Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

[lunarmoth]

Hazing ritual? You do those around here?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazing

If I wasnt so flippant and jaded I'd be shocked and disappointed
What happened? Did you just unconsciously blurt out a secret of this board?

Never mind. I realize I have my own problems with self expression but I think you overestimate the need to be "compassionate" with traumatized individuals. As if we werent all traumatized - at least that's my starting point. Are you so attached to your role of counselor and rationalizer that you can't tolerate other languages, some that are friendlier to emotion than the one you grew up in?

You are offended when people bypass the analytic mode and go for the jugular and you assume this is because they are ill, or damaged? Whereas this blog, which has "hazing rituals", is a sane, reasonable place. A perfectly fine place to bring a woman and introduce her to your friends after posting a long excerpts from her blog including a gang rape scene on the set of a snuff film.

I'm not upset, I'm just astonished at how you missed all that just now, and have been missing it all along. Because it didnt happen by accident or through the intervention of some unseen hand. You set it up. You did it. All by yourself, guruilla of the lower case profile. How can you not own it? This is not about "public shaming"

I think there's a place for hard core pornography. Lets discuss it, not pretend it doesn't move us in secret ways that we forget the next day.

I think you're revealing your background in cults.

[Sounder]

nashvillebrook, well said, thanks.

Thank-you lunarmoth for bringing us first hand testimony.

[guruilla]

Damn, I have no idea what brought here just now. I've been blogging on political stuff non-stop for weeks and needed a break, maybe? But something made me open a window and check this thread and I feel like I just walked into the middle of divorce proceedings.

I'd just like to say...that lunarmoth does have an ally in me, and that I also agree with what guruilla says about the difficulty of believing the totality of the story just given the material posted here. I read the Cold War book and listed to the podcast, oh, about 3 times. I can tell from their work that both lunar and guru are top shelf minds, and caring individuals. They're not trying to put one over on anyone. There's no payoff, or benefit that I can see for either of them. They're just working through the material b/c MKULTRA and all the rest is supposed to be something we're interested in here. No? These are truly fascinating narratives, and there's a wealth of new data points. Folks can ignore them if they choose. But impugning the integrity of the person who brings the information directly to you seems in particular bad form.

I can also see how someone who has been a fan of LC would be like "oh no she didn't," with bringing this material to light. It's unflattering. But, the way I see it, in the context of the whole story, LC is a victim too. Maybe, instead of attacking (or hazing) lunarmoth, we could dig deeper into the clues provided and maybe come up with some new connections that actually shed some light on the subject instead of generating so much heat.

There's a troubling sexist dynamic throughout this thread. If it were a guy telling the story of his experiences with a famous woman, I seriously doubt there would be all this negging. Likewise, the more the negative banter goes unchallenged, and the more lunar signals her exasperation, the worse it all gets. the discourse isn't operating on the level of exchanging information. it's operating on the level of coercion, which is particularly nasty given the subject matter we're dealing with here.

Lunar, AD...presented her story in memoir form because that's how the story happened to her. Fuck this shit about having to apologize for presenting the information in this way. It doesn't have to be sanitized into a course outline or a powerpoint presentation so as not to offend male sensibilities, and calm their little nerves. This story happened in the context of the lives lived, and that's how the story should be told.

It takes an amazing amount of courage to do what Ann did, throughout her whole life. People who hide behind avatars and screen names to hurl insults at her can't take that away from her. She'll always be more powerful and more courageous than you.

Thank you NB.

@lunarmoth: I have nothing much to respond to that last post. It's painful to read.

By hazing ritual I was referring to something generic and thought I'd done a good job describing what I meant by it. I certainly don't wish to be your counselor.

[lunarmoth]

I'm sorry it's painful. I'm happy you're human. I don't need a counsellor, just a collaborator.

[PufPuf93]

Lunarmoth (and Guruilla)

I have been fascinated by this thread and realized early on that I had scant substance to add.

What do you want so RI is a safe place for you Lunarmoth so as to continue without anquish?

You have given much IMHO.

The posters here at RI intimidate me frankly.

No way do I have the energy nor focus of most RI posters.

You have shown much strength in being on point for pages and weeks.

Sometimes we get too much in our heads and don't perceive well how others might feel.

to you both.

[guruilla]

[lunarmoth]

Thank you, lurkers, for the supportive posts. And thank guruilla for creating this hellish sub-basement of RI. I wish I had more time to be thoughtful - I tried just now and someone texted me and I lost the whole post I'd been composing which would have explained how I really feel about everything (so maybe it deserved to die).

Guruilla knows and feels even more than he's saying. This is not just a discussion - it's been a ritual from the beginning and some came here blindfolded while others brought weapons. That's how it is, and was, all along and just because we are good people doesn't mean we can't get carried off. This thread unleashed a lot for me and believe it or not, i do feel safe here, especially now that some of you have stepped forward.

I'm sorry if I've sounded inconsistent or crazy at times - I know this puts stress on the group. I've been working quite hard to pay down debt that i brought on myself writing books. That's the reality these days. My former "writing career" ended in the slaughterhouse. But now I'm here. Thanks to guruilla and you all, I think I would like to take this thread a little farther.

[brekin]

I think giving someone the space and time (the forum) to express their thoughts at length is quite respectable and compassionate. If someone is looking for total consensus or the space to post about events and claims without the need to articulate or even accept some modicum of the need for evidence, however, this probably isn't the place to do so. There are many forums to post about such topics where whatever you post will be accepted as fact. I'd even say this thread has even been pretty insulated from most reality tests because of principal players participation and the desire to respect their personal experience, to say nothing of the ingrained RI boosterism of conspiracy theory before any exploration of conspiracy fact.

No rituals here, (other than the usual pomp and circumstance of internet forums) and the suggestion of such covert, dark happenings I'd say doesn't bode well for those who might already be skeptical of the suggestion that there is a conspiratorial nexus surrounding LC. Drawing RI into such a venn diagram is past bordering on magical thinking. I don't think it is "hazing" to basically ask "how so"? I too often think whoever disagrees with me is part of the global conspiracy, but as that is most people, it stops being a conspiracy and is just the status quo.

As for guruilla somehow failing as a handmaiden or collaborator in all of this, (?) I'd say he's done more than his share of beating the drum for this cause. And I say this as someone who was burned by the old man myself in relation to sharing information about this topic and has been mostly contra his position. I boggle at what loyalty test he's failed. It goes without saying, that my half ass endorsement of him, of course, should not be read as any form of collaboration or evidence of ritualistic collusion. That I even have to make such a statement I think is a testament to the depth of how far we have gone into bizarro world.

[guruilla]

In retrospect it was probably a mistake to refer to "hazing ritual," which to me means any sort of trial by fire that occurs in a group setting, literally hazing = subjection to harassment or ridicule. Of course the word ritual is a trigger word. Much disagreement comes down to language & the assumption that we mean words or phrases in exactly the same way, which is rarely the case.

[lunarmoth]

I'm on the bus but I'll just say: brekin, i simply dont have time to correct all your misinterpretations and misunderstandings and strawman arguments. That could amount to a full time job and am already fully employed. That's why I'd rather focus attention on those who are ready to listen. I don't ask for loyalty, just a minimum of respect.

And guruilla: "hazing rituals" are completely outside my experience. I never have been to a frat party. You know the kind of woman who shows up at those. What's the deeper association that you're unaware of here?

[Elvis]

I fear I may already have spoken out of turn here, but let me add my thanks to you, Lunamoth, for bringing out this difficult story, and to Guruilla as well for exploring it.

The discussion here has sparked discussion between myself and a friend who's a huge Cohen fan; I was never much familiar with Cohen's music but I know the words to "Everybody Knows" because my friend played it so often, cranked up loud. Now, I listen with a cocked ear.

[lunarmoth]

" If someone is looking for total consensus or the space to post about events and claims without the need to articulate or even accept some modicum of the need for evidence, however, this probably isn't the place to do so. There are many forums to post about such topics where whatever you post will be accepted as fact. I'd even say this thread has even been pretty insulated from most reality tests because of principal players participation and the desire to respect their personal experience, to say nothing of the ingrained RI boosterism of conspiracy theory before any exploration of conspiracy fact."

Is this your fundamental objection to this thread, brekin? That I, or we, have not posted enough evidence to support -- what exactly? Those opening excerpts from my website and self-published memoir that guruilla posted on August 24 without first asking my permission? and that I didn't even see till some time later, as I had to wait over a week to get approved to join RI, by which time guruilla and I had finished the podcast interviews. By then, the discussion here was well under way (without any input from me, of course, since I wasn't a member yet, and was only vaguely acquainted with RI which has its own special culture apparently and certain rules and protocols which I have not learned-- ) ?

By the time I was allowed to post here, as a registered user, it was October 4 and the discussion was in its sixth week and already covered 6 pages. I had just come off a 16-day live-in home care shift with a 76 year old airplane pilot with early dementia, and had exactly one day free before beginning a second two-week 24/7 gig living with a batty lady from France with advanced dementia. That means, a month of isolation and being physically and emotionally present in someone else's home. This is what I do nowadays, in both official languages. You should try it sometime. In addition, at work I often had little to no internet therefore no way to keep up with the discussion. Also during that period guruilla -- probably in an attempt to defend my credibility -- asked me for a "timeline" which I wrote on the couch while my client occasionally napped.

Bottom line, I never caught up. Guruilla was doing a great job of moderating and I decided to be non interventionist since it was my story that was being talked about and I was hungry for feedback, negative and positive. Unfortunately, even now, I have not had time to process the feedback, or make a list of the unanswered objections because in addition to taking care of old people, I also coach writers and edit their books. Which often amounts to being their therapist.

I think at some point I jumped in to defend Henry Makow and the response was so hostile. It reminded me of the time, when i was 12, I put on my figure skates and went down to the local rink and tried skating with the boys. Someone even gave me a hockey stick, but within 30 seconds I was shoved into the boards from behind, and left in the corner to pick myself off the ice and go home. I decided that was enough. No more hockey for me. I

So that's where things stand. I'll gladly answer any of your questions if you will lay them out for me in some kind of order. Additionally, I would ask brekin: Why do you doubt my story? Do you think I would make this stuff up? What makes you believe none of this happened, or that I hallucinated it, for revenge because I was 'scorned'? Does that strike you as a rational explanation for all this material?

I have a few hours to spare. Ask me anything.

[tapitsbo]

I'm not trying to "poke holes in your story" lunarmoth; it's very compelling. I appreciate that's it's not a submission of accusations/evidence.

My question, however, is whether the friend that visited you in the 1970s and told you about MKULTRA wasn't passing on information that itself might've been manipulated or contained poison pills.

[lunarmoth]

I'm not trying to "poke holes in your story" lunarmoth; it's very compelling. I appreciate that's it's not a submission of accusations/evidence.

My question, however, is whether the friend that visited you in the 1970s and told you about MKULTRA wasn't passing on information that itself might've been manipulated or contained poison pills.

Hi tapitsbo
Thanks for the question. I will try to wrap my mind around it. When you say "poison pill" you're suggesting someone made Ken Hertz, who was 35 in 1980, make up a tale of having been at McGill University from about age 8 until 15 when he "had one acid trip and OBE too many" followed by a psychotic breakdown - all his close friends had heard this story and few if any knew what to make of it but no one seemed to doubt it as he could back it up with a lot of details --

Who do you think would have encouraged this fanciful tale, and for what reason? And what sort of poison pill effect would it have had on me at the time (1980) when I had never heard of MKULTRA - ?》That name did not come up, or begin to stick, until years later. I had heard of Dr Cameron's LSD and psychic driving experiments but at the time I barely suspected my own father had been a victim of them because the media coverage was focused on a handful of heavily damaged mental patients and my father was neither.

It was information that I tried to process, although at the time it made no sense to me. However Ken, who had first hand knowlege and would occasionally demonstrate his psychic abilities, ESP, and claimed to be telekinetic -- all of which was bizarre but appeared genuine -- also had reinvented himself as a medical researcher, and had a card allowing him access to certain files at the McGill medical library. He went there daily in the early 1980s and told me he had found "files on all of us" - i.e. everyone in a certain community of artists and filmmakers and others, including my twin brother and me, and he insisted there were files on us at McGill detailing experiments which were done on is while we were still in the womb. To me at the time this seemed impossible, outlandish and possibly a malicious fantasy.

But a poison pill as I understand it is disinformation inserted into a discussion with the aim of discrediting the person who repeats it.

A. I never repeated it. I dismissed it and tried to forget it.
B. I always remembered it, and twenty years later when I first discovered MKULTRA and the many ways I was connected into it, I read about Dr Mengele's CIA-funded genetic experiments on prenatal infants.

Where is the "poison pill" in all that?

[tapitsbo]

I think i mispoke, maybe I should have said poison well not poison pill. I definitely don't doubt the gist of what he said, I was more trying to gauge your level of trust in the small details of what he said. These programs involved dissimulation and counterintelligence procedures after all and it sounds as though he was a player to a certain extent. I asked about this to help correlate your story, not to corrode it.

I for my part have met people with DID and psi abilities in this city who appeared to be survivors.