Libya, Syria And Now Ukraine - Color Revolution By Force

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Re: Libya, Syria And Now Ukraine - Color Revolution By Force

Postby American Dream » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:03 am

stefano » Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:10 am wrote:Not all of this thread is propaganda AD, and NATO's social/crowdsourcing tactics are pretty interesting reading. Most readers will know what ITAR-TASS is; if you don't think so it might be helpful to point it out, and say what precisely in a story, like about those shale gas fields, seems unlikely to you. There is a thread called 'let's talk intelligently about Ukraine', which is as deep and thoughtful as anything you're going to find on here. It's cool to see you post an opinion and I'd be happy to see more of a conversation on there, even though this isn't a subject on which I have a lot to contribute.


I recognize that this thread is not all the same propaganda by any means- and I'm certainly not against reading ITAR-TASS, PressTV, RT propaganda etc., nor against reading state propaganda per se, nor propaganda sponsored by any particular state. It is also true that I haven't read the bulk of this thread recently- if ever- so perhaps I misunderstand its content somewhat.

As one might gather from my comments, I'm dubious of Putin's politics and of the agenda of the Russian State in general, and thought this thread tends to conflate resistance to the neo-Liberal agenda and Uncle Sam/NATO etc. with strong and unconditional support for Putin and the Russian Government. At the very least, it does contain propaganda from that side, with no critical commentary. Which is an important thing to notice, at the very least.
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Re: Libya, Syria And Now Ukraine - Color Revolution By Force

Postby Sounder » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:40 am

AD, if you are 'dubious' of Russian claims, that is fine. But to 'say' you are dubious without adding specifics, indicates that you are operating as a voice of authority, rather than as a critical commentator.

Overall, this thread strikes me as extremely bizarre. Isn't the better perspective to solidly reject Russian expansionism, just as we should reject machinations towards global hegemony by the U.S. and its allies in NATO and/or the EU, etc.?


Ah, the delicious irony of a person complaining about (a perceived) uncritical acceptance of Russian propaganda, while at the same time putting forward the State dept. line that Russia has ‘expansionist’ ambitions, (as if they started this shitfest.)

Can an example of Russian expansionism even be identified? I mean, American expansionism can be seen through its hundreds of military installations strewn all round the world.

In other words, why support and (uncritically) perpetuate so much unnuanced propaganda coming from forces in favor of Putin and the Russian State? Isn't there a much more thoughtful perspective that should be supported instead?


Can someone make something be true simply because they said it? (This is all unnuanced propaganda.)

At the very least, it does contain propaganda from that side, with no critical commentary. Which is an important thing to notice, at the very least.


Feel free to produce some critical commentary

It seems reasonable for the critical commentary to be directed more toward the people (fascists) that are bombing civilians in Eastern Ukraine. To cry for the folk being so massacred is not to ‘fall’ for Putins propaganda, whereas to cry for the instigators and expansionist murderers is certainly to ‘fall’ for the propaganda.

And yes, that would be the propaganda of Western exceptionalism.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Libya, Syria And Now Ukraine - Color Revolution By Force

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:12 am

American Dream » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:03 am wrote:I'm dubious of Putin's politics and of the agenda of the Russian State in general, and thought this thread tends to conflate resistance to the neo-Liberal agenda and Uncle Sam/NATO etc. with strong and unconditional support for Putin and the Russian Government.


Gotta hand it to you, that is probably the most polite and oblique way to tell us we're dumb I've ever seen.

Looking forward to your "deeper and more thoughtful politics," although I am a bit suspicious that it will consist of articles you've already appended to other threads.
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Re: Libya, Syria And Now Ukraine - Color Revolution By Force

Postby American Dream » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:51 am

It is true that I feel much more in support of Jack's position in the other thread. It's not true that I'm putting a broad brush label of "dumb" on everyone at R.I. For the (sincere) followers of conspiracy beliefs which I consider to be really 'off', I see a susceptibility to manipulative and/or totalizing conspiracy narratives not grounded in thoughtful politics, nor a well-considered analysis of the overall situation.

I will not go further down this road- for obvious reasons- but I actually have a strong suspicion that the Russian State has launched a major psy-ops mission targeting the conspiracy community in the English-speaking world, just as the Israeli State likely has afoot. How this compares to the United States and the U.K.'s programs in these areas is beyond my ability to speculate but, assuming this is true: Who gets these jobs?, How does their work unfold?, What is their overall agenda?, etc.

Either way, we certainly know that there are various state-sponsored media initiatives such as PressTV and RT often present really useful news reports but should be taken with several grains of salt, just as the "mainstream" press in the West should be.

Bottom line though, and most important point: I think Putin is bad news, that he is articulating an ugly and misguided politics which is nowhere near the kind of politics I would personally support. I do feel that the neo-Liberal methods of regime change that western "democracies" collaborate on deserve widespread exposure- very much including how this overlaps to the pacifist side of the non-profit industrial complex. I do not feel that we therefore need to endorse in any way the politics of a Gadaffi, Assad or a Putin, all of whom have various levels of stink around them when considered from a Deep Politics perspective.

The flashpoint issue for me here- the reason for expressing a criticism of what I did or did not see in the thread- is Putin. He is not a good guy.
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Re: Libya, Syria And Now Ukraine - Color Revolution By Force

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:59 am

True, and I guess that's a matter of RI's Supercontext.

We've had so many threads on Putin malfeasance and mendacity I suspect a lot of us have it internalized.

The primarily Western membership here naturally tend to focus on domestic dynamics rather than examining the nightmare of contemporary Russia in any detail.
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Re: Libya, Syria And Now Ukraine - Color Revolution By Force

Postby American Dream » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:09 am

Wombaticus Rex » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:59 am wrote:True, and I guess that's a matter of RI's Supercontext.

We've had so many threads on Putin malfeasance and mendacity I suspect a lot of us have it internalized.

The primarily Western membership here naturally tend to focus on domestic dynamics rather than examining the nightmare of contemporary Russia in any detail.


Given the likelihood of state-sponsored psyops acivity targeting the conspiracy milieu, isn't it likely that various players want to recruit armies of unpaid info warriors, as well as the paid ones?

That is why I think elaborating a position that is critical of Putin as well as Obama- and more importantly, the neo-Imperial hierarchies they represent- is incredibly important...
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Re: Libya, Syria And Now Ukraine - Color Revolution By Force

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:15 am

Certainly, but I think one of the real values of RI is that we can operate without having to worry about our "messaging" since this is, for better or worse, not an activist community.

There are certainly activists here, but we're not exactly "unpaid info warriors" for any cause (or coven).

As it stands, this thread is about three consecutive US financed and directed operations to destabilize three countries we don't even share a continent with. I'm wary of RT, too -- and frankly, seldom ever even read the RT material posted here -- but I don't think it indicates some RI-culture lack of nuance on our part that it is being posted here.
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Re: Libya, Syria And Now Ukraine - Color Revolution By Force

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:24 am

I think you worry too much AD......do you have family history you can look back on for perspective?
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Libya, Syria And Now Ukraine - Color Revolution By Force

Postby American Dream » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:28 am

Wombaticus Rex » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:15 am wrote:Certainly, but I think one of the real values of RI is that we can operate without having to worry about our "messaging" since this is, for better or worse, not an activist community.

There are certainly activists here, but we're not exactly "unpaid info warriors" for any cause (or coven).

As it stands, this thread is about three consecutive US financed and directed operations to destabilize three countries we don't even share a continent with. I'm wary of RT, too -- and frankly, seldom ever even read the RT material posted here -- but I don't think it indicates some RI-culture lack of nuance on our part that it is being posted here.


I'd say that we should neither underestimate nor overestimate our importance here. To a significant degree, yeah, this is a preaching to the choir situation but I know conspiracy culture is powerful in the U.S.- just look at Glen Beck and the Tea Party, for example. So, what we do matters- or should matter- to the battle-hardened infowar undergrounds of the world.

Let's not get played.
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Re: Libya, Syria And Now Ukraine - Color Revolution By Force

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:32 am

nothing you do will affect anything but yourself ..you are exactly where god wanted you to be placed just take care of yourself and your loved ones in the present..stay in the present..the world is just too damn big to worry about


spirit is something that no one destroys
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Libya, Syria And Now Ukraine - Color Revolution By Force

Postby American Dream » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:40 am

seemslikeadream » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:32 am wrote:nothing you do will affect anything but yourself ..you are exactly where god wanted you to be placed just take care of yourself and your loved ones in the present..stay in the present..the world is just too damn big to worry about


spirit is something that no one destroys


I think there's a big place for personal awareness and personal change but I think that focused social consciousness supporting a social change praxis that gets to the roots of big institutions like Patriarchy, Capitalism, Hierarchy, White Supremacy etc., is essential.
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Re: Libya, Syria And Now Ukraine - Color Revolution By Force

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:45 am

you're always thinking to much AD...there's only so much one can do ...and that is to live your life in the present...we can not take on the world...we have to be able to live in the world one is placed in ..it's fine to know about that stuff.. Patriarchy, Capitalism, Hierarchy, White Supremacy but if you dwell on it you will waste your own special spirit your own special time on earth
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Libya, Syria And Now Ukraine - Color Revolution By Force

Postby conniption » Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:48 pm

Club Orlov

Tuesday, July 29, 2014

Saving Face

Image

The Americans are finding out the hard way that a fact-free zone is not a comfortable place to inhabit. The initial knee-jerk allegations, voiced by Obama, by the screechy UN representative Samantha Power, by John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and any number of talking heads, were that the downing of flight MH17 was all Putin's fault. These were swiftly followed by a complete and utter lack of official evidence of any Russian involvement but lots of strange, unexplained coincidences pointing to Ukrainian and American involvement. These were, in turn, followed by an uncharacteristically frank admission from US intelligence that there is no proof of Russian involvement. The newly installed Ukrainian oligarch-turned-president Poroshenko (code-name “Piglet”) switched from claiming that he had proof of Russian complicity to being very very quiet. Incompetently concocted fake “evidence” of this and that continues to appear on social media sites, only to be swiftly disproved. Once disproved, the fake evidence vanishes, only to be replaced by more of the same. The latest fake is of Russian artillery bombardment from across the border. All of this has added up to quite an awkward situation for the Americans. Barefaced lying may be fun and profitable, but it does not provide a solid foundation for foreign policy. Nobody wants to go down in history for blowing up the world over some fake Youtube videos.

The list of questions that demand answers is quite extensive. Why did the Ukrainians suddenly choose to activate their Buk M1 air defense system, with several rocket batteries and a radar, in Donetsk region, on the day of the crash? What was the Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 fighter jet (attested by numerous eye-witnesses) doing trailing after the Boeing? Why did Ukrainian air traffic control in Dnepropetrovsk redirect the flight to fly at a lower altitude and over the war zone? What were all those foreigners doing in the air traffic control center in Dnepropetrovsk right after the crash, and what happened to the flight control records they confiscated? What was the experimental US spy satellite doing flying over that exact spot at that exact moment? By the way, was anything interesting happening that day at the American drone base in Kanatov, in Dnepropetrovsk region, which, incidentally, is right on the flight path of MH17? (We know that it's active; two of their drones have already been shot down by the rebels, one of which landed more or less intact, and the Russians are probably having fun tinkering with it.)

Some people are surmising that the crash was a failed false flag attack orchestrated by the Ukrainians with, at a minimum, American complicity. The idea, this version goes, was to pin the blame on the rebels and, by extension, on Russia, in order to escalate the conflict. This version of events may sound plausible to some people, because false flag operations are part of the standard American playbook. After all, there was that chemical attack in Syria which almost led to a US bombing campaign. The chemical attack was blamed on the Assad regime, but then it turned out to have been a false flag: it was made by the Syrian rebels, on Syrian rebels, with help from Saudi Arabia, in order to smear Assad and escalate the conflict. Russia was able to deescalate the conflict by persuading Assad to give up his chemical weapons stockpile. (It didn't take much convincing, because Assad no doubt realized that this stockpile was more of a liability than an asset.) The Americans were livid; they had been itching to bomb Syria. Had they done so, the too-evil-for-al Qaeda “Caliphate” known as ISIS, which recently spilled out of Syria and rolled right across northern Iraq, would probably be enthroned in Damascus by now as well.

But in the case of flight MH17, the false flag theory rests on an untenable assumption: that the Ukrainians, if tasked with shooting it down, would in fact succeed in shooting it down. All previous evidence illustrates that when Ukrainians want to shoot down a plane, they may succeed in shooting down a nursery school, a maternity ward, an apartment building full of elderly Ukrainians, but never a plane. Conversely, if Ukrainians set out to destroy a maternity ward or a kindergarten (as they are known to sometimes do) odds are that they will hit a Boeing. They inherited a now rather obsolete Buk M1 air defense system from the USSR, which, in skilled hands, is quite capable of shooting down a Boeing flying at cruising altitude, but you'd be wrong to think that they have figured out how it works. They held exactly one training exercise using this system, in 2001, and succeeded in... shooting down a Russian civilian airliner! There were no training exercises in using this system until... it was used to shoot down MH17! It was used in Georgia during the war of 2008 over South Ossetia, where it did shoot down four Russian military aircraft, but there it was commanded by American mercenaries of Polish descent. Ukrainians excell at robbing, selling out, dismantling and destroying their own country; but achieving a specific, precise result as part of a highly coordinated mission? Not so much. Case in point: some Australian and Dutch troops wanted to go and maintain security at the crash site, but couldn't, because the Ukrainians chose the occasion of their arrival to attack some neighboring towns and villages. You'd think that they would treat the opportunity to get some NATO boots on the ground as a Godsend, and act accordingly, but such rational behavior would be, you know, un-Ukrainian. The proper thing for them to do is to go and strafe some nearby village, and get themselves ambushed and slaughtered to a man by an angry babushka with a Kalashnikov.

Once you discount the theory that the downing of MH17 was a highly orchestrated false flag operation, everything falls into place. Why did the Ukrainians deploy their Buk M1 batteries and radar in Donetsk region, even though there was no enemy for them to shoot at? Because they are idiots. Why was there a Ukrainian Sukhoi 25 jet fighter in the air there? Trailing behind passenger jets and using them as human shields is standard Ukrainian practice. Why did that fighter zoom up into the Boeing's flight corridor and pop up on air traffic control radar at the exact time the Boeing was shot down? That's a standard evasive maneuver: the pilot saw a missile being launched, and tried to get out of its way by aiming up. If he hadn't done that, then the story would have been that Ukrainians shot down their own jet fighter as part of a successful (by Ukrainian standards) exercise, held in the vicinity of an international passenger flight just to spice things up. Why did Dnepropetrovsk APC redirect the flight over the war zone and the Buk M1 batteries? Because the Ukrainians had recently issued an order that closed the airspace over Donetsk, well below the plane's cruising altitude and away from its flight path, but perhaps something was lost in translation to Ukraine's wonderfully precise official language, and so the APC redirected the flight right over the closed airspace and told it to fly right above the minimum altitude. Why did the Ukrainians launch the rocket? Well, that was probably something like what happened in the movie The Three Stooges in Outer Space. The stooges find themselves inside a rocket. Moe gets hungry and pushes a button that he thinks says “LUNCH” except that it says “LAUNCH.” Hilarity ensues.

If that is what happened, then that's really embarrassing, not just for the Ukrainians, for whom embarrassment has become something of a national sport, but for their self-appointed American minders. What's making this situation even more difficult is that western news teams, following in the wake of the investigative teams visiting the crash site, got a chance to look at, and report on, the carnage and devastation perpetrated by the Ukrainians against their own people. Worse yet, the Ukrainian government, so carefully slapped together out of US State Department-approved dregs of Ukrainian society, has in the meantime come unstuck. The coalition goverment failed after a spectacular fistfight on the floor of the Supreme Rada, with the two rabidly nationalist parties walking out (OK, I won't call them Nazi, but only today). Prime minister Yatsenyuk (who had been hand-picked for the job and nicknamed “Yats” by Victoria Nuland of the US State Department) has resigned. [Update: he changed his mind and decided to stay: or did his American handlers change his mind for him?] President Piglet is still there, but it's unclear what it is he is doing. In fact, it is becoming unclear whether there even is a Ukrainian government; of late, the officials in Donetsk have been receiving very strange, barely coherent missives from Kiev, obviously written in American English and clumsily translated, then signed and stamped by some Ukrainian monkey to make them look slightly more legit. If the Ukrainian translators run away too, then the American minders will be forced to resort to using Google Translate, making it the world's first experiment in governance through word salad.

The MH17 disaster and Eastern Ukraine are now front page news across the entire world. The circumstances of the crash are anything but clear, but it is clear that they are not what the Americans initially alleged. This they have already admitted. The Ukrainian government is in disarray bordering on nonexistence. The Ukrainian military is either kettled in traps of their own devising and suffering horrific losses, or blasting away at densely populated districts with heavy artillery and rocket fire. The Ukrainian economy is in freefall, with trade links to Russia severed and industry nearing standstill. The country is bankrupt and at the mercy of the IMF. If you feel that the several hundred lives lost aboard MH17 are a tragedy, then you should consider a larger number: 42 million. That's the population of Ukraine minus Crimea (which will be fine) and that's the number of lives at risk from civil war and economic collapse.

The best that the US can do in this situation is to bug out of Ukraine while continuing to babble incoherently. This shouldn't be hard; bugging out and babbling incoherently are two things that the Americans are clearly still very good at; just look at Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.

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Re: Libya, Syria And Now Ukraine - Color Revolution By Force

Postby American Dream » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:47 pm

seemslikeadream » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:45 am wrote:you're always thinking to much AD...there's only so much one can do ...and that is to live your life in the present...we can not take on the world...we have to be able to live in the world one is placed in ..it's fine to know about that stuff.. Patriarchy, Capitalism, Hierarchy, White Supremacy but if you dwell on it you will waste your own special spirit your own special time on earth


The point is to help change the institutions that frame and define our lives. In the case of Putin, his track record is to increase oppression of ethnic minorities, to repress feminists, to attack popular power, and to support the most brutal forms of capital accumulation. He is very, very bad news, and I see no reason why we should be supporting the type of politics that he represents. Neither though the neo-Liberal "enlightenment" of NATO and Uncle Sam, et al...
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Re: Libya, Syria And Now Ukraine - Color Revolution By Force

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:21 pm

I can't get the town where I live to fix the road in front of my house...how in the hell am I going to tackle Putin? I do not have the time or the energy to take on Putin....or those neo nazis you're always going on about ....maybe I can go to a protest every Friday night on the street corner and hold up a sign but that's about it....if you'd like to give me some examples of what YOU do to take on Putin I'll listen

Putin has NOTHING to do with my life ...no one here is supporting him....we're all posting stuff that is happening in the world right now...but real life...day to day ... my real life your real life ....we do what we need to do to live in this world ..we all have busy lives immediate family and friends we need to support and love ..we do what we can do in our space and time.......not one thing I do will ever have an effect on Putin...George Bush ...Dickhead Cheney...but at least I am informed about what is going on and maybe I'll know when to jump on a boat like my great grandparents did when the time comes....because there is no use worrying about stuff I have no control over .
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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