiskeen » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:50 pm

Luke 12:51 / 52

Stan Goff quotes it, in the piece I linked to above:

Jesus never gave his sanction to war. The most common quote from scripture used by warmongering government and clergy is Luke 12:49-53, where Jesus says He will sow discord in the family.

JC, according to Luke, wrote:I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”


He does not say “not peace, but war.” He’s says “not peace, but division.” And the faultline for that division is between generations. Age and gender in 1st Century Palestine defined familial authority. Familial authority was the basis of social stability (the “peace” of Power). Get your head around that.

These divisions are not between brothers and sisters who are the co-children of God, but between generations and the hereditary powers that inhered in the system of human authority. To name this passage a call to war, or its justification, simply because it says he comes not to bring “peace” to domination in the patriarchal household, is a rhetorical acrobatic, just as the return of Caesar’s image is not by any stretch a call to obey the government. This passage is a call to divide human authority in order to reunite authority under a loving God. And it is a clear call.

The official doctrine of the armed forces is based on an Enemy. The doctrine of the Kingdom of God “on earth as it is in heaven” has no enemies.

Ever since Constantine subverted the church by making it a state religion, the powers and principalities have taken the name of Christ and abused it to make war. Christ invoked to support prejudice and oppression. Christ invoked to line pockets (ignoring that Jesus said you cannot serve God and money at the same time). (Matt 6:24) Look past these centuries of pretenders, because the Word that is the Christ remains unshakable, even when it is a minority view in a broken and warlike culture. You are called to disobey human authority each and every time that authority commands you to increase the brokenness of the world.

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Re: Theophobia

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:06 pm

barracuda wrote:
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.


it's a neat trick but put the passage back in context (keep Mac's remarks above in mind) and it reads differently. actually one could say that David foster Wallace's piece is a meditation on it.

<< Luke 12 >>
New International Version

Warnings and Encouragements

1Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 3What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.

4“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6Are not five sparrows sold for two penniesa? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

8“I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. 9But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. 10And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

11“When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, 12for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.”

The Parable of the Rich Fool

13Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”

14Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” 15Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”

16And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. 17He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’

18“Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’

20“But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’

21“This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God.”

Do Not Worry

22Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23Life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his lifeb? 26Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?

27“Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! 29And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

32“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Watchfulness

35“Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. 38It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night. 39But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

41Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”

42The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

47“That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Not Peace but Division

49“I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

Interpreting the Times

54He said to the crowd: “When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘It’s going to rain,’ and it does. 55And when the south wind blows, you say, ‘It’s going to be hot,’ and it is. 56Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don’t know how to interpret this present time?

57“Why don’t you judge for yourselves what is right? 58As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.c”

http://niv.scripturetext.com/luke/12.htm


the teachings he brings will give rise to division. it follows.

*
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Re: Theophobia

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:33 pm

LOL WE ARGUE A LOT HERE

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Re: Theophobia

Postby Canadian_watcher » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:34 pm

@ Wombat
My husband would love those. Plus it goes with my idea for a drive-thru only business "Anything on a Bun"
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Re: Theophobia

Postby barracuda » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:42 pm

vanlose kid wrote:it's a neat trick


It wasn't meant as a trick, just a reminder that faith can be divisive, and probably causes as much trouble as serenity in the world, and that has been true for a long, long time.
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Re: Theophobia

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:50 pm

barracuda wrote:
vanlose kid wrote:it's a neat trick


It wasn't meant as a trick, just a reminder that faith can be divisive, and probably causes as much trouble as serenity in the world, and that has been true for a long, long time.


ideas and convictions can be divisive. the trick thing has to do with you repeating how it's done in certain circles., see Mac's comment on it above. the christian right does it all the time.

edit: your quoting it out of context merely reflect/repeats the christian right's quoting it out of context. by doing so they can make it mean what they want it to mean. if e.g. leftist's in the US such as those Eagleton critiques knew the passage and its context they would be able to turn the passage against the people who misuse it by bringing it out.

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Re: Theophobia

Postby barracuda » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:57 pm

The difference is that I didn't assign any meaning to the quote, but allowed the reader to find his own. This is not what the right do, at all.

Also: I thought most people would recognise it from Mac's post.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
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Re: Theophobia

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:02 pm

barracuda wrote:The difference is that I didn't assign any meaning to the quote, but allowed the reader to find his own. This is not what the right do, at all.

Also: I thought most people would recognise it from Mac's post.


yeah, i know. problem is that the meaning kind of falls away, or becomes something people can make anything of outside of the context. in context the ideas expressed are very simple. think differently from and work against the status quo and people turn against you.

happens all the time.

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Re: Theophobia

Postby barracuda » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:10 pm

Well the meaning that I make of it is that your faith will divide you from those of a different faith.

10And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.


Speak against my person, and you will be forgiven. Speak against my faith and you will not.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
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Re: Theophobia

Postby hanshan » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:27 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
hanshan wrote:..

The Consul wrote:
MacCruiskeen wrote:No, Consul, it's not like that at all.

PS I like Carlin, but I don't worship him. And it's further proof that any scripture, including Saint George's, can be cherrypicked to spread confusion.



Abashment, however it is coded, is only a two way mirror held by souls that spright themselves a secret station, only to be apprenticed to all who obviate their wiles.



good call

...


I'm going to call your bluff, hanshan, and then The Consul's:

Why "good call"? Exactly what did the Consul mean by that, if anything?

Because I submit that it is a smokescreen: a piece of pretentious, fraudulent and strictly meaningless verbiage, and of no relevance whatsoever to the post it purports to reply to or to the issue at hand.

Thank you.


...


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Re: Theophobia

Postby Canadian_watcher » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:29 pm

So, barracuda, is this part of the reason that you have a negative reaction to the opinions and findings of people of faith?

"This" meaning the way that you perceive the religious right to take things out of context?
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: Theophobia

Postby barracuda » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:32 pm

I simply quoted scripture. It's open to interpretation, as you can see.

Canadian_watcher wrote:So, barracuda, is this part of the reason that you have a negative reaction to the opinions and findings of people of faith?


You mean, when did I stop beating my wife?

Because I have no such reaction.
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Re: Theophobia

Postby 82_28 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:42 pm

It's like all the Sunday's I went to church and after of course swearing all that off, watching the hipster douche preachers with spiky hair on TV since. They take like fuckin' one line out of Psalms and then expound on whatever their right wing point is,then jump to John and read a line or two there, then jump to Phillipians read another line, expound, then go to David or some shit. Then they say "see war is right and wholesome!". "Let us pray" and then the emo Christian band rounds it out.

All right wing religionists use the fallacy of taking shit in the Bible out of context with aplomb. The seminary is only a way to hold back self- hating homosexual urges. Believe me. My dad be gay and he wanted to be a preacher when he returned from Vietnam. He has often said, "you have no idea how many closeted gay dudes there are when we go to church." Luckily my dad was a Christian liberal among rightist self-loathing hypocrites and was able to spawn the great 82_28 before he figured his shit out. ;)
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