Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

[Bruce Dazzling]

No. The adults in Gaza are not "too stupid and self-centered" to be cared about — most of them are suffering people who are doing the best they can to deal with the unjust and terrible conditions the Israeli occupation has put them under.

Hear, hear!

[Sounder]

Percival wrote...

What propaganda are you referring to? That Hamas is a terrorist organization and Israel has to somehow limit the opportunities for them to gather more arms to use against innocent Israeli citizens.

American citizens, as well as Israeli, as well as British, as well as every other ‘citizen’ around the world is not innocent as long as we enable and encourage psychopaths and sociopaths to run things because what, they get things done more effectively?

Sorry, I meant to mention something completely different, and have no desire to focus on Percival simply because he/she has a voice that is contrary to the consensus. (I like for those voices to be included in most threads (conversations) anyway.)

No, I wanted to consider the recent history of Erdogon and the frosty about face away from a long relationship between Turkey and Israel. But alas while I’m pretty ignorant about Turkish history, I’m thinking that Erdogon realized he was going to be made into a scapegoat for getting in the way of, oh something like; establishing Jerusalem as the capital of the World, ---- or something like that. So Erdogon figures his best option is to quickly take advantage of peoples fresh memories of Israeli passport thefts and wanton murdering in Gaza and Lebanon. That is, he offers up an alternate scapegoat, and well, -a lot of folk do not like Jews right now.

And I am very sad about that because my major mentors and teachers have been Jews, -crying in fact.

Percy, I personally don't think you a troll, I've enjoyed past interactions with you on the board & understand you've actually had experienced living there & feel pretty passionately about the issue, but I just don't see how the Israeli government can justify itself.

Well, you put a spokesperson in front of a microphone and he reads from a carefully worded script. Americans do it even better.

[JackRiddler]

Sorry, I meant to mention something completely different, and have no desire to focus on Percival simply because he/she has a voice that is contrary to the consensus.

Is there a better reason? This is a debate board, is it not?

[Searcher08]

Some of the most decent people I have ever met.

[Sounder]

JackRiddler wrote...

Is there a better reason? This is a debate board, is it not?

I’m not quite sure what ‘better reason’ refers too. I was simply thinking, earlier in the day about these events and determined to say something about or encourage consideration of background motivating influences in order to move the ‘conversation’ away from emotive outbursts and binary thinking.

One can only try.

Debating? Have at it, I only did a quick read of Percivals latest post and I think it is quite good, and I hope to respond, civilly, if the occasion presents itself.

[hava1]

i thought i posted but cant find it. well done job for the flotilla people.

imho hasbara is aimed domestically regardless of how it looks. i appreciated the distinction turky gov made bn the israeli people and its gov.

[lupercal]

Thanks Pere, here is the thing. In 1962 John F Kennedy did the same thing Israel is doing today against Cuba: imposing a blockade tp prevent a hostile state from acquiring lethal weaponry.

Ouch. Not to take you task personally Percival but that's a grotesque distortion of the truth. Kennedy basically gave his life to an effort to keep US jackals out of Cuba and Southeast Asia and resisted no less than four determined efforts by the CIA/Pentagon to provoke military conflict with Castro, nukes and all, including Bay of Pigs, Northwoods, the "missile crisis," and a fourth, less well-known operation, as copiously documented in James Douglass' JKF and the Unspeakable. Among their many reasons for eliminating him the CIA discovered Kennedy was conducting back-channel negotiations with Khrushchev and Castro to personally end the suicidal policy of mutually assured destruction his mil-intel advisors were hell bent on pursuing. Comparing JFK's posture toward Cuba to Israeli action in Gaza is worthy of the propaganda regularly catapulted by the Bushlers.

[Searcher08]

Sorry, I meant to mention something completely different, and have no desire to focus on Percival simply because he/she has a voice that is contrary to the consensus.

Is there a better reason? This is a debate board, is it not?

JR, dont want to go off topic, but for me at its best it can be more a dialogue board, where there are deeper connections made between people, cross-fertilisation of ideas etc. Of course an old saying about alligators and draining swamps comes to mind

[Sounder]

On a re-read, I may be hearing the tone in your voice better Jack.

Thats better.

(And, actually the tone and hence content, changed thanks to Searcher08's comment.)

[Sweejak]

Some of the most decent people I have ever met.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRcNhbKI ... bedded#%21

[Sweejak]

In 1962 John F Kennedy did the same thing Israel is doing today against Cuba: imposing a blockade tp prevent a hostile state from acquiring lethal weaponry.

Yeah I saw Regev or someone going off about Cuba and JFK. What parallel?

Did the USA intercept unarmed Soviet ships with guns firing and kill sailors in international waters? Gaza's ridiculous homemade bottle rockets are like nuclear tipped missiles? You've got about as much chance as getting hit my a Hamas missile as I do by a Commanche arrow. Last time I checked 13 Israelis had been killed by Qassam rockets. It's ironic then when the Israeli ambassador tells Spain, what's the big deal, you lost more people in car wrecks than were killed on the flotilla.

The CIA attacked Cuba, well ok, so far the parallel is pretty good, then the USSR and Cuba wanted to arm themselves, they say to fend off another attack, the US naturally enough sees this as aggressive rather than defensive. In reality it's both. We are on the threshold of war because the US can't understand why the Soviets want to have nukes on our doorstep, don't they know that only we, the chosen people of the USA, can have nukes on the USSR's doorstep. ONLY WE!
The deal that brought peace was that the US removed missiles from Turkey and agreed not to invade Cuba! Well, it's rather more complex but there is no parallel to what Israel is doing other than the use of the word "missile".

The organizer of the flotilla itself, Greta Berlin, admitted that it was NOT about humanitarian relief or the people of the Gaza, it was about getting international attention for an attempt to BREAK THE BLOCKADE, in other words they manufactured and staged and provoked this confrontation to get more attention to their cause de jour, break the blockade and end Israel's inspection regime which would mean unlimited shipping in to the Gaza resulting in unlimited arms supplies to Hamas militants.

Right, break the blockade. And the Freedom Riders only wanted to take a bus ride! Maybe the Nazis only wanted to put the Warsaw Ghetto on a diet. The inspection regime? Why is pasta blockaded, what about parts for generators, and it looks like grinders are classed as weapons. That inspection regime?

[justdrew]

...the people of the Gaza elected terrorists to represent them so they are being treated accordingly.

and the people of Israel elected terrorists long before that.

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” - David Ben-Gurion

to say nothing of the current batch.


of course camera says it's a fake quote, but it's in:
A concise history of the Middle East
By Arthur Goldschmidt, Lawrence Davidson
page 309

[chump]

[Laodicean]

Well, reading Percival's comments on the matter and everyone's following, I'll just say what I believe is pretty fucking obvious:

When people of religious faith (Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc) actually start practicing what they preach (and supposedly believe - the core tenants or Commandments)...

The days of killing, weapons, lying, greed, coveting thy neighbors land/resources, justifications for inhuman blockades and supposed self defense, and even laws... would no doubt be things of, hopefully, long forgotten memory.

Jew: Peace be with you
Muslim: And also with you

[sunny]

IDF Releases apparently doctored Flotilla audio; Press reports as fact

On 06.04.10, By Max.The IDF’s propaganda is getting stupider and stupider, and the media is enthusiastically playing along. This audio, which purports to show flotilla passengers telling the IDF to “go back to Auschwitz,” appears to have been doctored by the rosh katan at the IDF General Press Office.

The clip originally released by the IDF on May 31 of its exchange with the Mavi Marmara, which is featured below, shows the IDF warning the ship’s crew, “Mavi Marmara, you are appproaching an area of hostility which is under a naval blockade. The Gaza area coastal region and Gaza harbor are closed to all maritime traffic…” The Mavi Marmara responded to the IDF’s warning: “Negative, negative. Our destination is Gaza. Our destination is Gaza.” There was no reference to Auschwitz in the video the IDF released on May 31.



The original video released by the IDF on May 31

On June 4, the IDF released apparently doctored audio of its exchange with the Mavi Marmara. The clip the IDF released featured the same imagery from its previous clip, but the voice of the Israeli Navy dispatcher was dramatically different. And the reply from the Mavi Marmara sounded like an impersonation of an Arab by a mentally challenged pre-adolescent (both videos are still on the IDF’s YouTube channel even though they completely contradict each other).


The video apparently doctored by the IDF, released on June 4

Further, the IDF is claiming its “Aushwitz” audio is from the Mavi Marmara. Yet it includes a recording of Huwaida Arraf saying “we have permission from the Gaza port authority to enter.” Huwaida has confirmed to the Institute For Middle East Understanding that her voice appeared in the apparently doctored clip. Unfortunately for the IDF, Huwaida was on the Challenger One, not the Mavi Marmara. How can the IDF account for this inconvenient discrepancy?

The Israeli daily, Yedioth Ahronot, which means “latest news,” are in fact the latest idiots. They’ve reported the apparently doctored audio clip as fact. And so has Haaretz. Neither outlet made any effort to investigate the veracity of the IDF’s claims.

Either the mayor of Chelm is in charge of the IDF Press Office, or the Israeli military has something very ugly to hide.