Theophobia

[wintler2]

How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it.

Problems arise immediately one attempts to render the experience of the divine into language and communicate it. And disaster if the experience is codified into Beliefs. We all get very attached to our always limited, too often ego-driven understanding of the divine, one set of fossilised beliefs disagrees with another (completely inevitably, one of gods little jokes), presto war between the 'strong' Believers. It is because experience of the divine is so personal that we can not codify it or make any rules about it. And that includes theophilia not getting any special status.

[Canadian_watcher]

On edit: Disclaimer on the word "bitch". No misogyny intended.

none perceived.

[Canadian_watcher]

How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it.

Problems arise immediately one attempts to render the experience of the divine into language and communicate it. And disaster if the experience is codified into Beliefs. We all get very attached to our always limited, too often ego-driven understanding of the divine, one set of fossilised beliefs disagrees with another (completely inevitably, one of gods little jokes), presto war between the 'strong' Believers. It is because experience of the divine is so personal that we can not codify it or make any rules about it. And that includes theophilia not getting any special status.

I agree - it is something that shouldn't have rules, that's for sure. And if one is too attached one does get all bent out of shape by challenges ...

not sure what you mean by the last sentence though...

[wintler2]

..not sure what you mean by the last sentence though...

'And that includes theophilia not getting any special status.'

It means that i can't claim i am certain about much of anything because of my love of god or due to my experience of the divine - that (to me) is belief. Belief is the ego commandeering the memory of the rightness/certainty/oneness that comes from experience of the divine, by inventing (or pledging to a pre-existing) set of truth or rules. All we can Know is that we don't know, which is why attention (/observation/meditation/prayer) and humble action (=experiment/goodworks) are features of some (all genuine, imho) spiritual practices. To contrast, Belief usually says I Know (I am right) therefore those with different beliefs are wrong/stupid/evil. None of us Know God in any communicable way, all we can do is swap fragmentary notes, and insist on nothing.

[American Dream]

What makes the difference?

Creation.

I'm not sure I get you answer, if the question is :

I wonder how this happens without being attached to some kind of bullshit: What makes the difference?

In response to:

How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it.

You are experiencing the creational bullshit as I type this NOW. When I hit SEND you WILL read (Experience) IT (the bullshit). What your intentions (What makes you, well, you) decide to DO with THAT bullshit is up to you to act out (type a Way). And it will be made manifest for all to experience (bullshit). That's creation.

Read the news today? Free will is a bitch, let me tell you.

Get IT? I hope so. Then give It...

On edit: Disclaimer on the word "bitch". No misogyny intended.

Solipsism or the Eye of the Beholder?

[barracuda]

I'm sure there's better out there, once again I'm not trying to find the 'smoking gun' as it were, but came across this tonight and thought I'd post.

Time Magazine , 2007 Einstein & Faith
reprinted from Einstein by Walter Isaacson. © 2007 by Walter Isaacson.

But throughout his life, Einstein was consistent in rejecting the charge that he was an atheist. "There are people who say there is no God," he told a friend. "But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." And unlike Sigmund Freud or Bertrand Russell or George Bernard Shaw, Einstein never felt the urge to denigrate those who believed in God; instead, he tended to denigrate atheists. "What separates me from most so-called atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos," he explained.

In fact, Einstein tended to be more critical of debunkers, who seemed to lack humility or a sense of awe, than of the faithful. "The fanatical atheists," he wrote in a letter, "are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who--in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses'-- cannot hear the music of the spheres."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1607298-1,00.html

As I said upthread, Einstein had a complex relationship with his faith. But is faith, in and of it self, commendable? It doesn't seem so. Having faith is like having a nose. Except for a very unfortunate few, everyone has a nose, but we don't praise a person in some way for this attainment. And like your nose, your faith is really only a virtue with regards to the object of its attentions. People have faith in their government, people had faith in Jim Jones, people had faith in Rajneesh, most people have faith that they'll will awake in the morning. So it makes little sense to offer my respect and admiration for the human condition of faith for its own sake divorced from a religion or purpose. This was why I couldn't understand your insistence upon examining faith without religion, or even understand, really, what you meant by a "person of faith" while keeping it separate from its object of devotion.

It strikes me that you may be interested less in faith per se than in certain types or objects of faith.

And fortunately, now it appears we're onto religion in the course of our discussion:

How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it.

Not my words, but, they do speak for me.

Or at least a religious "feeling", which is different from religion, presumably.

I didn't say I had faith in a religion. I said I had faith. Faith that my thoughts and actions do impact the world.

we're getting in to religion again and I'm talking about faith.

not RELIGION, but FAITH

So I sort of look at your "religious feeling" quote as having something to do with an appreciation of the wonder of the universe, maybe? It's still somewhat vague. If it ain't religion, it's pretty durn close, though. Anyway, here's another quote from good old Albert, which reflects a bit some of wintler's thoughts above:

A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never tolerant, and he is unable to be tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not successful. However, hatred leads to persecution when the might of the majority is behind it.

[Project Willow]

But is faith, in and of it self, commendable? It doesn't seem so. Having faith is like having a nose. Except for a very unfortunate few, everyone has a nose, but we don't praise a person in some way for this attainment. And like your nose, your faith is really only a virtue with regards to the object of its attentions.

But, what if one has a really, really cute nose? j/k.

I consider faith, as more narrowly defined in terms of religious or spiritual belief, to be a tool for individuals to pick up or reject to varying degrees according to their own needs. It can also be a tool for those who wish to exercise power over through manipulation and possibly everything in between that and benevolent care, yet it is still a tool. I was under the impression that around here we generally acknowledge that tools aren't the impetus of wrong doing. Tools may serve any number of roles in a process, but they don't sit in the seat of genesis.

So, after 18 pages here, can we get down to delineating exactly what aspects of the process of holding a faith, as opposed to any other possible stance or philosophy of life, by their very nature, might represent an inherent potential for leading to wrong doing?

This entire conversation is reminding me of the useless and distracting focus on the belief systems of satanic cults when it's the crimes they commit that should garner all attention. The philosophical framework rationalizes and perhaps organizes the activity, but it doesn't define it, nor is it requisite.

Getting back to the OP, specifically what perceived personal or intellectual failing lies at the root of theophobia if indeed it exists as described? Briefly, and I'd like to go into this in further detail later, I'd say that it has to do with suspicions about how much one relies on external vs. internal sources in assessments of right and wrong.

[justdrew]

But is faith, in and of it self, commendable? It doesn't seem so. Having faith is like having a nose. Except for a very unfortunate few, everyone has a nose, but we don't praise a person in some way for this attainment. And like your nose, your faith is really only a virtue with regards to the object of its attentions.

not even a nose, isn't it more like having a particular Silly Walk all ones own, taught by parents or other situations.


oh, and... EVERY SINGLE THING is "on faith" to one degree or another, it's a spectrum, an isolated example of which is characterized by certain variable properties.

[barracuda]

In answer to the question:

How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology?

I might be tempted to begin with these:







...and see how it goes. Especially Parliament. It seems to always do the trick.

But let's get back on topic:

[Stephen Morgan]

faith is one thing, an organization that enforce such as this is another:

Did you see the article about Gallileo in the most recent Fortean Times? Rather makes a mockery of the claim that he was a rationalist.

[justdrew]

faith is one thing, an organization that enforce such as this is another:

Did you see the article about Gallileo in the most recent Fortean Times? Rather makes a mockery of the claim that he was a rationalist.

well, I'm sure he was doing the best he could at the time.

(no I haven't seen it, been problematic keeping up with FT lately, I may subscribe, but they don't print a US edition anymore so it's magazine import rates, almost 20 bucks an issue IIRC)

[vanlose kid]

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[vanlose kid]

Well the meaning that I make of it is that your faith will divide you from those of a different faith.

10And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Speak against my person, and you will be forgiven. Speak against my faith and you will not.

that's one interpretation. and of course there's also the question of to what use is the interpretation is put.

here's another.



in context.

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[Canadian_watcher]

But is faith, in and of it self, commendable? It doesn't seem so. Having faith is like having a nose. Except for a very unfortunate few, everyone has a nose, but we don't praise a person in some way for this attainment.

We do notice when someone is missing a nose though. It is something that, like you said, the unfortunate few don't have.

And like your nose, your faith is really only a virtue with regards to the object of its attentions. People have faith in their government, people had faith Jim Jones, people had faith in Rajneesh, most people have faith that they'll will awake in the morning. So it makes little sense to offer my respect and admiration for the human condition of faith for its own sake divorced from a religion or purpose. This was why I couldn't understand your insistence upon examining faith without religion, or even understand, really, what you meant by a "person of faith" while keeping it separate from its object of devotion.

I can understand what you're saying, and it's a fair point. Whatever someone has faith in it can be misguided, of course.

As to the charge that my type of faith isn't religious, well, it isn't attached to a religion but I think it can be fairly categorized as spiritual.

I did explain that I believe, for example, that "Evil" and "Good" are forces.. real forces and unstoppable. I don't think of them necessarily as embodied, although my personal experience tells me that Evil can communicate directly to us. Probably Good can too, but I've not had the pleasure except through what I feel are mini-miracles (of timing, of chance). I believe that all of us contribute to the one or the other with our thoughts and actions - mostly through our success or failure at being true to our inner selves, our real selves. I do practice prayer, although not ritualistically. Isn't this more like a religious faith than those you are comparing it to?

It strikes me that you may be interested less in faith per se than in certain types or objects of faith.

No, that isn't the case.

And fortunately, now it appears we're onto religion in the course of our discussion:

How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it.

Not my words, but, they do speak for me.

Or at least a religious "feeling", which is different from religion, presumably.

well it *is* different. Religion is to faith as school is to knowledge.

So I sort of look at your "religious feeling" quote as having something to do with an appreciation of the wonder of the universe, maybe? It's still somewhat vague. If it ain't religion, it's pretty durn close, though.

So it is completely unlike religion or is it religion? First you were saying that I seemed to lack a religious component to my faith and now your charge is that I am, in fact, religious. And by the way, I should state for the record that I have no problem *not* prejudging religious people.

A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never tolerant, and he is unable to be tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not successful. However, hatred leads to persecution when the might of the majority is behind it.

Right, that was in a letter to a Rabbi, I believe - someone who was clearly devoted to the dogma of a religion. Could Einstein have written the same letter to someone he observed that was so convinced of the truth of their scientific arguments that they had become intolerant of differences of opinion on the matter?

[vanlose kid]

After bein' 25, you know, just trying to survive in the world
'Bout to have a little boy or baby girl, who knows?
Anyway, just when you start getting' that little age
And experience to you
You start thinkin' about stuff, tryin' to make the right moves
So bust it out, this is what I was thinkin', check it

Yo, the education of the Lon-chicka-Lonnie Lynn
Began, began with time
Bein' my bloodline is one with the divine
In time brotha, you will discover the light
Some say that God is black and the devil's white
Well, the devil is wrong and God is what's right

I fight with myself in the ring of doubt and fear
The rain ain't gone but I can still see clear
As a child, given religion with no answer to why
Just told believe in Jesus 'cuz for me he did die

Curiosity killed the catechism
Understanding and wisdom became the rhythm that I played to
And became a slave to master self
A rich man is one with knowledge, happiness and his health

My mind had dealt with the books of Zen, Tao the lessons
Koran and the Bible, to me they all vital
And got truth within 'em, gotta read them boys
You just can't skim 'em, different branches of belief

But one root that stem 'em
But people of the venom try to trim 'em
And use religion as an emblem
When it should be a natural way of life
Who am I or they to say to whom you pray ain't right

That's who got you doin' right and got you this far
Whether you say, "In Jesus name", or, "Al hum du'Allah"
Long as you know it's a bein' that's supreme to you
You let that show towards others in the things you do

'Cuz when the trumpets blowin', 24 elders surround the throne
Only 144,000 gon get home
Only 144,000 gon get home
Only 144,000 gon get it, baby

I've lived and I've learned
I have taken and I've earned
I have laughed, I've cried
I have failed and I have tried
Sunshine, pouring rain
Found joy through all my pain
I just wanna be happy with being me

Let me voice my concern
So many of my fellow brothers have given themselves a title
That their actions didn't earn
Our ignorance is in the same breath as our innocence
Subconsciously, seeking to find

[ From: http://www.metrolyrics.com/god-gaining- ... ommon.html ]

An impressionable mind to convince

I've finally come to the realization
Why black people in the worse place
'Cuz it's hard to correct yourself when you don't know
Who you are in the first place , so I try to find the clue in you
But evidently, white folks know more black history than we do

Why're we bein' lied to?
I ain't know our history was purposely hidden
Damn, somethin' in me wanna know who I am
So I began my search, my journey started in church
It gave my heartache relief when I started to understand belief
Hustlin' was like a gift spent my share of time in the streets

Taught me survival from this evil I'm just gonna have to deal with
And I felt like a fool when I tried to learn it in school
It almost seemed like a rehearsal when the only
Science and math are universal

Takin' elder advice, read the Bible, the Koran
Searched scrolls from the Hebrew Israelites
Hold on, this ain't right, Jesus wasn't white
Some leads were granted with insight

And it's all in the plan, but it took me some time to overstand
He still created with the imperfection of man
So, with followin' I disagree
By no means have I forgotten or forgiven
What's been done to me but
I do know the devil ain't no white man, the devil's a spiritual mind

That's color blind, there's evil white folk and evil niggas
You gon surely find there's no positivity without negativity
But one side you gonna have to choose
Any chance to speak I refuse to misuse

So how can you call yourself God
When you let a worldly possession
Become an obsession and the way you write your rhymes
And can't follow your lesson

If a seed's sown, you make sure it's known
You make sure it's grown
If you God, then save your own, don't mentally enslave your own
If you God, then save your own, don't mentally enslave your own
If you God, then save your own, don't mentally enslave your own

Well, I've lived and I've learned
I've taken and I've earned
I have laughed, I have cried
I failed and I have tried
Sunshine, pourin' rain
I found joy through my pain
Just wanna be happy, bein' me, bein' me

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