'EcoFascism' and related Acts of Criminality.

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: 'EcoFascism' and related Acts of Criminality.

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Tue Jan 17, 2023 6:16 am

DrEvil » 17 Jan 2023 08:47 wrote:
Joe Hillshoist » Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:46 am wrote:
DrEvil » 14 Jan 2023 04:28 wrote:It's a constant source of bafflement to me how people, often the ones who claim to think for themselves and routinely call others sheep, have gobbled up the oil industry propaganda so thoroughly. Even now, when climate change is glaringly obvious, they're desperately clinging to their narratives.


Some people don't think critically they think oppositionally.

This thread has 10 years of climate disasters catalogued in it:


viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26525&hilit=global+warming


I may have posted once or twice in that thread. Or 291 times. I forget. :)

What I don't get is this: people are worried about encroaching fascism in the name of climate change mitigation, and at the same time they're fighting tooth and nail to stop people actually doing something about it, thereby increasing the chance of their worst nightmares coming true.


because covid fascism is bad climate action is bad. Kind of stupid really.

I get the cynicism tho. But from my pov - no one in power is gonna take effective action on climate change. They'll pay lip service till things are fucked then hoard resources in domed (and doomed) cities or something.

If people are worried about climate fascism they should educate themselves on why it won't work, what will and bang on about it at every opportunity, including taking the time and effort to dismantle climate fascism arguments. They are only made by people trying to preserve their privilege.

In the current system increasing surveillance and authoritarianism is baked in. It's not going to stop if climate change suddenly becomes a non-issue, they'll just find another excuse (my money is on bio-terrorism). On the other hand, if climate change becomes a serious issue it will only give them an excuse for more surveillance and authoritarianism, and the worse things get the more people will cheer it on.


yep.

Worst case of dealing with climate change nothing changes, fascism marches on regardless, best case we help a lot of people and remove one excuse from the fascist playbook.


Yep. Its almost as if the anti climate change stuff is being funded by fascists who see it as an opportunity to tighten their stranglehold on the rest of us.
Joe Hillshoist
 
Posts: 10616
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:45 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: 'EcoFascism' and related Acts of Criminality.

Postby Harvey » Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:30 am

I'm not sure who you replied to, Joe. I feel no need to offer another thoughtful response in return. Apparently, I'm now a 'climate denier' so I shall go away to reflect on advice about oppositional thinking from a heedless and blustering fool.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


Eden Ahbez
User avatar
Harvey
 
Posts: 4200
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 4:49 am
Blog: View Blog (20)

Re: 'EcoFascism' and related Acts of Criminality.

Postby DrEvil » Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:44 pm

Belligerent Savant » Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:08 am wrote:
Harvey » Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:17 pm wrote:
DrEvil » Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:47 pm wrote:I wonder why it's almost always right-wing fucknuggets opposing climate action?


Targeted propaganda. Divide and rule 101.


Yes.

It's also the same vapid/rube take that equates any questioning of mRNA products as largely emanating from "anti-vaxxers/MAGA-tards/Right-Wing talking points"
(As I already touched on in my prior post above).


Related:

Slothrop
@gnocchiwizard

i don't know how anyone could make it through covid without developing doubts about the scientific consensus behind climate chance, and the political consensus that extreme sacrifices must be made by the public to avert a calamity foreseen by scientists with supercomputers.

before covid when i identified as a left wing person there were a lot of beliefs that i didn't really have per se but to which i nevertheless paid lip service (because not to do so was a marker of belonging to the wrong tribe), but over time the lip service ate into my thoughts.

natural systems like global climate are far too complex to be accurately modeled. beware of false prophets.

https://twitter.com/gnocchiwizard/statu ... K-L9hXhnjw

Image


This is your problem right here. You're so caught up in the whole Covid clusterfuck that you're incapable of seeing things from outside that framework. This is how it was with Covid, so this is how it must be with this completely unrelated thing too.

And that screenshot is just meant as another thought-stopper: this one thing did something unexpected, therefore everything else is wrong. It's the same method deniers use when they find one small error in a paper somewhere and then vomit it all over social media as proof that all climate science is bogus.

Also:

The 2022 Atlantic hurricane season was the first season since 1997 in which no tropical cyclones formed in August, and the first season on record to do so during a La Niña year. It was a fairly average hurricane season with an average number of named storms, a slightly above-average number of hurricanes, a slightly below-average number of major hurricanes (category 3 or higher on the 5-level Saffir–Simpson wind speed scale), and a near-normal accumulated cyclone energy (ACE) index.[nb 2][1] Despite this, it became one of the costliest Atlantic hurricane seasons on record.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Atla ... ane_season
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
User avatar
DrEvil
 
Posts: 4144
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:37 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: 'EcoFascism' and related Acts of Criminality.

Postby stickdog99 » Wed Jan 18, 2023 1:48 pm

Joe Hillshoist » 17 Jan 2023 09:54 wrote:
stickdog99 » 17 Jan 2023 12:56 wrote:Add to that all the recent flooding in endless drought California.

As to Dr. Evil's point, of course we should "do something" about energy conservation and generation. However, could we please leave out the centralization of authoritarian control over each individual human's "carbon footprint" as well as the proposed climate lockdown?

The current belief of hundreds of millions of Westerners that climate change is an impending emergency completely justifying those actions and far more is also a fascist wet dream. And that's not just a computer model projection.


Has California always had a cycle of drought then flood?

If so - how come its got some of the worlds most productive farmland? The climate there has been crazy this century was relatively stable for a long time before that, its why the central valley became such a productive agricultural area isn't it?

If not then why is it so fucked up now?


Where are the data showing that the water climate of CA is any more fucked up now than it has been over the past 300, 500, or 1,000 years? Do you have that data Joe? I am simply curious about this myself, and I would love to see your data.

Regardless, humans waste billions of gallons of water, and I think we all agree that we should not do so. But why do we all reflexively assume that Gaia cannot withstand the bad case of dandruff that is human activity when it has withstood asteroid crashes and super volcanoes at the same time? Why do we all suppose that current climate conditions are the worst in Earth's long or even very recent geological history? Is this mere hubris about the "glory" that is modern human civilization?
stickdog99
 
Posts: 6576
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: 'EcoFascism' and related Acts of Criminality.

Postby Gnomad » Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:06 am

The earth will be fine, but we humans might not be. We can only survive within a pretty narrow range of conditions.
You seem to think the Earth is somehow huge and our effect small, but that is not true. Above I posted the numbers of natural animals and birds left versus human cattle (birds and mammals) and natural mammals are just FOUR PERCENT LEFT compared to human cattle.

Also we have reduced forest cover immensely, leading to reduced resiliency of the ecosystems. Humans are affecting ALL ecosystems, planet-wide now. Our effect is not "dandruff" - we are a cancer, not an inconvenience.
The biggest threat is loss of diversity of ecosystems, and deforestation, and only third comes climate change - but that is made worse by the first two - ecosystems that could otherwise evolve and adapt to change, are now already seriously damaged, and that will only increase the effects changing climate has. Oxygen breathing life is only possible on this planet because of the plants and (very important! https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/ocean-oxygen.html half of oxygen comes from algae) algae blooms in the seas that produce the oxygen all animal life uses.

But don't worry, other life will bounce back when we have killed off ourselves.

It baffles me how you seem to misunderstand the size of Earth. Have you ever been in an airplane for a bit longer trip and looked out the window? Earth is not huge, its a pretty small planet. It is not limitless.

https://earth.org/human-activity-land-surface-changes/

What changes has human activity caused to the Earth’s land surface? Farming is a major cause of climate change and biodiversity loss, with species abundance having fallen by over 20% globally since 1900. Diversity within agriculture fares no better, as the United Nations’ Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) reports that just 9 species of plant account for 66% of global crop production. Meanwhile, increasing numbers of local food crops are heading towards extinction, being replaced by more marketable staples such as wheat, rice and maize. The scale of agriculture’s impact can be attributed to humanity’s influence on land surface changes: more than 70% of Earth’s land surface and two-thirds of marine environments have been significantly altered by human activity. Arable lands and grazing pastures cover one-third of Earth’s land surfaces and consume three-quarters of the world’s limited freshwater resources.


Just look at those numbers. We have significantly altered 70% of land area, 66% of seas, our fields (utterly devoid of anything but a monoculture crop - so all forests cut) cover 30%.
You have a serious misunderstanding of the scale of human influence.

Habitat loss and fragmentation are the primary threats to 85% of the species on the IUCN’s Red List of threatened and endangered species. Agriculture is a major driver of this as large swathes of highly productive areas such as forest, meadow and wetland habitats are cleared to make way for fields and grazing land.


In places such as the USA, 75% of processed foods in supermarkets contain genetically modified ingredients, including 92% of maize and 94% of soybean products. These crops are cloned, such that a single disease or pest could wipe out the entire field. The resulting fragile agroecosystem fuels a reliance on pesticides, herbicides and fertilisers to promote crop growth and prevent damage.


We remove the forest with its multitudes of organisms, and replace it with a monoculture of one, modified organism. Don't see a problem?

More than 68 billion tonnes of top-soil is eroded every year at a rate 100 times faster than it can naturally be replenished. Laden with biocides and fertiliser, the soil ends up in waterways where it contaminates drinking water and protected areas downstream. Water treatment and healthcare-associated costs alone cost US taxpayers billions a year. Furthermore, exposed and lifeless soil is more vulnerable to wind and water erosion due to lack of root and mycelium systems that hold it together. Healthy soil is rich in humus, which holds more water, and decreases erosion through increased soil density and particle clumping. A key contributor to soil erosion is over-tilling: although it increases productivity in the short-term by mixing in surface nutrients (e.g. fertiliser), tilling is physically destructive to the soil’s structure and in the long-term leads to soil compaction, loss of fertility and surface crust formation that worsens topsoil erosion.


https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visual ... e-ice-age/
Once humans figured out how to cultivate plants and livestock for regular sources of food, they needed land to use.

For centuries, the loss of greenery was relatively slow. By 1800, the world had lost 700 million hectares each of forest and grassland, replaced by around 900 million hectares of land for grazing animals and 400 million hectares for crops.

But industrialization in the 1800s rapidly sped up the process.
Percentage of Habitable Land 1700 1800 1900 1950 2018
Forest 52% 50% 48% 44% 38%
Grassland 38% 36% 27% 12% 14%
Grazing 6% 9% 16% 31% 31%
Crops 3% 4% 8% 12% 15%

While half of Earth’s loss of forests occurred from 10,000 years ago to 1900, the other half or 1.1 billion hectares have been lost since 1900. Part of this loss, about 100 million hectares, has occurred in the more recent time period of 2000 to 2018.

The biggest culprit?

Though urban land use has rapidly grown, it still pales in comparison to the 31% of habitable land now being used for grazing livestock. Most of that land came at first from repurposed grasslands, but forests have also been cleared along the way.


So a full ONE THIRD of all habitable land area has been turned from forest - to barren landscapes of cattle pastures. Almost all of the biodiversity and resilience is lost. Often permanently, as agricultural land use leads to erosion, and the forests cant grow back easily even if the land use was stopped.

Even more serious are the tropical forests, where all the nutrients have dissolved out of the ground to depth of several meters to tens of meters, and all the nutrients needed for trees to grow are within the ecosystem - meaning that when you cut the trees and take them away, the land cannot ever again support a similar forest. And then you need fertilizers to even grow food there. The whole Amazon area is like this. (I have studied forest and mire ecology at a university for several years, so I know something about these issues personally)

https://www.dw.com/en/the-amazon-nutrie ... a-50139632

Rainforests in Brazil are burning. Their loss can never be restored. That's because these soils are not just infertile, they're the most nutrient-poor soils in the world — and they're unsuitable for agriculture.

Nowhere else in the world is the number of animal and plant species as high as in the Amazon rainforest. Not even the rainforests in Asia or Africa can compare. The Amazon region has more species per square kilometer than in the whole of Europe.

One example: In just one hectare (about the size of a sports field), researchers were able to identify more than 450 tree species. In all of Germany, by comparison, there aren't even 100. The numbers are so huge that it's difficult to imagine how such a thing is possible.

Read more: Amazon wildfires: Leaders pressure Brazil to quell 'international crisis'

An abundance of species

Beyond that, there are tens of thousands of plant species, including countless medicinal plants, over 2.5 million insect species, 1,300 kinds of birds, 430 mammals, over 3,000 fish species, hundreds of different amphibians and reptiles. Numerous species are discovered every year, and many have yet to even be been seen by us humans.

These rainforests are a gigantic accumulation of biomass. Their plants grow on several levels, like floors in a building. There are tree giants that grow to a height of 60 to 80 meters. Then, there is the middle tree level. Below, it is very dark and humid, because the crowns of the trees are so close together that they act as a green blanket.
....
In this rainforest "universe," there are infinite niches for animals — thanks to an abundance of food, like leaves, seeds, fruits and nutrients. Everything is in the plants. As is the CO2 the trees extract from the atmosphere and store as they grow. All the while, they produce oxygen.

The amazing thing is that the soil is as poor in nutrients as the vegetation is rich. The humus layer, which is that dark, organic stuff in the soil that develops when plants or animal matter break down, is minimal nearly everywhere. The soil in the Amazon rainforest is the poorest and most infertile in the world. If one cuts down the forest, it is irretrievably lost. The humus layer is quickly washed out. Three years after clearing the forest (at the latest, nothing will grow there. What remains is washed out, worthless soil.

But why is that so?

The rainforest feeds itself. Most nutrients are absorbed by the plants and do not get into the soil at all. It's a kind of supernatural cycle. The few plant remains that do reach the ground — leaves or branches — are decomposed in no time by fungi and bacteria thanks to the year-round warm and humid climate. The nutrients released, such as potassium, calcium and magnesium, are immediately reabsorbed by the roots.

There is virtually nothing left for the soil. Nor can a fertile layer of humus ever form. Just a few centimetres below the top layer of soil, there is nothing more than sand or clay. All nutrients in the rainforest are stored in the plants themselves, not in the soil. For agriculture, rainforest soils can therefore only be used for very short periods of time.




https://ourworldindata.org/world-lost-one-third-forests
Over the last 10,000 years the world has lost one-third of its forests. An area twice the size of the United States. Half occurred in the last century.


And so on and so on,
but I have a feeling that you are not interested in an honest dialogue about these issues. Seems you have made up your mind and decided that a belief is good enough. Am I wrong?

What we often forget is that today it is not just humans doing something - it is humans using heavy machinery doing something. We are using fuels to power our servant machinery, multiplying our ability to affect our environment many hundred times over.

It is the equivalent of 600 slaves for an American is the amount of work we can do to change our environment. That is bloody huge.
https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/each-ame ... ervants-2/

And this source is an American capitalist enterprise mouthpiece - they think this is all great and dandy, of course.
Image

Can you see a few countries that have done more than their part?

I calculated my own CO2 emissions, they come to 2700 kg per year so 2.7 tons. Mostly it is this low because no animal products, no car, no flying, and live in a district heated apartment and buy very little stuff, and biowaste is wholly collected and composted, as well as paper, cardboard, plastic, metal and glass collected and recycled. Average for my country would be 8 tons. We have one of the best recycling and collection systems in the world though - mandated by law. And it actually mostly works well.

At the same time, a Wyoming person produces over a 100 tons...
Last edited by Gnomad on Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:46 am, edited 9 times in total.
la nuit de tous approche
Gnomad
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: 'EcoFascism' and related Acts of Criminality.

Postby Gnomad » Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:19 am

And regarding the oxygen producing algae in seas ...
https://www.sciencealert.com/acid-ocean ... en-by-2200

The tiny floating organisms that supply our world with as much as a fifth of its oxygen will be in dire straights as our oceans acidify, new research suggests.

The creatures, called diatoms, will be deprived of the silica building blocks they need to construct their protective shells, which come in all sorts of dazzling opaline shapes.

This could reduce their numbers by up to 26 percent by the end of the next century, researchers have found.

"Diatoms are one of the most important plankton groups in the ocean," explains marine biologist Jan Taucher from the GEOMAR Helmholtz Centre for Ocean Research Kiel (GEOMAR).

"Their decline could lead to a significant shift in the marine food web or even a change for the ocean as a carbon sink."

These single-celled algae compose 40 percent of the ocean's photosynthetic biomass, making them one the main components of the biological pump that takes CO2 out of our atmosphere, storing it in the depths of the ocean.

They are one of the reasons the oceans have managed to absorb a huge chunk of the excess CO2 we humans have been producing.


Perhaps I should also say that I have no doubts that the people controlling our world-wide economic systems will want to stay on top in any case, and will use the increasing catastrophies to sell us shitty solutions to the very real problems we have caused on this planet.

That does not mean that the problems are not real, and that something must change, for both the human race and all the other myriad and numerous living beings and ecosystems to survive and thrive.

As it is now, humans are just taking and taking from all around, while not giving back at all. Nature works as a reciprocal network, everything circulates and flows through other organisms. Plants turn sunlight into chemical energy, and everything else alive depends on that. Plants are the loving mother for all of us. We humans have broken this circle of reciprocity, and are at present selfishly using everything we can, with no thought on how it affects all other life.

For me personally, I went vegan in the 1990s, stopped driving cars in 2000, and have used an airplane once in the last decade. All because it was completely clear to me at that point in the 90s where we are headed with our overconsumption and overuse of natural resources. I also went to study mire and forest ecology because of this, but ended up doing something else as my work later. Every one of us is personally responsible, and there are numerous things a person can do to decrease our impact on the planet, while still living a full and fulfilling life. I have not given up anything that would have diminished my life - I just try to be reasonable. I also buy all of my vegan food from local producers only - never from multinational giants, and I consume as little as possible overall. I walk or cycle everywhere, use public transportation when needed etc.

And for those who say "it is just the corporations that are responsible" - well, there would be no corporations without people buying and consuming their products. And corporations consist of people.
I also feel that corporations act to diminish peoples sense of accountability - when people act as workers for corporations, they tend to feel they are acting as members of ephemeral organisms, like organs of the corporations. It leads to similar issues as doing something when an authority tells you to do it - just like in numerous human wars and genocides... Was just doing what I was told, was just going along, was just thinking of the shareholder profits.

But of course we need accountability and reining in of the capitalist monster machine that is soullesly driving all this - we have created egregores of our associations with these immaterial, invented entities and now there is just some psychopath (or a few) at the rudder. We must not be like those.

Some people here compare climate scientists to Covid vaccine "scientists" - but here is a pretty big error of thinking. The "scientists" who developed the vaccines, were working for huge corporations - for profit motives - for big money.

Most ecologists and environmental scientists, and climate scientists on the other hand, work for the public - they are taxpayer funded mostly. At least in my country (northern Europe) all ecological and climate research is funded publicly. They have no interest in selling anything, no profit motive like the pharma industry has.

They are not the same thing. Ecologists have been saying for several decades that our actions are unsustainable, they have faced resistance from corporations and governments for a long time before anything they say has been taken seriously.

Health and medicine should never be profit-driven like they are now in large part. A profit motive distorts everything, as well as all research should be open access so anyone can use it - not be privately owned and locked behind paywalls. As it is, much of medical research is tainted because profits come first, health and knowledge not even second or third.
Last edited by Gnomad on Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
la nuit de tous approche
Gnomad
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: 'EcoFascism' and related Acts of Criminality.

Postby Gnomad » Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:17 am

https://www.psu.edu/news/research/story ... y-thought/

UNIVERSITY PARK, Pa. — As climate change nudges the global temperature higher, there is rising interest in the maximum environmental conditions like heat and humidity to which humans can adapt. New Penn State research found that in humid climates, that temperature may be lower than previously thought.

It has been widely believed that a 35°C wet-bulb temperature (equal to 95°F at 100% humidity or 115°F at 50% humidity) was the maximum a human could endure before they could no longer adequately regulate their body temperature, which would potentially cause heat stroke or death over a prolonged exposure.

Wet-bulb temperature is read by a thermometer with a wet wick over its bulb and is affected by humidity and air movement. It represents a humid temperature at which the air is saturated and holds as much moisture as it can in the form of water vapor; a person’s sweat will not evaporate at that skin temperature.

But in their new study, the researchers found that the actual maximum wet-bulb temperature is lower — about 31°C wet-bulb or 87°F at 100% humidity — even for young, healthy subjects. The temperature for older populations, who are more vulnerable to heat, is likely even lower.

W. Larry Kenney, professor of physiology and kinesiology and Marie Underhill Noll Chair in Human Performance, said the results could help people better plan for extreme heat events, which are occurring more frequently as the world warms.

“If we know what those upper temperature and humidity limits are, we can better prepare people — especially those who are more vulnerable — ahead of a heat wave,” Kenney said. “That could mean prioritizing the sickest people who need care, setting up alerts to go out to a community when a heatwave is coming, or developing a chart that provides guidance for different temperature and humidity ranges.”


After analyzing their data, the researchers found that critical wet-bulb temperatures ranged from 25°C to 28°C in hot-dry environments and from 30°C to 31°C in warm-humid environments — all lower than 35°C wet-bulb.

“Our results suggest that in humid parts of the world, we should start to get concerned — even about young, healthy people — when it's above 31 degrees wet-bulb temperature,” Kenney said. “As we continue our research, we’re going to explore what that number is in older adults, as it will probably be even lower than that.”


https://www.inverse.com/article/34990-s ... at-by-2100

In the future, parts of the world will become so hot and humid that healthy adults sitting in the shade will die within a matter of hours. It’s hard to imagine, and yet that’s where Earth’s climate is headed, perhaps sooner than expected.

New research, published Wednesday in Science Advances, found that 75 percent of the population of South Asia will experience extremely dangerous heat waves by 2100 if no action is taken to fight climate change. Four percent will experience unsurvivable heat — that’s 69 million people at today’s population level.

The Indus and Ganges river valleys, spanning southeast Pakistan, northern India, and Bangladesh, have a disastrous combination of a densely populated, vulnerable population and extreme, humid heat. In these parts of the world, extreme heat is already frequent and deadly. A 2015 heat wave that covered large parts of India and Pakistan killed an estimated 3,500 people.

While most climate change studies look only at temperature, this one uses a different measure that accounts for the impact of humidity on the ability of humans to cool themselves off through sweating. It’s called wet-bulb temperature, and it measures how hot the air would be if cooled through the evaporation of water until it reaches 100 percent humidity.

When humans sweat, that moisture evaporates into the air, which transfers heat energy away from the skin. However, when the wet-bulb temperature reaches the temperature of the skin, at about 95 degrees Fahrenheit, it becomes impossible for heat to move away from the body in this way. Even if enough sweat could be produced to bring the surrounding air to 100 percent humidity, the air would still be hotter than the skin, and no energy would leave the body. Previous research has estimated that a healthy human could survive a maximum of six hours in these conditions — which means find a cooler spot, or die.

A wet-bulb temperature of 95 degrees has never been recorded, but parts of the world have hit 89 degrees, which is already extremely dangerous to any human who is exposed to it for more than a short period of time. The hottest wet-bulb temperatures in the world are found in the Persian/Arabian Gulf, in the northern parts of South Asia, and in Eastern China.

If there’s a glimmer of hope, it’s that the researchers found a very significant difference in outcome if the world bands together to aggressively fight climate change. With concerted action to limit greenhouse gas emissions, none of South Asia would surpass the unsurvivable threshold by 2100, although 55 percent of the population would still be exposed to extreme wet-bulb temperatures of 88 degrees or higher.

In any case, humans living in very hot and humid parts of the world will be forced to adapt. That will mean air conditioners for those who can afford it and, likely, communal cool spaces for emergencies. At the most extreme, we may see mass migrations of climate change refugees away from regions of the world that have become literally unsurvivable.


Probably in the future the elites will fly to cooler places when heat waves hit, with their private jets to chill, while the rubes and plebes by the millions cook alive when they can't afford air conditioning - or go anywhere else.

Just like they are now flying their private jets to Davos (some 1000 jets, I think!) to discuss climate issues - while thinking that it is not really their problem - they have the resources to not be too inconvenienced, while the rest will bear the impact of their choices.

And if shit gets really tough, there are always comfy bunkers in mountainsides - its always cool there.
https://www.re-thinkingthefuture.com/de ... the-world/

https://oppidum.ch/
We are an engineering, technology and development company specializing in ultra-luxury fortified underground residences. We create spaces that are totally secure and utterly discreet yet sumptuously appointed and entirely bespoke – all underground, within your own domain. You can be sure that you, your family and your most treasured possessions have a place of safety and comfort close at hand for as long as you need, whatever happens in the world outside.


Image

Compare to this - CO2 levels over 500 million years...Start of the smooth blue line is the period in the above XKCD comic.
Image
https://earth.org/data_visualization/a- ... ry-of-co2/

The most distant period in time for which we have estimated CO2 levels is around the Ordovician period, 500 million years ago. At the time, atmospheric CO2 concentration was at a whopping 3000 to 9000 ppm! The average temperature wasn’t much more than 10 degrees C above today’s, and those of you who have heard of the runaway hothouse Earth scenario may wonder why it didn’t happen then. Major factors were that the Sun was cooler, and the planet’s orbital cycles were different.
Historic CO2 levels

CO2 levels over the past 500 million years. Foster et al – Descent into the icehouse. (the graph above)

CO2 levels are determined by the imbalance between carbon sequestration (burial in sediments, capture by plants), and carbon emissions (decomposition and volcanic activity). Imbalances in this system created a downward trend in CO2 levels, leading to a glaciation period around 300 million years ago. This was followed by a period of intense volcanic activity, doubling CO2 concentration to about 1000 ppm. Levels then dropped until they reached today’s concentrations during the Oligocene era, 33 to 23 million years ago, when temperatures were still 4 to 6 degrees C higher than today.
Historical temperature data

Temperature estimates over the past 500 million years. By Glen Fergus.

This is quite a worrying fact as the amounts of greenhouse gases we’ve emitted could already potentially take us back to similar conditions.

Last edited by Gnomad on Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
la nuit de tous approche
Gnomad
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: 'EcoFascism' and related Acts of Criminality.

Postby Gnomad » Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:13 am

This illustrates nicely how little water and air there actually is. All the water on Earth as globes, and the pink one is all the air in a globe. Do not look like very much at all when presented this way?

Image
Note especially how little water is freshwater, in lakes and streams. That is a tiny, tiny amount.

Image
The pink ball is all the air in the atmosphere, if it was all at sea-level pressure.

Source:
https://archive.nytimes.com/dotearth.bl ... tmosphere/

https://www.vice.com/en/article/4ax9q3/ ... protestors
Mud Wizard and Mayhem: Germany’s Huge Anti-Coal Protest is Ongoing
Over the weekend, between 15,000 and 35,000 people showed up to protest the expansion of a coal mine. We spoke to them.
“We don’t believe everything will be alright, but we stand in this crisis in solidarity with each other.”
la nuit de tous approche
Gnomad
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: 'EcoFascism' and related Acts of Criminality.

Postby stickdog99 » Thu Jan 19, 2023 5:26 pm

It baffles me how you seem to misunderstand the size of Earth.


LOL. If you were an extremophile microbe, your survivable habitat would extend from at least 50 km above the earth's to at least 50 km below the earth's surface. Humans inhabit no more than 700 meters, and typically far less than 100 meters of that dimension. That's far less than 0.1% of Gaia's survivable volume currently occupied by the tiniest layer of dandruff, acne, skin cancer or whatever you want to call it. And while humans indeed can alter the atmosphere, nothing humans cannot currently do anywhere near the damage of the supervolcano and/or an asteroid crash.

It's amazing how much hubris humans have about their own destructive abilities. Do you think that humans could destroy the Sun if we put our minds to that? Are humans a cancer on the whole universe in your mind? No?

Then maybe you might want to open your mind to how little of Earth's entire biosphere that is even remotely effected by humans other than to expertly evolve to exploit minor changes in conditions caused by human activity. Sure, we can make Earth hell for humans and other mammals, but that's about it. Of course, we have our best AI networks working on this "problem", so we might not be done yet. Unfortunately, our ongoing quest to "eat from the tree of knowledge so that we can become God" still continues apace. Maybe our current trajectory is just an inevitable consequence of our hubris?
stickdog99
 
Posts: 6576
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: 'EcoFascism' and related Acts of Criminality.

Postby stickdog99 » Thu Jan 19, 2023 5:28 pm

Gnomad » 19 Jan 2023 10:13 wrote:This illustrates nicely how little water and air there actually is. All the water on Earth as globes, and the pink one is all the air in a globe. Do not look like very much at all when presented this way?

Image
Note especially how little water is freshwater, in lakes and streams. That is a tiny, tiny amount.

Image
The pink ball is all the air in the atmosphere, if it was all at sea-level pressure.

Source:
https://archive.nytimes.com/dotearth.bl ... tmosphere/

https://www.vice.com/en/article/4ax9q3/ ... protestors
Mud Wizard and Mayhem: Germany’s Huge Anti-Coal Protest is Ongoing
Over the weekend, between 15,000 and 35,000 people showed up to protest the expansion of a coal mine. We spoke to them.
“We don’t believe everything will be alright, but we stand in this crisis in solidarity with each other.”


Now, if you want to understand my previous point, please present all the humans and human habitats on Earth in the same volumetric manner.
stickdog99
 
Posts: 6576
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: 'EcoFascism' and related Acts of Criminality.

Postby stickdog99 » Thu Jan 19, 2023 5:40 pm

And the temperature chart you showed was vague reassuring.

It's nice to know that temperatures were warmer in 5000 BCE than they are currently and that 90% of the "emergency" we currently face is based on the same type of computer models that predicted millions of COVID deaths in Sweden.

Note that I agree with you 100% that we need to start taking the risks of our environmentally destructive activity ruining our environment for future humans and mammals far more seriously.

But please just stop with the insane hubris that humans are the worst things that ever happened to the universe and that humans scientists currently know for certain what the weather will be like on Earth in 100 or 1,000 years if we don't do X today. We aren't and we don't.
stickdog99
 
Posts: 6576
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: 'EcoFascism' and related Acts of Criminality.

Postby DrEvil » Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:22 pm

Stickdog wrote:

It's amazing how much hubris humans have about their own destructive abilities. Do you think that humans could destroy the Sun if we put our minds to that? Are humans a cancer on the whole universe in your mind? No?


Come on, this is silly. We can't destroy the planet (yet), but we're perfectly capable of destroying our own habitat, and that's what people want to avoid.
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
User avatar
DrEvil
 
Posts: 4144
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:37 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: 'EcoFascism' and related Acts of Criminality.

Postby Gnomad » Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:11 pm

Exactly.

Your hubris that humans are harmless is far more dangerous.
Nothing I posted claims we can "destroy the earth". No we can't, not even if we blow up all the 13000 or so nukes we have built - but we can easily make this planet un-inhabitable to ourselves.
Life will rebound, we may not. You are constantly claiming I said things I definitely did not.

https://earth.org/data_visualization/a- ... ry-of-co2/
And if you would read the whole article there (I know you won't because I see now you are a true believer and are not discussing in good faith) temperatures follow co2 levels by 50 years. So any warming we see now is the result of the co2 levels 50 years back. So we will see the whole amount of warming from today's levels 50 years from today. Also, look at the trajectory of the graph at the very end...It is pointing right up within a very short time. The change is fast.
Also, they are not claiming to be infallibe and know for certain, you said that. Shows your contempt, nothing else.

CO2 Data from Ice Cores

It is undeniable that the climate is an extremely complicated system with many factors that we still do not quite understand, so such statements need to be taken with a grain of salt. Moreover, the further we look back, the more uncertainty there is around the data. Robust evidence “only” spans back 800,000 years thanks to ice cores providing high-resolution records in the form of air bubbles trapped under the freezing snow.
Ice core CO2 data past 800 000 years

Robust CO2 data from ice cores covering the last 800,000 years. From climate.nasa.gov

The Highest Levels of Co2 in Recent History

We use this record as a baseline to compare current events to, and the post-industrial upward trend in CO2 concentrations is evident. Unfortunately, the trend is recent enough that the results have yet to fully kick in. The time lag between CO2 emission and their pollution and warming effect is around 50 years, and whatever changes we observe now are only the tip of the iceberg.

Looking back at the 2 extra degrees of warmth last time CO2 levels were this high (Pliocene era, 3 million years ago), should be enough of a call to action considering the damage two more degrees would cause today.


Image

You sound like you are responding to someone insulting you personally. "Humans are the worst thing that happened to the universe". No. How can you think like that? We are capable of self reflection. It is not an attack on you personally. I am analyzing human behaviour, and that includes me and you.
Last edited by Gnomad on Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
la nuit de tous approche
Gnomad
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: 'EcoFascism' and related Acts of Criminality.

Postby Gnomad » Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:50 pm

https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/the-huma ... f-humanity

Image
The human borg cube, as requested :) Meaning, all around 8 billion humans squashed into a solid cube. Not very big!

Image
Also enough humans to hold hands and encircle the globe 300 times.

But these are meaningless - because we amplify our personal power by using machinery and external fuels, as I already pointed out above. 600 extra humans worth of output, for average American. I guess you skipped over that part. Did you know we use oil, coal and nuclear power, as well as fusion power from the sun, to do work?

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visual ... -on-earth/

Image

Image

So there you go, everything you asked for, nicely visualized. Absolutely ok. Insignificant dandruff, as it were.

But really, I do agree we are dandruff. It is just that we are such busybodies, we just can't help it.
la nuit de tous approche
Gnomad
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: 'EcoFascism' and related Acts of Criminality.

Postby Gnomad » Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:34 am

Here are a couple more.
Image

Notable - look at the amount of cattle animals bred for food - and compare that to amount of wild animals or humans. Our cattle outnumbers both us and all natural animals now. The largest contribution an individual can do is stop using / abusing animals for food and going vegan, cutting out the middleman in the process, reducing suffering of sentient beings and ecological impact.

https://animalequality.org/news/why-fac ... n-history/

According to the United Nations, the number of industrial livestock sent to slaughter each year is equivalent to eight times the human population on planet Earth. At no other time in history have so many animals died or suffered so much throughout their lives.

Factory farming is the main cause of animal suffering and abuse. These silent victims have been converted into machines that generate meat, milk, and eggs. These animals are sentient beings with a desire to live, but we take that life away.

These images show us the reality of an industry that is hidden from us so well. If you ever think about helping animals, there is no better time than now. With every meatless meal, you can help make these images a part of the past.

I will not link any images, they can be looked at at the link. Unmeasurable cruelty on an industrial scale - sentient beings used as machinery parts, bred and born into captivity, never seeing the sky their whole lives.

https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets
If everyone shifted to a plant-based diet we would reduce global land use for agriculture by 75%. This large reduction of agricultural land use would be possible thanks to a reduction in land used for grazing and a smaller need for land to grow crops.



Summary

Half of the world’s habitable land is used for agriculture, with most of this used to raise livestock for dairy and meat. Livestock are fed from two sources – lands on which the animals graze and land on which feeding crops, such as soy and cereals, are grown. How much would our agricultural land use decline if the world adopted a plant-based diet?

Research suggests that if everyone shifted to a plant-based diet we would reduce global land use for agriculture by 75%. This large reduction of agricultural land use would be possible thanks to a reduction in land used for grazing and a smaller need for land to grow crops. The research also shows that cutting out beef and dairy (by substituting chicken, eggs, fish or plant-based food) has a much larger impact than eliminating chicken or fish.



And trends on biodiversity in just the last few decades, change has been swift - and this graph only tracks vertebrates and nothing else:
Image
la nuit de tous approche
Gnomad
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 171 guests