zionists vs. truth

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Postby Et in Arcadia ego » Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:12 am

darkbeforedawn wrote:Thanks for the wonderful bafoonery nomo'brains---

Because nitwits such as yourself can't seem to keep their arugments straight....


Ad Hominem attacks only diffuse one's arguments, DBD..
"but I do know that you should remove my full name from your sig. Dig?" - Unnamed, Super Scary Persun, bbrrrrr....
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Postby darkbeforedawn » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:38 pm

Slim some of us are getting it.. Have you been to Barrett's website? Fantastic

http://mujca.com/

You're right. When posters here start to cloud the issue--accusing each other of antisemtism when we are trying to get the truth out about Israel and about 9-11 dispite monolithic censorship and media black outs--This is falling right into the PTB agenda. Set the dogs on each other and get a big laugh.
I'm sick of it. Real Jews need to stand up and shout back. Israel is a fascist racist aggressor and the United States is a corporate monster destroying peoples, cultures, and the environment for money for the very very few

These are the three truths. This is what the rest of us need to know.
NOW IS THE TIME TO MAKE A STAND.
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Postby dbeach » Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:23 pm

Had to look it up

entrainment=

Entrainment is defined as the tendency for two oscillating bodies to lock into phase so that they vibrate in harmony.

To go aboard a train.
1. To pull or draw along after itself.
2. Chemistry To carry (suspended particles, for example) along in a current.

so brain entrainment means??

hookin my brain to the washing YIKES!

so as to be in harmony with the fascist soup de jour

YHEHCK!


entrainment reminded me of entrapment or entertainment

HMMM.
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Postby nomo » Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:40 pm

All I was asking for was a little more caution when referring to "zionists". It cuts both ways: real anti-Semites claiming they "only" have a problem with Israel, and people who genuinely *are* concerned with the state of Sirael running around shouting "zionism" in an unqualified way. I wasn't trying to accuse anyone of anything, just pointing out that DBD's simplistic posts weren't helping, and were even giving me the wrong impression.

Yeah, musta been those "nomobrains", very funny stuff, that.
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sat Jan 13, 2007 8:25 pm

I'm sick of it. Real Jews need to stand up and shout back. Israel is a fascist racist aggressor and the United States is a corporate monster destroying peoples, cultures, and the environment for money for the very very few


We can winge about Zionists as much as we like but the only people who can really make this argument stick without the "anti semeticism" tag are Jewish.

The self hating Jew argument could fall apart if enough Jewish anti Zionists pointed out that such aggression against them was actually really "self hate." When the "Jewish" state considers revoking protections for its own citizens cos their own convictions that is REAL self hate.

Not the bullshit argument some of those who are pro Israeli agression use.
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Postby AlicetheKurious » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:22 am

Joe, are you suggesting that the perspectives of Palestinians and other victims of Zionism should not be included in discussions of what "Zionism" is?

Maybe only men should be allowed to discuss the implications of sexism. Only Whites should explore the moral dimensions of racism. Only Germans should legitimately debate the ethics of Nazism...etc.

Anybody else notice how views that make perfect, obvious moral and logical sense in any other context, provoke hysteria in the context of Zionism? Ya think that's accidental?

Yet I can't think in any other way. If it's right, it's right. If it's wrong, it's wrong. If killing civilians to frighten people into making political concessions is terrorism, then it's terrorism whoever does it, yes, even if the killers are Jewish. It's the crime that defines an act, not the religion, race or nationality of the criminal.

Am I missing something here? Why is this incredibly simple concept so difficult for so many to grasp?
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who is the killer

Postby Trifecta » Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:37 am

Circumstised, a cautionary tale of circumstances.

Who is the killer when the killing is done by a man who takes orders from another man, agreed by many men. Who does the killing if the bullet is made in one country and the gun in another, or the bomb, the plane it arrives in or the gunner who presses the button.

All are complicit. None are ever responsibly brought to justice.

Ask yourself which is the most repugnent:

A xenophobic nazi dragging his tattoed knuckles acroos the floor in search for jews, blacks, arabs, gays under the bed.

The jewish intellectual expounding the virtues of the pure race over the neccesity of genocide in the name of zion?

The neo con advocating perpetual war to sustain the oil lines, power, greed and corpocracy

The media hack allowing the pr spin of whatever corruption tptb which to manifest on the populace, fat cheque over redunancy

The lawyer crafting draconian enforcement laws, the cop that has to carry them out, the patsy caught in the trap?

etc, etc. who pulls the trigger of distain and owns responsibility for it?

Controlling powers make the decisions, it just so happens that those powers happen to be in the most part circumsticed. and perhaps that is where the heart of the problem is and will always be.
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:33 am

Joe, are you suggesting that the perspectives of Palestinians and other victims of Zionism should not be included in discussions of what "Zionism" is?


Zionism is a word with so much baggage attatched in that it only applies to Israeli aggression as part of the extension of a Jewish State or Empire in the middle east.

Calling it Zionism gives it some religious cred and a tag word for all the Nazis in the west to jump on. If you think those people give a flying fuck what happens to anyone in the middle east you are sadly mistaken.

Its simply neo colonialist fascism, and to call it by any name gives it some sort of glamour and legitamacy as something other than yet another example of stupid dumbfuck banal thuggery.

And it makes all sorts of assumptions about what is going on. Who is using who here, Israel using the US for its purposes or the other way around?

Maybe only men should be allowed to discuss the implications of sexism. Only Whites should explore the moral dimensions of racism. Only Germans should legitimately debate the ethics of Nazism...etc


Yeah all jews are by extension Zionists... :roll:

the more I think about this the more I see Zionism fitting into the same category as the Holocaust.

Something that identifies one particular groups suffering as somehow more special and significant than another.

Its Zionism cos the Jews are doing it, and thats somehow worse than what happens in Africa, the assaults on the indigenous people of West Papua, or Mindinao?

They have no keyword to call on to claim added legitamacy to their suffering.

There are humans doing brutal things to other humans and Zionism as a concept just distracts from the violence.

People hear it and think "Evil Israel" or (and this is as bad as any other racism) "Evil Jews" or "Anti semeticism".

It is a form of mind control and it seperates people into ideological camps instead of giving them a chance to deal with the facts as they are.

if you can't see that you are missing something important.

My favorite T Shirt, its falling to rags now cos its 20 years old and worbn to death, has a picture of a school crossing, a bomb falling with a star of david on it, and the words "Palestinian Children some don't even make it to school."

I didn't need the word Zionism back then to be able to tell that this was bullshit, like Pinochet, like the Holocaust, like the genocide in rawanda and a truckload of other crap. i had never heard of it cept through Bob Marley.

Does anyone here give a fuck abut the plight of poor farmers in Equador on the Columbian Border? No of course not. Have you even heard what is happening there?

I never want to use the word again.

Its the same old shit, there is nothing special about that particular conflict, its the same sad ugly story and the ideology that drives it has its own defense hidden in its name.

No one can deny Israel Aggression. call it that thats what it is.

Not some bullshit name.

When Bob Marley said he wanted to be Iron like a Lion In zion, he did not mean he wanted to invade Palestine steal their land and dispossess them.

For the last four or five years, probably longer, Palestinian politicians have been coming on the abc and stating their case, about the abuse and destruction they suffer at the hands of the IDF implementing the Israel govts policies, sometimes they are interviewed to the sound of cconflivct in the background.

I have never once heard one of them use the term Zionism.

Its a bullshit meme designed to distract from the conflict and split any effective resistance to Israel's aggression, well right wing psycho's that run and drive Israel's aggression.

Anybody else notice how views that make perfect, obvious moral and logical sense in any other context, provoke hysteria in the context of Zionism? Ya think that's accidental?


Yes. And that Hysteria wouldn't be there if people used the term Israeli aggression would it?

Never was.
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Postby darkbeforedawn » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:03 pm

Translation of above post: if people stopped using the Z word, then we could just ignore the ongoing genocide like we do all over the rest of the world. Good plan Joe. Remember, these particular aggressors are threatening all of us with nuclear annihilation...
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Postby darkbeforedawn » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:22 pm

And to continue my thought, the reason the Z word must be spoken, is because it is THIS movement and these individuals behind it, who have seized control of our media and our congress and are using our resources to defend their plan for the middle east. No one here is benefiting from from these wars. Listen to what Wayne Madsen says about these zionists here in the US
January 13-16, 2007 -- The neo-cons and their task masters have drawn a major line in the sand.

America's greatest living former President Jimmy Carter is under attack by individuals who favor the narrow interests of a foreign country -- Israel -- against the wider interests of the United States. People with names like Dershowitz, Foxman, and Lieberman are content to shed the blood of America's military men and women, not for the interests of people in Oshkosh, Wisconsin; Austin, Texas; or Corvallis, Oregon but for narrow-agenda right-wing elements in Tel Aviv, Netanya, and Jerusalem, Israel. They and their money pipelines of the America Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) are engaged in a huge propaganda effort to immerse the United States deeper into the Iraq quagmire and fight Binyamin Netanyahu's "wet dream" wars in Iran and Syria.



America's greatest living former President under attack by those who favor Israeli narrow interests over American wider goals.

Well, the patience of the American people is wearing thin. If Senators Lieberman and McCain want to represent the interests of Israel's right-wing expansionists and fascists, this editor will personally drive them both to Dulles International Airport and put them on the next plane to Ben Gurion International, where they can announce at a press conference that they are running for the Knesset as members of the Likud Party. Then, they can vote to commit Israeli troops, not Americans, to fight wars in Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

The last-ditch propaganda assault by the neo-cons does not stop with the AIPAC and Anti-Defamation League spin machines in Washington. Hollywood is all of a sudden interested in making a movie about Boris Berezovsky agent Alexander Litvinenko, the poisoned ex-Russian agent who was involved in a slimy network of European right-wing disinformation artists and provocateurs and Chechen terrorists. Hopefully, Johnny Depp will not be lulled into the anti-Moscow propaganda of the neo-cons and Russian-Israeli mobsters exiled in Britain and Israel when he stars in his forthcoming movie about Litvinenko. If he does, he should have remained in the belly of the sea monster from his last pic.

On Saturday, January 27, the American people will mobilize against the Bush administration's war policies at a major demonstration in Washington, DC. Major themes are Ending the War on Iraq and No War on Iran. This editor and our progressive journalist colleagues from DC and around the country will be supporting the march. Join us in Washington on January 27.
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Postby sunny » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:12 pm

Criticising Israel inevitably puts the principled critic in uncormfortably close proximity to nazis. This is what keeps many good people silent on I/P.

There is a huge diffence in perspective, which is obvious: Nazis could care less about Palestinians, who are just as brown and "other" as black people and Jews in their eyes. At the same time, if you reversed the situation, ie Jews being the victims, principled critics would side with Israel and nazis would find a way to justify such treatment. This wouldn't mean the nazis identified with Palestinians, just that Jews are at the top of their list of people to hate.

So each person has a choice to make if their eyes are opened to the crimes of Israel- speak out and risk being associated with nazis, in which case your work is cut out for you when you endeavor to make the important distinction between perspectives, OR: remain silent and hope for the best.
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Postby AlicetheKurious » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:43 pm

hope for the best


Doesn't sound like much of a plan. It sure isn't what the bad guys are doing, maybe that's why the world is going to all to hell?

Joe, all Jews are most emphatically NOT zionists, any more than all men are sexists, all Whites are racists and all Germans are Nazis. You misunderstood me.

Zionism is what it's called. It's what it is. Calling it "Israeli aggression", to me, misses the point, because it's an oxymoron. Zionism created Israel, and Israel does what it was designed to do, from back when it was but a gleam in Theodor Herzl's eye. "Which land, inhabited by non-white, unimportant people, can 'the Jews' colonize?" Just like apartheid was called by its own name, zionism is specific enough, and its implications are enormous enough, to be called by its own name.
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Postby AnnaLivia » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:22 pm

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Postby sunny » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:42 pm

Anna, the situation is what it is. I was stating a fact, not trying to "win majorities." I'm not a politician and have no desire to be one. The truth is, people who care about the Palestinians criticize Israel, and nazis who hate Jews criticize Israel. That puts the two camps in "uncomfortably close proximity" nothing else. By concerted effort, by design, the two camps are lumped together, not because they are brothers-in-arms, but because it is beneficial to the perps to smear one camp with the hatred espoused by the other, and this works to keep a genocidal pogrom from in front of the eyes of the people. It works to keep good people silent because they do not hate Jews and do not want to be thought of as doing so. I think you know that was the point of my comment.
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Postby AnnaLivia » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:08 pm

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