"Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

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Re: "Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

Postby MacCruiskeen » Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:35 pm

Utøya helicopter response scrutinized

August 4, 2011

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/04/ ... rutinized/

[...]

Many policemen who have spoken to TV2 have apparently said that a police helicopter could have made “an essential difference” and “stopped” Breivik. The leader of the police trade union (Politiets Fellesforbund, PF), Arne Johannessen, commented to Dagsavisen that his members “have been reasonably clear for several years that there has been a disharmony between society’s expectations and the resources that have been available,” adding that the fact that Sweden has seven such helicopters means that Norway “lies 10 years behind Swedens helicopter service.”

A former police chief in Oslo, Finn Abrahamsen, agreed, telling Dagsavisen that he felt the capital’s police district should have a minimum of two helicopters available at any one time in case one needs repairing, with the helicopters being big enough to carry large response units. He feels that the fact that no helicopter was used during the response to the Utøya shootings “is caused by limited funds,” suggesting that “the police have for many years had all too little money.” The cost of the helicopter currently available to Oslo police is NOK 40 million (USD 7.4 million) per year, according to Abrahamsen.

It has also become apparent that Oslo police “informally” [bullshit] asked the army for use of one of their military helicopters just 20 minutes before [!!!] the Utøya shootings began, but the helicopter was not in the air until after the attack took place. This was confirmed to Dagsavisen by Colonel Petter Lindqvist, who would nonetheless not disclose how long it had taken to get the helicopter into the air. When asked why it took so long for the military to respond, Oslo police chief of staff, Johan Fredriksen, told NRK that “they have a preparedness arrangement that means that they are not ready at all times with their resources,” adding that the military would have to explain those arrangements themselves “but it is how society is organized.” [Even more than an hour after the massive bombing of central Oslo and the government buildings, including the oil ministry?]

Chief of staff Fredriksen promised when speaking to TV2 that the issues around the readiness of the helicopter would be addressed in due course. A government commission will examine the response to 22 July, and is believed to be likely to publish their findings in a year.

[...]

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/04/ ... rutinized/
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Re: "Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

Postby DrVolin » Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:08 pm

Stickdog, just out of personal curiosity: What's the biggest organization you've been in charge of, and what is the worst emergency you've faced while in command (or its equivalent)?
all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

--Guns and Roses
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Re: "Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

Postby waugs » Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:29 pm

Lord Balto wrote:
waugs wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:
barracuda wrote:Do you have any kids? I wouldn't hang up from that conversation without asking a few questions and giving some reassurance. I doubt seriously that many parents would. LOL yourself.


I'm a parent. I would.


you'd hang up on your kid? why?


So you could call the police and save his life?



without asking questions and giving reassurance? to each his own, i guess. :shrug:
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Re: "Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

Postby lupercal » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:05 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
A former police chief in Oslo, Finn Abrahamsen, agreed, telling Dagsavisen that he felt the capital’s police district should have a minimum of two helicopters available at any one time in case one needs repairing, with the helicopters being big enough to carry large response units. He feels that the fact that no helicopter was used during the response to the Utøya shootings “is caused by limited funds,” suggesting that “the police have for many years had all too little money.” The cost of the helicopter currently available to Oslo police is NOK 40 million (USD 7.4 million) per year, according to Abrahamsen.

. . . And the winners of this week's crystal ball awards are:

Canadian_watcher wrote:could all of this simply be the classic problem, reaction, solution:

1. Problem: we don't have enough heavily armed, highly trained, available law enforcement in Norway..
2. Reaction: Please give us more police/special forces!
3. Solution: Due to public outcry in the wake of the Utoya massacre.....

just as simple as that?

Subject: "Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

Image

and:

Pierre d'Achoppement wrote:Another thing that strikes me as odd is that not one cellphone photo has been published. Hard to think what could be a reason behind that other than none were taken, but with so many cellphones these days it seems almost inevitable that no matter how horrible the situation someone''s gonna take a picture.

Subject: Huge explosion in Oslo

Image

nice balls guys..
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Re: "Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:44 am

DrVolin wrote:Stickdog, just out of personal curiosity: What's the biggest organization you've been in charge of, and what is the worst emergency you've faced while in command (or its equivalent)?

Thanks for being a needed voice of reason here, DrVolin.

Nothing could be more helpful than advancing an ever-ready, all-purpose excuse for any governmental incompetence or malfeasance in the face of any emergency at any time in any place.
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Re: "Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

Postby DrVolin » Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:35 am

Just genuine interest. You can PM if you like. This is a very interesting discussion, and I would like to know where you're coming from.
all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

--Guns and Roses
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Re: "Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

Postby Nordic » Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:06 pm

waugs wrote:
Lord Balto wrote:
waugs wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:
barracuda wrote:Do you have any kids? I wouldn't hang up from that conversation without asking a few questions and giving some reassurance. I doubt seriously that many parents would. LOL yourself.


I'm a parent. I would.


you'd hang up on your kid? why?


So you could call the police and save his life?



without asking questions and giving reassurance? to each his own, i guess. :shrug:



I'm with CW here. I'd say "get off the fucking phone, turn off the ringer, and RUN AND HIDE!!
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: "Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

Postby Burnt Hill » Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:34 pm

I dont know.
If my child is in danger, and we have a phone connection,
I am pretty sure I would want to maintain that connection as long as possible.
I may potentially gather information that could be helpful- like "he's been spotted on the north side,
get your ass on the southside!".
Though I sure as hell dont want to ever find out what I would do.
I just cant imagine hanging up.
Yes, I have kids, lots of 'em.
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Re: "Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

Postby RobinDaHood » Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:31 am

DrVolin wrote:Just genuine interest. You can PM if you like. This is a very interesting discussion, and I would like to know where you're coming from.

He answered on page 71 of the big thread...
My God, this thread has been thoroughly trashed.

For the record, I have never, ever browbeaten anyone of this thread to arrive at my own still evolving meta-analysis of this horror.

All of my regretful sarcasm and venom stem from the fact that I could not (and still cannot) comprehend how or why others were will going so far in defending the cops' indefensible delays and obvious lies -- merely to promote their own meta-analyses.

I could hardly care less whether any of you thinks this was a grand conspiracy or the work of an isolated wingnut. I'm pissed off about the cops' hugely delayed response to this horror, and I feel my righteous anger about their filicidal delay is more than justified.

He started with Righteous Indignation (the opposite of Rigorous Intuition) and it would appear that nothing has changed.
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Re: "Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

Postby MacCruiskeen » Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:34 pm

RobinDaHood wrote:
DrVolin wrote:Just genuine interest. You can PM if you like. This is a very interesting discussion, and I would like to know where you're coming from.

He answered on page 71 of the big thread...
My God, this thread has been thoroughly trashed.

For the record, I have never, ever browbeaten anyone of this thread to arrive at my own still evolving meta-analysis of this horror.

All of my regretful sarcasm and venom stem from the fact that I could not (and still cannot) comprehend how or why others were will going so far in defending the cops' indefensible delays and obvious lies -- merely to promote their own meta-analyses.

I could hardly care less whether any of you thinks this was a grand conspiracy or the work of an isolated wingnut. I'm pissed off about the cops' hugely delayed response to this horror, and I feel my righteous anger about their filicidal delay is more than justified.

He started with Righteous Indignation (the opposite of Rigorous Intuition) and it would appear that nothing has changed.


They are not opposites, and stickdog's indignation was entirely justified from the very start.

See the information already posted on page 2 of this thread, and at the top of this page, which people like you insist on studiously ignoring. I'm reposting it here for your convenience:

MacCruiskeen wrote:
For air transport Beredskapstroppen uses military Bell 412 SP [HELICOPTERS] from the RNoAF.

Image
CAPTION:Norwegian Bell 412SP helicopters taking part in the NATO exercise Strong Resolve 2002

For air transport Beredskapstroppen uses military Bell 412 SP [HELICOPTERS] from the RNoAF.[Royal Norwegian Air Force]


From the RNoAF [Royal Norwegian Air Force] Aircraft Inventory (here at Wiki), we learn that they have not only eighteen (in figures:18) Bell 412 SP helicopters in service, but also six (in figures: 6) Westland Lynx helicopters and twelve (in figures:12) Westland Sea King helicopters in addition to that.

That's thirty-six (in figures: 36) helicopters in total.

About the RNoAF's twelve (in figures: 12) Westland Sea King helicopters:



A Westland Sea King helicopter:

Image

[/quote]


MacCruiskeen wrote:
Utøya helicopter response scrutinized

August 4, 2011

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/04/ ... rutinized/

[...]

Many policemen who have spoken to TV2 have apparently said that a police helicopter could have made “an essential difference” and “stopped” Breivik. The leader of the police trade union (Politiets Fellesforbund, PF), Arne Johannessen, commented to Dagsavisen that his members “have been reasonably clear for several years that there has been a disharmony between society’s expectations and the resources that have been available,” adding that the fact that Sweden has seven such helicopters means that Norway “lies 10 years behind Swedens helicopter service.”

A former police chief in Oslo, Finn Abrahamsen, agreed, telling Dagsavisen that he felt the capital’s police district should have a minimum of two helicopters available at any one time in case one needs repairing, with the helicopters being big enough to carry large response units. He feels that the fact that no helicopter was used during the response to the Utøya shootings “is caused by limited funds,” suggesting that “the police have for many years had all too little money.” The cost of the helicopter currently available to Oslo police is NOK 40 million (USD 7.4 million) per year, according to Abrahamsen.

It has also become apparent that Oslo police “informally” [bullshit] asked the army for use of one of their military helicopters just 20 minutes before [!!!] the Utøya shootings began, but the helicopter was not in the air until after the attack took place. This was confirmed to Dagsavisen by Colonel Petter Lindqvist, who would nonetheless not disclose how long it had taken to get the helicopter into the air. When asked why it took so long for the military to respond, Oslo police chief of staff, Johan Fredriksen, told NRK that “they have a preparedness arrangement that means that they are not ready at all times with their resources,” adding that the military would have to explain those arrangements themselves “but it is how society is organized.” [Even more than an hour after the massive bombing of central Oslo and the government buildings, including the oil ministry?]

Chief of staff Fredriksen promised when speaking to TV2 that the issues around the readiness of the helicopter would be addressed in due course. A government commission will examine the response to 22 July, and is believed to be likely to publish their findings in a year.

[...]

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/04/ ... rutinized/
Last edited by MacCruiskeen on Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

Postby RobinDaHood » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:21 pm

Mac- I've been following most of both these threads and I'm still not getting it. In the repost ^^ you're still flogging the 36 choppers like it proves anything. I thought that number had been reasonably whittled down to around 6-7 (geographically close), no? Or do you feel that every helicopter available- in country- should have been brought to full readiness? Should they have been sent toward Oslo to assist? How many of those 36 would you have had in the air following the bombing?
According to Wikipedia, 6 RNoAF air stations operate the Bell 412 SP, the Westland Lynx and the Westland Sea King: Bodø, Banak, Ørland, Bardufoss, Rygge and Sola. Of these, Bodø, Banak, Bardufoss and Ørland can be written off immediately because of distance, all being in Northern Norway above Trondheim.

Then there are Sola and Rygge. Sola is 300 km from Oslo, and scrambling a helicopter from there would still take a lot of time even if one was ready to go immediately when Oslo requested it.

Rygge is about 60 km away: to me this means that a RNoAF helicopter could only come from Rygge in time. Norwegian Wikipedia says Rygge has six Bell 412 SPs and one Sea King.

This is still a fair number of helicopters, but considerably less than 36.

Dradin Kastell wrote all this on page three. Are we ever going forward?
What about the possibility that all the tier 1 responders were starting to stand down? How long after the bombing do you keep the SWAT Team and Helicopter crews at high alert? After an hour or so without anything else blowing up, wouldn't the whole thing basically have turned into a search and rescue op? With a heavy dose of cleanup? Bring in the forensic lab-coats and the structural engineers?
Wikipedia lists 123 car bombs in the last decade. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_car_bombings Of those, I counted 37 that were listed as multiple car bombs and only one other listing ('02 Mombasa- car bomb with SAM attack) that included another linked event. Of the 123, only 32 were not in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Pakistan. Besides Russia (their appearance on the list 2000-'03 is due to a very well known conflict), there were basically zero odds of this happening in a Western country, and after the initial bomb, slim odds of further violence, and no odds of a mass shooting.
I don't see going full Manhattan (haven't yet stood down) as any kind of appropriate response, so what is it? Within the context of the last decades' stats, the most interesting thing you've posted is the bit about the cops informally asking the army to send round a chopper 70 minutes after the bombing. Maybe they just wanted to sight-see? since there isn't much use for shooters at a crime scene.
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Re: "Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

Postby Peachtree Pam » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:03 am


http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/10/ ... -response/


New criticism of terror response

August 10, 2011

As the immediate mourning period comes to a close, various police agencies have been criticized in the Norwegian media for their response to the Oslo bombing and Utøya shootings, with new details emerging about boat problems, the lack of availability of a helicopter and a number of issues encountered in the post-crisis command structure.

Police response times to the shootings on Utøya island have already been heavily scrutinized, while senior officers have also responded to criticisms about the command structure following the Oslo bombing.

Police had already been criticized for their response time to the Utøya attacks. Authorities first received a message on the shootings at 17.24 on 22 July, arriving at the designated quay at 18.09 and arresting Breivik at 18.24, one hour and 19 minutes after the shooting began. Norway’s police intelligence chief has also been attacked for “lacking humility.”

Took ‘long route’
It has emerged that the police boat took a 3.64 kilometers route to Utøya, some 3 kilometers longer than the shortest crossing point (675 meters). As previously reported, the small rubber dinghy available to local police began to take in water shortly after setting off, and the police unit required the help of two privately-owned speedboats to make it to the island. Oslo police chief of staff Johan Fredriksen told Norwergian Broadcasting (NRK) that the unit set off from the more distant quay because it was suggested by the local police district in line with “normal practice.”

The head of the local police district around Utøya, Sissel Hammer, had previously told newspaper Dagsavisen that the stopping and switching of boats alone had cost the mission 10 minutes. Chief of staff Fredriksen described comments that a quicker route could have been taken as “speculation” when speaking to NRK, adding that “the optimal solution is seldom available and we must chose from what it possible.” He has referred such issues to the forthcoming commission into the handling of the terrorist attacks, which was announced by Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg shortly after the events. However, he described the police as “improvising in a very good way” when the original boat broke down.

Helicopter confusion
The fact that the one police helicopter was not used to access Utøya has also been under the spotlight. Chief of staff Fredriksen told broadcaster TV2 that the police are “very much in doubt” that the use of a helicopter would have made any difference. Nonetheless, some of newspaper Dagsavisen’s police sources say they have been prohibited from going on the record about their criticisms.

Police terror drills, carried out annually, have usually given the police helicopter, equipped with snipers, a central role in similar scenarios to those that actually took place at Utøya. On 22 July, the police were apparently unclear whether they could use the helicopter, with Fredriksen telling TV2 that at the time “it was ‘the health track’ that had the responsibility for this helicopter, and not the police.” Helicopter crew personnel reportedly began asking the police leadership if they were needed from just 15 minutes after the bombing in Oslo, but were told they were not. Only 33 minutes after Breivik was arrested on Utøya were they called into service, TV2 claims. It has previously been reported that many trained helicopter personnel were on leave during the attacks.

Communication problems
Oslo police have further admitted that aspects of their response systems did not work as planned during the attacks. The Utrykningsenheten (UEH), which consists of officers in ordinary service that have special crisis competencies, was not fully mobilized because its members did not receive messages from central command, with only those officers already in service immediately available. An overload of the police’s systems after the attack began meant that extra officers had to be phoned manually. This is blamed for the fact that the parliament buildings were not secured until one hour after the bomb went off in the government quarter, although chief of staff Fredriksen stated to NRK that “cutting edge” national emergency response units are based in the capital and were used during the attacks, meaning the UEH would have had a different role. Some UEH were already on duty in Oslo and utilized where necessary, Fredriksen confirmed.

Current police routines require each chief of police to communicate with other police districts or the army if they require assistance during a crisis. One former senior intelligence officer, Bernand Duncan Lyng, has suggested that a national police chief is appointed to manage future crises. Ståle Ulriksen of the Norwegian Institute of International Affairs also called for a command center with “the army, the police and other departments represented” when speaking to TV2. It has emerged that many of the command problems, particularly regarding inter-departmental communication, had been pointed out in previous terror drills going back to 2006. Chief of staff Fredriksen told NRK that the issue of information transfer “has been a challenge around the world with larger incidents” and “will be so in the future.”

Intelligence chief ‘lacks humility’
The Norwegian police intelligence unit (Politiets sikkerhetstjeneste, PST) has also been criticized for its work around the attacks. PST leader Janne Kristiansen had told newspaper Dagbladet just three days after the attacks that the general safety and security situation in Norway was good despite the terrorist events. A “lone wolf” like Breivik is what “security services fear most,” Kristiansen added. She also claimed in further media appearances claimed that the attacks could not have been stopped “even in the old East Germany.”

The leader of the Norwegian Bar Association’s public security committee, Arild Humlen, commented to Dagsavisen that it is “completely obvious that there is a weakness” in PST’s monitoring of far right extremism, adding that he “could not comprehend or understand” why better surveillance had not been in place. In particular, he highlighted Breivik’s ability to buy large quantities of potentially explosive fertilizers as “remarkable” and something that “shows that the PST leader does not have control of this area.” Kristiansen had previously told NRK that the organization could not legally place Breivik’s name on their watch list just because he had bought large amounts of fertilizer, stressing that they “had absolutely nothing on Breivik” because he had “lived unbelievably law-abidingly.” Terror researchers at both the Swedish Defense Research Agency and its Norwegian equivalent that spoke to NRK supported the PST’s view that the attacks were difficult to predict. Humlen was nonetheless unimpressed, stating that the organization should be more self-critical in the aftermath of the attacks.

Author and journalist Frank Rossavik also attacked Kristiansen for her media statements about Breivik and how the PST could not have stopped the situation, stating that “she is a good candidate for the Norwegian record for lacking humility.”

Prime Minister Stoltenberg and Minister of Justice Knut Storberget have told Dagsavisen that they plan to appoint the commission that will review the response to the Oslo bombing and Utøya shootings this week. Storberget stressed that it was too early and that there was not enough information yet to draw conclusions, saying “I am therefore surprised that a number of so-called experts are so definitively clear in their opinions.”



Another account of Chief of Staff Fredriksen's press conference today from vg.no



Image

Police deny that the use of a helicopter would have meant that the swat team would have arrived quicker to Utøya


It has been speculated that the police could have used the Sea King helicopter which was requisitioned from Rygge Air Force base and was sitting in Voldsløkka in the center of Oslo when news came of the shooting at Utøya.

At the press conference this afternoon Fredriksen underlined that the helicopter was requisitioned for an eventual mass evacuation of patients if the capacity of Oslo Hospital was over-powered. (sprengt) According to Chief of Staff for Oslo Police District Johan Fredriksen, the swat team was not aware of this helicopter (being in Oslo) when they got the news that there was shooting at Utøya.

At the same time he pointed out that it would take time to re-direct this helicopter from the wounded patients operation to delivering the swat team to the Utøya operation.



Did what was in his power

At the same time he denies that the police could have used its own helicopter to get the troops quicker to Utøya.

"The police helicopter is not a platform designed for dangerous processes. As a cutting edge tool to be used in a dangerous situation it is the military which has (this type of helicopter).

He answered as to whether or not lives could have been saved had the police handled the situation in another way:

"I feel we have done what was in our power to go forward in the best possible way. We were annoyed with the immediate comments at the time but we are open (to the view) that afterward points at which we could have done better (can be identified).

He underlines that the police accept the criticism of the operation but does not hide the fact that the criticism is a burden for the police and the relatives of the victims

"It is important that one realizes that to paint a picture that one could have been at Utøya in eight minutes is a false picture. One could absolutely not have done this. This is a myth that one must put aside. We could also not have landed a helicopter on Utøya. We must also, no matter what, have escaped by water", says Fredriksen.


Could have been delayed

Instead of arranging to get a boat at Utvika, which lies on the mainland about 700 meters away, the police drove to Storøya and took a boat there - 3,5 kilometers from Utøya. The police admit to NRK that this decision delayed the arrest of Breivik.

According to Fredriksen, it was the North Buskerud which took the decision that the police should launch their boat 3,5 kilometers from Utøya.

Police Chief Sissel Hammer in North Buskerud has Tuesday and Wednesday morning been unavailable for comments.

[quote]

In other news, Breivik planned to blow up Aftenposten at one point, along with other targets.
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