Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:32 pm

Sweejak wrote:On another level I want to throw this out about taking care of people who fall thru the cracks. The devil is in the details of course, but I'd bet that if we were able to designate where our tax money was spent that the wars would stop, health care wouldn't be such an issue, and nobody would be on the streets. Lastly it would put a big hole in all the ideological crap because don't think anyone wants to see his neighbor homeless, sick and in misery regardless of whether your a lib, dem, anarchist or whatever.


Its a good place to start, at some point ideology will probably come into it, but it seems so many discussions cut to the ideology with out actually thinking about the problem.

Your idea is good tho cos it appeals to people's ability to have compassion. Real compassion, which you get from opening your heart to people. Thats a great place to start, and I think part of Christianity's appeal was that in all the stories jesus is always (well frequently) exercising compassion and appealing to others to do the same.

Most people want to do good for something else besides themselves if you give them a chance.

Most of the conflict does come from deciding on the best way to do it.


(Without that conflict the people who predate and act in a parasitic manner would have a more difficult time. They profit from that conflict and certainly want no part of a solution to it.)
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:42 pm

Great article by the way.... thats a really useful reference. I think it might be worth investigating the range of "Fraternal Organisations" from the POV of being a social tool over a long time...

Tools are useful...

Fraternal orgs can serve power if their access is limited, but I can see how they could limit and challenge it too, if their was unrestricted access.

Social networking online seems to mirror the process a fair bit too.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby compared2what? » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:49 pm

23 wrote:Sure. Be happy to.

The beginning of the process to drastically scale down our imperialist military, and use the huge savings towards more humane purposes, is definitely Reason No. 1 for me.

Reason No. 2 is the restoration of our civil liberties.


Gotcha. I too would like to see those things happen.

President Paul can accomplish the former via executive mandate as Commander in Chief.


How? By which I mean: How will that executive mandate get past all the very real, very powerful, very entrenched obstacles that stand between his issuing it on a piece of paper and it becoming a reality?

For example, how would it get past the all-but-guaranteed failure and/or inability of congress either to enact the legislation or appropriate the funds delineating that process that you mention in your first sentence? Those being powers that the constitution quite clearly reserves for the legislative branch and withholds from the executive?

I mean, unless the judicial branch says otherwise, of course. But the Supreme Court would pretty much have to tear up the constitution and flush it down the toilet in order for them to say it.

In light of which, what's his plan for dealing with that, constitutionally or extra-constitutionally, as you understand it?

Because he would have to deal with it. One way or the other. In reality.

He can accomplish the latter as the top boss of all the federal agencies, including the FBI, CIA, DEA, et al.


But he wouldn't be the top boss of all the federal agencies, including the FBI, CIA, DEA, et al.

In fact, assuming that he was just the president and that the constitution was still in effect, it would be a massive and illegal abuse of power for him to act unilaterally as if he were.

By which I mean that under the law it would be. As a practical matter, he'd have a little more top-boss authority over some federal agencies than he would over others, all things being roughly equal to what they are now, I suppose. But I personally am very strongly opposed to any president having even as much top-boss authority over any of those agencies as the office-holders of my lifetime have had. It's an abuse of power. It's illegal. And it's unconstitutional, either literally or in spirit. IMO.

I definitely wouldn't be in favor of increasing that authority, therefore. Under any conditions, for any candidate. So I really couldn't support any president whose plan to get things done was contingent on his belief that his individual power was so far above both that of the republic as a whole and all of the various democratic institutions through which it's governed that he could just say jump and they'd jump. Because that would make him a dictator, not a president. Which would also make the United States a dictatorship and not a federal consitutional republic. Needless to say.

So basically, I have the same question as above: What do you understand the process whereby he's proposing to get all those federal agencies he co-administers with congress to skip to his beat to be, exactly?

If, in the 4 years that his term would last, he accomplished the initialization of the demilitarization of our foreign policy (to include the huge savings that that would incur) and restore our civil liberties... I'd be a little more hopeful for my daughter's future.

Not to mention our jails will be significantly less filled too, because the racist and unjust "war on drugs" will be made impotent.

4 short years... 3 significant accomplishments, at the very least... not a bad beginning for a much better future.


Well. If you can explain to me how he'd be able to do that in four years without a military coup d'etat, I'm down.

However, since (a) I myself can't imagine how he'd be able to do that in four years in any other way; and (b) there are a few indications that might just be the way a significant number of his supporters would like to see him do it, I really would need a pretty persuasive and reality-based explanation before I could be.

I mean "before I could be down." But that's really putting it mildly, truth be told. I might equally honestly say "before I could do anything about the prospect of a Ron Paul presidency other than ride through the streets shouting out warnings about at what unacceptably high-risk it had the potential to put my fellow citizens at the top of my voice." And with equal if not greater conviction, too.

There's no game that's worth that candle. Ever. And it's a very frightening possibility, to boot. So if you can point me to the game plan that you see and I don't, I'd really, really appreciate it.

What is it?
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Sweejak » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:52 pm

Joe Hillshoist wrote:
Sweejak wrote:On another level I want to throw this out about taking care of people who fall thru the cracks. The devil is in the details of course, but I'd bet that if we were able to designate where our tax money was spent that the wars would stop, health care wouldn't be such an issue, and nobody would be on the streets. Lastly it would put a big hole in all the ideological crap because don't think anyone wants to see his neighbor homeless, sick and in misery regardless of whether your a lib, dem, anarchist or whatever.


Its a good place to start, at some point ideology will probably come into it, but it seems so many discussions cut to the ideology with out actually thinking about the problem.

Your idea is good tho cos it appeals to people's ability to have compassion. Real compassion, which you get from opening your heart to people. Thats a great place to start, and I think part of Christianity's appeal was that in all the stories jesus is always (well frequently) exercising compassion and appealing to others to do the same.

Most people want to do good for something else besides themselves if you give them a chance.

Most of the conflict does come from deciding on the best way to do it.


(Without that conflict the people who predate and act in a parasitic manner would have a more difficult time. They profit from that conflict and certainly want no part of a solution to it.)


You spoke about something that everyone participates in, taxes is it. How terribly democratic for the people to have a voice in where those taxes actually go!
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby compared2what? » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:55 pm

Nordic wrote:
compared2what? wrote:Sorry. I noticed another unaddressed previously asked question.

What will all those troops be doing for a living once they're back where we want them, between sea and shining sea?
____________



I addressed the question for you, but you threw it off by saying "it's not something Ron Paul talks about".

Now you don't seem to care if it's about what Ron Paul talks about, you seem to want to know what specific posters want to do, other than myself, which leads me to think that you're being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

Taking the money we're now wasting on "military" and the corporate welfare that goes with it, which is, actually, a very perverse and evil form of what everybody calls "socialism" (I grew up in the military, and it's pure socialism), and using it to invest and create new industries, new economies, and completely change the face of the developed world would answer your question as to "HOW".


I again agree. Because I did not throw it off. I agreed with you.

I also added the on-topic point was that if you want to see that happen, you'd be shooting yourself in the foot by voting for Ron Paul. And that was because you would be.

The things that you and I agree would be salutary are not a part of his agenda. For which you really can't blame me, Nordic, be fair. It's his agenda, not mine.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby compared2what? » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:05 pm

elfismiles wrote:Retrain for helping rather than hurting/killing.

Put them to work digging ditches. Fixing infrastructure, that sort of thing.

Get them to train people in the proper and safe use of guns so that their military duties can roll back to a well regulated militia.

"What will all those loggers do if we stop using so much paper?

Umm ... get a different job?"

FREE REEDUCATION FOR ALL. :D

I know, simplistic but ...


....fiendishly effective!

I agree with you.

Ron Paul does not advocate those things. He sidesteps them by tossing that particular hot potato to the states. As if state-level government was somehow going to suddenly become immune to corruption and uninterested in dallying with corporate power and its bribes 'n' treats.

elfi, come on. You live in Texas. On what is your faith in the purity of state-level government based???


I say that with :lovehearts:, btw. For you and for the great state of Texas both. You can't argue with history, though.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Sweejak » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:17 pm

Nobody thinks state power is pure. The only advantage to having the states have a say so is that you generally know exactly where they live. That, and I would imagine with more state power one would have a nice variety to choose from.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby compared2what? » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:22 pm

Sweejak wrote:On another level I want to throw this out about taking care of people who fall thru the cracks. The devil is in the details of course, but I'd bet that if we were able to designate where our tax money was spent that the wars would stop, health care wouldn't be such an issue, and nobody would be on the streets. Lastly it would put a big hole in all the ideological crap because don't think anyone wants to see his neighbor homeless, sick and in misery regardless of whether your a lib, dem, anarchist or whatever.


Totally, totally applaud and agree with this. I didn't see it before, having overridden that little "but-wait-there's-more" message and then immediately fallen too far behind ever to catch up. Act locally. Unite with others for the common good. Under any ideological label you believe in.

Just as long as it's not: "We believe in giving [X] the power to make all decisions for us and the arms to enforce them. Because we trust [X]. So we don't need any guarantees."

Because that's never worked out well for anyone.

On edit: gave your username the close-quote that is its due.
Last edited by compared2what? on Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Sweejak » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:24 pm

Ah, I don't have the link for the Black Hospital thing but here is an interview with a Professor Beito who is referenced in the libertarian health care article.
Check it out:
http://antiwar.com/radio/2007/04/25/david-beito/
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:26 pm

Sweejak wrote:
You spoke about something that everyone participates in, taxes is it. How terribly democratic for the people to have a voice in where those taxes actually go!


I'm glad you brought that up, cos when I was reading the article one of the ways I was seeing it was as an example the state trying to create and maintain a monopoly on taxation.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Sweejak » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:27 pm

compared2what? wrote:[quote="Sweejak]On another level I want to throw this out about taking care of people who fall thru the cracks. The devil is in the details of course, but I'd bet that if we were able to designate where our tax money was spent that the wars would stop, health care wouldn't be such an issue, and nobody would be on the streets. Lastly it would put a big hole in all the ideological crap because don't think anyone wants to see his neighbor homeless, sick and in misery regardless of whether your a lib, dem, anarchist or whatever.[/quote]

Totally, totally applaud and agree with this. I didn't see it before, having overridden that little "but-wait-there's-more" message and then immediately fallen too far behind ever to catch up. Act locally. Unite with others for the common good. Under any ideological label you believe in.

Just as long as it's not: "We believe in giving [X] the power to make all decisions for us and the arms to enforce them. Because we trust [X]. So we don't need any guarantees."

Because that's never worked out well for anyone.[/quote][/quote]


I think we have a coalition!
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby compared2what? » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:31 pm

Sweejak wrote:Nobody thinks state power is pure. The only advantage to having the states have a say so is that you generally know exactly where they live. That, and I would imagine with more state power one would have a nice variety to choose from.


If you could keep the corporate interests out, yes. It takes the people united to bar the door to them, though. No individual leader nor any group of individual leaders will ever work for the people if the people don't hold him, her or them accountable for the failure to do so.

Because very, very few individuals have the strength of character to choose doing hard work that no one's tasked them with over easy work that pays better. That doesn't make them evil. It just makes them human. And no one does being human too well without the support of people, you know? I mean, that's a basic human need.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby compared2what? » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:35 pm

Sweejak wrote:
compared2what? wrote:[quote="Sweejak]On another level I want to throw this out about taking care of people who fall thru the cracks. The devil is in the details of course, but I'd bet that if we were able to designate where our tax money was spent that the wars would stop, health care wouldn't be such an issue, and nobody would be on the streets. Lastly it would put a big hole in all the ideological crap because don't think anyone wants to see his neighbor homeless, sick and in misery regardless of whether your a lib, dem, anarchist or whatever.[/quote]

Totally, totally applaud and agree with this. I didn't see it before, having overridden that little "but-wait-there's-more" message and then immediately fallen too far behind ever to catch up. Act locally. Unite with others for the common good. Under any ideological label you believe in.

Just as long as it's not: "We believe in giving [X] the power to make all decisions for us and the arms to enforce them. Because we trust [X]. So we don't need any guarantees."

Because that's never worked out well for anyone.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

I think we have a coalition![/quote]


Viva la rasa! :D

I mean: Really? That's great! I propose that we all regard ourselves and each other as co-top-bosses. Because I don't want any co-top-boss besides you guys.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby compared2what? » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:38 am

elfismiles wrote:C2W, why can't we at least start with ending the military occupations and bases around the world?


I missed this one, my apologies again. We can. We just can't pretend that it won't have all the consequences that it will have. Assuming that we hope to benefit from doing it.

And regarding Ron Paul's investments... your helpful info-trawl has gotten me thinkin.

Now I wanna see Cynthia McKinney's, Mr. Kucinich's and Mike Gravel's money trails as they were the Dems I favored.


Personal financial disclosures for all (except maybe Gravel, but probably him too) can be found here. Or at the Clerk of the House's office, if you happen to be standing right next to it.

Also, though that site's not so easy to navigate, if you persist, you can get to some donor and campaign finance figures there, too.

More of which you can find here. And even more of which you can find at both fec.gov and irs.gov, although they are truly nightmares to plow through unless you know what you're looking for.

I've never had much luck with it, but fwiw, there's a state-level campaign-finance aggregator that doesn't really have anything wrong with it except for my lack of luck here.

For stuff like incorporation, occupational licensing, and maybe property transfer records -- ie, potential verification of or additional info regarding the stuff they self-reported -- state and county websites vary wrt how much is available online and how reliable it is. But they're always worth a shot.

That's at least a good start in terms of what's available free of charge. There's also campaignmoney.com, but they have almost everything you really want to know behind a pay-wall.

And every single United States citizen should have free access to most of the Lexis-Nexis database, imo. Those are public fucking records. Or, you know. The ones that are public fucking records are, at least. Moot point, either way, though. Sadly.

But I definitely highly recommend scratching that itch. It gets to be much more fun than you might think once you get past having no clue what the hell you're looking at, in my experience. And it's not that difficult to get past that point, really. Mostly, you just have to ask yourself questions and then go find the answers if you can. If you can't, call or write to a big-shot expert and ask him or her.

They usually like that, if you ask politely. It helps to remind them that they're big shots. That can't hurt anyone as long as you're secure enough in your identity as the unacknowledged co-top-boss of the country to feel a little mild pity for them because they aren't. Poor little big-shot things.

:)
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby 23 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:46 am

Notice any similarities?

The financial institution is too big to fail.

The military is too big and widespread to drastically dismantle.

"Oh, if we did that, the consequences might be too severe."

So we allow Goliath to stand, because we fear the price that accompanies such an effort.

Which makes Goliath very happy.

Where is the courage of David, today, in a land that is subjugated by several Goliaths?

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