Taking responsibility for counteracting bigotry in our midst

[FourthBase]

P.S.: I should clarify that I don’t currently take a position on whether there was any Israeli involvement in the attacks of 9/11. I have not yet investigated the alleged evidence on this issue. However, I think a lot of people’s fear of the 9/11 Truth movement revolves around fear of the possibility of Israeli involvement, or at least fear of the possible consequences of people believing in same. To allay the latter fear, it is not enough to disclaim Jew-hating. We need to show that we care, by taking responsibility for counteracting bigotry. In my opinion, those of us who do believe that Israel was involved in the 9/11 attacks have an extra responsibility to counteract, not just disclaim, what would otherwise be the likely bigoted fallout of their position.

That is a good idea.

But...

"I have not yet investigated the alleged evidence on this issue."

It's been six fucking years, I call major bullshit on that.

Bollyn is the source of the rumor that the Popular Mechanics editor with the name of Chertoff is the cousin of Michael Chertoff. People still cite that (I'm thinking of the Godfather of 9/11 Truth, Alex Jones) but Ben Chertoff denies it. Bollyn may not get respect anymore but some of his ideas do.

They are cousins. Supposedly distant and non-acquainted.

What exact roles did they play? Most of the stuff I've seen bandied about has been discredited or unproven. Specifics?

Oh, puh-lease.

http://www.911myths.com/html/israeli_ar ... spies.html

Yeah, what a debunking.

[smiths]

careful jeff

Does that mean I'm guilty of "division"? I hope the fuck so.

clearly you are talking about a bigger tent, but my fear is that the smaller tent closer to home is being divided,

attempts to keep neo-nazis away are admirable but i cant help feeling that the baby is getting thrown with the bathwater,

especially when the most divisive poster on the board - doodad - seems clearly emboldened by what looks like tacit approval from the gracious host,

i for one am intelligent and sensative enough to know the difference between a critique of israeli actions in lebanon for instance,
and an anti-semitic hit-piece masquarading as a critique of israeli actions

in short we are adults, not children


please consider

[populistindependent]

I have to say though, that it seems to me that there is no populist appetite for anti-semitism. Most of us are rightfully appalled at anti-semitism. In this regard, there are no real dangers of a sudden large scale anti-semitic backlash. I hope.

The danger lies in conditioning the public to scape-goat groups of people. Once you have people doing that, the target can be changed later. There was no broad public animosity toward immigrants a few years ago, for example, but there is now. Hell I can remember when liberals weren't scape-goated and hated.

Once the public is sucked into this, the people in power can insert new groups to hate as suits their purposes.

[8bitagent]

Trotting out, yet again, this sort of fiction, appears to equate 9/11 truthers to anti-semitism.

Apparently, we the people, are too stupid to see that the Zionists that had a role in this event, we mere patsies.

Now why would you want to do that, Doodad?

What exact roles did they play? Most of the stuff I've seen bandied about has been discredited or unproven. Specifics?

I'll keep this simple for you. I don't know the "exact" roles, but let's take the fact that the Mossad had operatives, depending upon which theory you prefer, either babysitting the alleged hijackers (to create/maintain a legend), or were keeping a watchful eye on them. This is but one example.

Now, why should this be hidden, or glossed over as anti-semitic? Now I am not privy to Mossad's role in this. Maybe you are, but I can only go by public sources. If or when they get legitimately debunked, then fine, but until then I keep an open mind about it.

Pretty well discredited

http://www.911myths.com/html/israeli_ar ... spies.html

911myths believes Pakistani/Saudi financing of 9/11 is a hoax too.

I wouldnt believe a word they say.

Claiming there was no Israeli spies in America is ridiculous.

Why else did they live in close promixity to the hijackers in Florida? Coinkydink?

I HATE anti Semetism, I hate the "Jew this, Jew that"...

but like al Qaeda's role, Saudi and ISI role, I will not gloss over the alarming connections of Israeli security firms and Mossad to 9/11.

[8bitagent]

Like Gouda, I have never considered Eric Hufschmid and Christopher Bollyn at all respectable either. I wonder whether the author of the original piece is naive, misinformed or disingenous.

The rest of the article has some fair points, although I think he misses the background and context, my opinion of which I sought to supply above.

Speaking of neo-nazi or white supremacist militia groups, they probably believe their alphabet agency contacts are indeed fellow travellers, supporting them because of a shared ideology. They may even, on occasion, be correct in this belief.

I think its a bit complicated you know. A little bit more complicated than, "you can't believe all those "conspiracists," they're all anti-semitic dontcha know."

Well the FBI used neo Nazis to help carry out OKC 1995

And Nazis and Wahabist/Mulsim brotherhood/Islamic terror goes wayyy back

The no planers, the Jew haters(Bollyn, Hufsmind, Iamthewitness) are dividers...

sadly, theyve also done some amazing work.

But Debunkers, official government apologists, anti conspiracists,
no planers and Jew haters ALL deserve eachother and are anti truth

[Doodad]

careful jeff

Does that mean I'm guilty of "division"? I hope the fuck so.

clearly you are talking about a bigger tent, but my fear is that the smaller tent closer to home is being divided,

attempts to keep neo-nazis away are admirable but i cant help feeling that the baby is getting thrown with the bathwater,

especially when the most divisive poster on the board - doodad - seems clearly emboldened by what looks like tacit approval from the gracious host,

i for one am intelligent and sensative enough to know the difference between a critique of israeli actions in lebanon for instance,
and an anti-semitic hit-piece masquarading as a critique of israeli actions

in short we are adults, not children


please consider

You and GM citizen have said basically the same thing here; that somehow I am getting preferential treatment and being "allowed," to do something which is somehow nefarious.

This is of course absurd.

My question in return would have to be why the two of you hold so dear the right to have such tripe continue to be respectable. Because that it is surely what it seems like.

"Emboldened," implies I was scared to say something. My history here should put the lie to that canard.

[Doodad]

I will not gloss over the alarming connections of Israeli security firms and Mossad to 9/11.

The point is, what exactly has been proven and is more than just bad jacketing and innuendo? Christ, to hear some tell it, every single Israeli who ever was in the States is a fucking Mossad agent. Do you not see how absurd that has become sans any REAL proof of anything?

[8bitagent]

I will not gloss over the alarming connections of Israeli security firms and Mossad to 9/11.

The point is, what exactly has been proven and is more than just bad jacketing and innuendo? Christ, to hear some tell it, every single Israeli who ever was in the States is a fucking Mossad agent. Do you not see how absurd that has become sans any REAL proof of anything?

Like how every Muslim charity is "al Qaeda"

The problem lies when so many mainstream reports quote CIA officials citing Mossad had penetrated American networks in 2000-2001, and even Mossad trying to say they penetrated al Qaeda, and warned the CIA.

Im PERFECTLY willing to say Israel's role may have been to STOP 9/11

We know the first victim of 9/11 was Daniel Lewin, shot in the face by one of the hijackers on flight 11. Lewin's company was Akamai(which runs myspace, defense company sites, etc) and Lewin was a top anti hijacker commando.

Because I talk about Nick Berg, Mossad, Israeli communications, Israeli spies, Israeli security all involved in 9/11...involved doesnt mean evil.

Robert Wright is involved in 9/11, but because he was trying to stop the terror financing.

[Doodad]

I will not gloss over the alarming connections of Israeli security firms and Mossad to 9/11.

The point is, what exactly has been proven and is more than just bad jacketing and innuendo? Christ, to hear some tell it, every single Israeli who ever was in the States is a fucking Mossad agent. Do you not see how absurd that has become sans any REAL proof of anything?

Like how every Muslim charity is "al Qaeda"

The problem lies when so many mainstream reports quote CIA officials citing Mossad had penetrated American networks in 2000-2001, and even Mossad trying to say they penetrated al Qaeda, and warned the CIA.

Im PERFECTLY willing to say Israel's role may have been to STOP 9/11

We know the first victim of 9/11 was Daniel Lewin, shot in the face by one of the hijackers on flight 11. Lewin's company was Akamai(which runs myspace, defense company sites, etc) and Lewin was a top anti hijacker commando.

Because I talk about Nick Berg, Mossad, Israeli communications, Israeli spies, Israeli security all involved in 9/11...involved doesnt mean evil.

But you see, you are still being general; not nailing it down. This allows the creeps in. Espionage among allies goes on all the time around the world; it's the nature of the beast. Somehow this is forgotten when 911 is mentioned and it becomes some whisper campaign disguised as a smoking gun. people who would never believe a word they CIA says suddenly believes if it if someone says they saw a document etc etc.

[smiths]

My history here should put the lie to that canard.

ummm, canard, doodad sure does use that word a lot, wonder what it means?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canard

Canard is French for duck, and is often used to refer to a deliberately false story, originating from an abbreviated form of an old French idiom, "vendre un canard à moitié," meaning "to half-sell a duck." It may refer to:

* Canard (aeronautics), flight control surfaces mounted at the front of an aircraft or an aircraft bearing such surfaces
* Antisemitic canard, a false story about Jews
* Le Canard enchaîné, a satirical French newspaper. The newspaper gave itself birth to another meaning for canard: newspaper.

helter skelter

[jingofever]

They are cousins. Supposedly distant and non-acquainted.

Ben Chertoff says they might be distantly related, "We might be distant relatives, 15 times removed, but then again, so might you and I." Also:

As for what my mom said: When Chertoff was nominated to be head of homeland security it was the first I'd heard of him, and the same for my family (and, FYI, we'd already sent the 9/11 issue to the press by then!). My dad and I thought there might be some distant relation. When Chris Bollyn called and asked my mom if there was a relation (introducing himself as only "Chris"), she said "they might be distant cousins." Like much in the conspiracy world, this was taken WAY out of context. (Another case in point: Bollyn called me earlier and asked "Were you the senior researcher on the story?" I said, "I guess so," -- that's not a title I have ever used, nor is it at all common in magazine journalism, but I was the research editor at the time, so it kinda made sense.) Nonetheless, I was one of 9 reporters on the story, not counting editors, photo researchers, photo editors, copy editors, layout designers, production managers, fact-checkers, etc., etc., etc. who worked on this story.

[OnoI812]

We might be distant relatives, 15 times removed, but then again, so might you and I. Bottom line is I've never met him, never communicated with him, and nobody I know in my family has ever met or communicated with him.

In other words...the "nyah, nyah, nyah, I don't care what my mother said, you can't prove he contacted me" defense.

[jingofever]

In other words...the "nyah, nyah, nyah, I don't care what my mother said, you can't prove he contacted me" defense.

No, he says that Bollyn either lied about (the phrase I prefer) or misrepresented his mother's response, which was: "they might be distant cousins." He turned distant cousin into cousin and dropped the might to make it a certainty. I'll add that I trust Ben Chertoff more than Chris Bollyn.

[Doodad]

In other words...the "nyah, nyah, nyah, I don't care what my mother said, you can't prove he contacted me" defense.

No, he says that Bollyn either lied about (the phrase I prefer) or misrepresented his mother's response, which was: "they might be distant cousins." He turned distant cousin into cousin and dropped the might to make it a certainty. I'll add that I trust Ben Chertoff more than Chris Bollyn.

He has made up a lot of shit. There should be no reason to do so. That alone makes him untrustworthy

[OnoI812]

In other words...the "nyah, nyah, nyah, I don't care what my mother said, you can't prove he contacted me" defense.

No, he says that Bollyn either lied about (the phrase I prefer) or misrepresented his mother's response, which was: "they might be distant cousins." He turned distant cousin into cousin and dropped the might to make it a certainty. I'll add that I trust Ben Chertoff more than Chris Bollyn.

From your link-

Benjamin's mother in Pelham, New York, however, was more willing to talk. Asked if Benjamin was related to the new Secretary of Homeland Security, Judy said, "Yes, of course, he is a cousin."

Ben can say anything he wants after the fact, he took no part in the phone conversation, nor did he record it...

Timeline

Jones asks..gets a "no" reply

Bollyn goes around gatekeepers- gets a "Yes" reply

Ben Chertoff answers, gives a "maybe" reply, but assures us it doesn't matter anyway, because there
was no funny business, honest...