The 9/11 Thread To End All 9/11 Threads

[Doodad]

deleted

[orz]

Doodad, poor Doodad. Mike Willam's 911myths.com is strongly suspected of being a disinfo site. Don't you have a better cite? Something remotely legitimate?

Unbiased? Neutral? Non-Zionist?

Any site which disagrees with a given 9/11 theory will be "strongly suspected of being a disinfo site" by a beliver in that theory. What you're saying is "back this claim up but without citing a source which makes this claim" which is of course impossible.

[Doodad]

Doodad, poor Doodad. Mike Willam's 911myths.com is strongly suspected of being a disinfo site. Don't you have a better cite? Something remotely legitimate?

Unbiased? Neutral? Non-Zionist?

Any site which disagrees with a given 9/11 theory will be "strongly suspected of being a disinfo site" by a beliver in that theory. What you're saying is "back this claim up but without citing a source which makes this claim" which is of course impossible.

Thanks for saying it. This guy has a peculiar way of "inverting," stuff that way which I find oddly familiar.

[FourthBase]

Facts are facts. Refute 'em or hush up.

The again, I suspect you've never let a fact get in your way before.

WHAT facts?

WHAT does your precious link debunk?

[slimmouse]

I love sites like 9/11myths.

Kinda like doodad. They act as barometers for our focus.

simply look at the hard questions that they refuse to answer in an honest fashion

[Doodad]

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[Doodad]

deleted

[Brentos]

great thread 8bit. Thanks for coalescing everything so tightly. Nick Berg is an interesting fella. He allegedly had ties to both US and israeli intelligence IIRC.

Any more condensed info on him?
What about the jewish american cop who supposedly heard some men speaking in yiddish about an upcoming attack at a jewish cemetary in the states?

I really dont see how evidence of israeli knowledge or involvement in the attacks is anti-semitic. By that rationale the official story is anti-arab and every other alternate theory is anti-gentile. Also just because someone is american, israeli or saudi, it doesn't mean that they are representative of the whole.

I'm sympathetic though to due diligence about filtering info which tries to discriminate both arabs and jews, which there are manifold.
I don't see anything you have presented, with your comments on top, as anti-semtic or anti-arab in the least.

[Doodad]

deleted

[Jeff]

Well of course it's not by itself but it is a platform for others. The real question then becomes the accuracy of the info about the foreknowledge/involvement. In my research it has all turned out to me unfounded speculation of the most vulgar sort.

Then I suggest you need to do more research, and I insist you stop trying to erase the line between honest examination of Israeli intelligence and anti-Semitism.

A few mainstream cites from Cooperative Research:

December 2000-April 2001: Israeli Investigators Deported After Identifying Two Hijackers

According to later German reports, “a whole horde of Israeli counter-terror investigators, posing as students, [follow] the trails of Arab terrorists and their cells in the United States.… In the town of Hollywood, Florida, they [identify]… Atta and Marwan Alshehhi as possible terrorists. Agents [live] in the vicinity of the apartment of the two seemingly normal flight school students, observing them around the clock.” Supposedly, around April, the Israeli agents are discovered and deported, terminating the investigation. [Der Spiegel (Hamburg), 10/1/2002]

March 23, 2001: DEA Issues Alert to Look Out for Israeli Spies

The Office of National Drug Control Policy issues a National Security Alert describing “apparent attempts by Israeli nationals to learn about government personnel and office layouts.” This later becomes known through a leaked DEA document called “Suspicious Activities Involving Israeli Art Students at DEA Facilities.” A crackdown ensues and by June, around 120 Israelis are apprehended. More are apprehended later.

August 23, 2001: Mossad Reportedly Gives CIA List of Terrorist Living in US; at Least Four 9/11 Hijackers Named

According to German newspapers, the Mossad gives the CIA a list of 19 terrorists living in the US and say that they appear to be planning to carry out an attack in the near future. It is unknown if these are the 19 9/11 hijackers or if the number is a coincidence. However, four names on the list are known, and these four will be 9/11 hijackers: Nawaf Alhazmi, Khalid Almihdhar, Marwan Alshehhi, and Mohamed Atta. [Die Zeit (Hamburg), 10/1/2002; Der Spiegel (Hamburg), 10/1/2002; BBC, 10/2/2002; Ha'aretz, 10/3/2002] The Mossad appears to have learned about this through its “art student spy ring.” Yet apparently, this warning and list are not treated as particularly urgent by the CIA and the information is not passed on to the FBI. It is unclear whether this warning influenced the decision to add Alhazmi and Almihdhar to a terrorism watch list on this same day, and if so, why only those two. [Der Spiegel (Hamburg), 10/1/2002] Israel has denied that there were any Mossad agents in the US. [Ha'aretz, 10/3/2002]

3:56 p.m. September 11, 2001: Five Apparent Israeli Spies Arrested for Puzzling Behavior at Time of First WTC Attack

Five Israelis are arrested for “puzzling behavior” related to the WTC attacks. Shortly after an FBI lookout bulletin was issued for a van with the words “Urban Moving Systems” written on the side, officers with the East Rutherford Police Department in New Jersey stop the van after matching the license plate number with the one given in the bulletin. According to the police report, Officer Scott DeCarlo and Sgt. Dennis Rivelli approach the van and demand the driver exit the vehicle. The driver, Sivan Kurzberg, does not obey after being asked several more times, so the police physically remove Kurzberg and four other men from the van and handcuff them. They have not been told the reasons for their arrest, but Kurzberg tells them, “We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.” Again before the police have made any mention of the 9/11 attacks, another one of the arrested men says, “[W]e were on the West Side Highway in New York City during the incident.” In fact, it will later be determined they were on the roof of a building at Liberty State Park, watching and videotaping the first crash into the WTC (see Shortly After 8:46 a.m. September 11, 2001). [Bergen Record, 9/12/2001; Ha'aretz, 9/17/2001; CounterPunch, 2/7/2007] The FBI and additional police quickly arrive. They shut down the section of Route 3 in East Rutherford where the van was stopped and evacuate a nearby hotel as a security precaution. [Bergen Record, 9/12/2001] One man is found with $4,700 in cash hidden in his sock, another has two foreign passports on him, and a box cutter is found in the van. [ABC News, 6/21/2002] Another has pictures of the men standing with the burning wreckage of the WTC in the background. [Forward, 3/15/2002] All five identify themselves as Israeli citizens and claim to be working for the New Jersey-based Urban Moving Systems company. In addition to the driver Sivan Kurzberg, the others are identified as Paul Kurzberg (Sivan’s brother), Oded Ellner, Omer Marmari, and Yaron Shmuel. The men are detained but not charged. [Forward, 3/15/2002; ABC News, 6/21/2002] The next day it will be reported that “bomb-sniffing dogs reacted as if they had detected explosives.” An investigator high up in the Bergen County law enforcement hierarchy will say in 2006, “There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted…. It looked like they’re hooked in with this [referring to the 9/11 attacks]. It looked like they knew what was going to happen.…It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park.” [Bergen Record, 9/12/2001] The FBI will later conclude at least two of the five are Mossad agents and that all were on a Mossad surveillance mission. The FBI interrogates them for weeks. [Forward, 3/15/2002] They are held on immigration violation charges, but will be released 71 days later (see November 20, 2001).

September 14, 2001: Head of Shadowy Company Flees US

Dominick Suter, owner of the company Urban Moving Systems, flees the country to Israel. The FBI later tells ABC News, “Urban Moving may have been providing cover for an Israeli intelligence operation.” Suter has been tied to the five Israeli agents caught filming the WTC attack. The FBI had questioned Suter around September 12, removing boxes of documents and a dozen computer hard drives. However, when the FBI returns a few days later, he is gone. [New Jersey Department of Law and Public Safety, 12/13/2001; Forward, 3/15/2002; ABC News, 6/21/2002]

March 5, 2002: Israeli Spies Reportedly Tracked 9/11 Hijackers

It is reported that many spies in the uncovered Israeli spy ring seemed to have been trailing the 9/11 hijackers. At the very least, they were in close proximity. For instance, five Israeli spies are intercepted in the tiny town of Hollywood, Florida, and four 9/11 hijackers are known to have spent time in Hollywood, Florida. [Le Monde (Paris), 3/5/2002; Reuters, 3/5/2002; Jane's Intelligence Digest, 3/15/2002] In one case, some Israeli spies lived at 4220 Sheridan Street, only a few hundred feet from where Mohamed Atta was living at 3389 Sheridan Street. Israeli spies appear to have been close to at least ten of the 19 9/11 hijackers. [Salon, 5/7/2002]

March 15, 2002: Jewish Magazine Says Israelis Spied in US on Radical Muslims

Forward, a US publication with a large Jewish audience, admits that there has been an Israeli spy ring in the US. [Forward, 3/15/2002] This is a reversal of their earlier stance. [Forward, 12/21/2001] But, “far from pointing to Israeli spying against US government and military facilities, as reported in Europe last week, the incidents in question appear to represent a case of Israelis in the United States spying on a common enemy, radical Islamic networks suspected of links to Middle East terrorism.” [Forward, 3/15/2002]

[Doodad]

Well of course it's not by itself but it is a platform for others. The real question then becomes the accuracy of the info about the foreknowledge/involvement. In my research it has all turned out to me unfounded speculation of the most vulgar sort.

Then I suggest you need to do more research, and I insist you stop trying to erase the line between honest examination of Israeli intelligence and anti-Semitism.

A few mainstream cites from Cooperative Research:

December 2000-April 2001: Israeli Investigators Deported After Identifying Two Hijackers

According to later German reports, “a whole horde of Israeli counter-terror investigators, posing as students, [follow] the trails of Arab terrorists and their cells in the United States.… In the town of Hollywood, Florida, they [identify]… Atta and Marwan Alshehhi as possible terrorists. Agents [live] in the vicinity of the apartment of the two seemingly normal flight school students, observing them around the clock.” Supposedly, around April, the Israeli agents are discovered and deported, terminating the investigation. [Der Spiegel (Hamburg), 10/1/2002]

March 23, 2001: DEA Issues Alert to Look Out for Israeli Spies

The cover of the DEA report, as depicted on television.The cover of the DEA report, as depicted on television. [Source: Fox News]The Office of National Drug Control Policy issues a National Security Alert describing “apparent attempts by Israeli nationals to learn about government personnel and office layouts.” This later becomes known through a leaked DEA document called “Suspicious Activities Involving Israeli Art Students at DEA Facilities.” A crackdown ensues and by June, around 120 Israelis are apprehended. More are apprehended later.

August 23, 2001: Mossad Reportedly Gives CIA List of Terrorist Living in US; at Least Four 9/11 Hijackers Named

According to German newspapers, the Mossad gives the CIA a list of 19 terrorists living in the US and say that they appear to be planning to carry out an attack in the near future. It is unknown if these are the 19 9/11 hijackers or if the number is a coincidence. However, four names on the list are known, and these four will be 9/11 hijackers: Nawaf Alhazmi, Khalid Almihdhar, Marwan Alshehhi, and Mohamed Atta. [Die Zeit (Hamburg), 10/1/2002; Der Spiegel (Hamburg), 10/1/2002; BBC, 10/2/2002; Ha'aretz, 10/3/2002] The Mossad appears to have learned about this through its “art student spy ring.” Yet apparently, this warning and list are not treated as particularly urgent by the CIA and the information is not passed on to the FBI. It is unclear whether this warning influenced the decision to add Alhazmi and Almihdhar to a terrorism watch list on this same day, and if so, why only those two. [Der Spiegel (Hamburg), 10/1/2002] Israel has denied that there were any Mossad agents in the US. [Ha'aretz, 10/3/2002]

3:56 p.m. September 11, 2001: Five Apparent Israeli Spies Arrested for Puzzling Behavior at Time of First WTC Attack

Five Israelis are arrested for “puzzling behavior” related to the WTC attacks. Shortly after an FBI lookout bulletin was issued for a van with the words “Urban Moving Systems” written on the side, officers with the East Rutherford Police Department in New Jersey stop the van after matching the license plate number with the one given in the bulletin. According to the police report, Officer Scott DeCarlo and Sgt. Dennis Rivelli approach the van and demand the driver exit the vehicle. The driver, Sivan Kurzberg, does not obey after being asked several more times, so the police physically remove Kurzberg and four other men from the van and handcuff them. They have not been told the reasons for their arrest, but Kurzberg tells them, “We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.” Again before the police have made any mention of the 9/11 attacks, another one of the arrested men says, “[W]e were on the West Side Highway in New York City during the incident.” In fact, it will later be determined they were on the roof of a building at Liberty State Park, watching and videotaping the first crash into the WTC (see Shortly After 8:46 a.m. September 11, 2001). [Bergen Record, 9/12/2001; Ha'aretz, 9/17/2001; CounterPunch, 2/7/2007] The FBI and additional police quickly arrive. They shut down the section of Route 3 in East Rutherford where the van was stopped and evacuate a nearby hotel as a security precaution. [Bergen Record, 9/12/2001] One man is found with $4,700 in cash hidden in his sock, another has two foreign passports on him, and a box cutter is found in the van. [ABC News, 6/21/2002] Another has pictures of the men standing with the burning wreckage of the WTC in the background. [Forward, 3/15/2002] All five identify themselves as Israeli citizens and claim to be working for the New Jersey-based Urban Moving Systems company. In addition to the driver Sivan Kurzberg, the others are identified as Paul Kurzberg (Sivan’s brother), Oded Ellner, Omer Marmari, and Yaron Shmuel. The men are detained but not charged. [Forward, 3/15/2002; ABC News, 6/21/2002] The next day it will be reported that “bomb-sniffing dogs reacted as if they had detected explosives.” An investigator high up in the Bergen County law enforcement hierarchy will say in 2006, “There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted…. It looked like they’re hooked in with this [referring to the 9/11 attacks]. It looked like they knew what was going to happen.…It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park.” [Bergen Record, 9/12/2001] The FBI will later conclude at least two of the five are Mossad agents and that all were on a Mossad surveillance mission. The FBI interrogates them for weeks. [Forward, 3/15/2002] They are held on immigration violation charges, but will be released 71 days later (see November 20, 2001).

September 14, 2001: Head of Shadowy Company Flees US

Dominick Suter, owner of the company Urban Moving Systems, flees the country to Israel. The FBI later tells ABC News, “Urban Moving may have been providing cover for an Israeli intelligence operation.” Suter has been tied to the five Israeli agents caught filming the WTC attack. The FBI had questioned Suter around September 12, removing boxes of documents and a dozen computer hard drives. However, when the FBI returns a few days later, he is gone. [New Jersey Department of Law and Public Safety, 12/13/2001; Forward, 3/15/2002; ABC News, 6/21/2002]

March 5, 2002: Israeli Spies Reportedly Tracked 9/11 Hijackers

It is reported that many spies in the uncovered Israeli spy ring seemed to have been trailing the 9/11 hijackers. At the very least, they were in close proximity. For instance, five Israeli spies are intercepted in the tiny town of Hollywood, Florida, and four 9/11 hijackers are known to have spent time in Hollywood, Florida. [Le Monde (Paris), 3/5/2002; Reuters, 3/5/2002; Jane's Intelligence Digest, 3/15/2002] In one case, some Israeli spies lived at 4220 Sheridan Street, only a few hundred feet from where Mohamed Atta was living at 3389 Sheridan Street. Israeli spies appear to have been close to at least ten of the 19 9/11 hijackers. [Salon, 5/7/2002]

March 15, 2002: Jewish Magazine Says Israelis Spied in US on Radical Muslims

Forward, a US publication with a large Jewish audience, admits that there has been an Israeli spy ring in the US. [Forward, 3/15/2002] This is a reversal of their earlier stance. [Forward, 12/21/2001] But, “far from pointing to Israeli spying against US government and military facilities, as reported in Europe last week, the incidents in question appear to represent a case of Israelis in the United States spying on a common enemy, radical Islamic networks suspected of links to Middle East terrorism.” [Forward, 3/15/2002]

There is no PROOF that they were anything other than Israelis involved in art scams both in SEVERAL states and Canada and probably in several other countries given their passports. There is absolutely nothing but speculation that they ever "identified," any hijackers at all. No observations of such; no documentation of such, no anything despite bank records dating back at least a yeart and other documents. The DEA had been looking at these guys since WAY before 911 for drug related Ecstasy sales. This before any of the hijackers appeared on the scene. The attempts to put them "near," the hijackers fails when one looks at the distances involved among the various locations. Yes, Israel has criminals and not every one is an agent.

And so it goes with all these accusations. Follow ups are never reported. We are led to believe that despite Pollard, the US is going to release Israeli "agents." people who don't believe a word "law enforcement officials," say suddenly mine the ground for the words of these untrusty souls in the days when confusion reigns and then refuse to let go of it when it all turns out to be specious, repeating the claims sans the evidence.

Look Jeff, I have said that there is a chance Israel played some part and that Israeli spies were in the States as are spies of all allied and non-allied countries in other states. I'm just not going to buy the Kool aid being served without a lot more real proof that rises above he said she said.

And, whether you believe it or not, I am not trying to "blur," any line. However to save you any more grief I will stay out of this debate from here on in. My nuanced views are obviously not as nuanced as I thought and I insist on not letting myself be accused of "blurring," lines by engaging in the discourse. That was never my intention and should be evident from my earlier admissions that Israel may have had a part,just not the part so many want to ascribe.

These will be my last words on the subject and any other regarding Israel.

[GM Citizen]

These will be my last words on the subject and any other regarding Israel.

Well, I for one sincerely hope that it is not the last time you write about this subject. Many people in here disagree. Big deal.

The idea, I believe, is to have some sort of conversation where one person may get another perspective from someone holding a different position. And often time positions are entrenched. So what.

Sometimes we get chided for our blind spot. But I am certain that if we pitch our positions with some spirit, and a sincere effort to explain our positions, versus redundant, iterative, repetitive rehashing of (perceived) dubious cites and sources, then no intelligent person could find fault with that.

So...no need for you to steer clear of the subject, in my opinion.

[8bitagent]

I love sites like 9/11myths.

Kinda like doodad. They act as barometers for our focus.

simply look at the hard questions that they refuse to answer in an honest fashion

I agree. It makes me double check, and keep me on the toes with info.
Hence why a lot of my research focus is on the financing, protected charities, protected financiers, etc. Stuff that even 911myths, JREF, etc cant "debunk"

For people like us...its like Wheel of Fortune when looking at world events and situations. Weve seen enough letters in the phrase, that its no surprise when more letters reveal the secret words we already suspect.

Hence why some jump to calling things like the VT tech shooting or other incidents as "black ops"...because weve seen how far the elites and the parapolitic world go to shape our reality around us

Doodad, poor Doodad. Mike Willam's 911myths.com is strongly suspected of being a disinfo site. Don't you have a better cite? Something remotely legitimate?

Unbiased? Neutral? Non-Zionist?

Any site which disagrees with a given 9/11 theory will be "strongly suspected of being a disinfo site" by a beliver in that theory. What you're saying is "back this claim up but without citing a source which makes this claim" which is of course impossible.

Ive emailed with him. Mike isnt a disinfo shill, he's just stuck on the "incompetence" meme, no matter what. Like how Husfmind is stuck on the "Jews did it" meme

911myths position is that talk of Saudi/Pakistani/Dubai elite or royal financing in any way of 9/11 is "crazy talk"

[§ê¢rꆧ]

Thanks for this thread, 8bit. This is definitely the underplayed side of 911 investigation

Here's Kill the Messenger in a form you can download and covert to dvd for anybody interested... (700 mb)

http://www.eatlime.com/download.lc?sid= ... 30488882b4

[FourthBase]

Bump, cuz 8bit doesn't bump his great threads enough.