Congress Barters Lives for Cash?

[American Dream]

AlicetheKurious wrote:

I will say that I am not, nor have I ever been, a racist, let alone an extreme racist.

I'm growing extremely weary of all this, but you didn't have to look too far to see what the principles of the "Christian Party" that you cited are like- they are right here in this thread. Did you read them?

Neither did you have to do more than a Google search to see who else is carrying Joseph M. Canfield's very weak exegesis on how the Jews allegedly subverted the Christian Bible...

Collins, whose work on JFK you laud above all other, has far-right and racist tendencies, I would daresay. In addition, the general sort of ideas which you are defending here regarding a World Jewish/Zionist Conspiracy are not very different than the ones you would find at Stormfront, Vanguard, the Christian Party, and other such racist sites.

So all I can ask is, if you don't want to be a racist and don't consider yourself such, then why do you find yourself in such company? Please don't tell us that just proves of how intricate and diabolical the Zionist conspirators really are, as that by no means explains this all away...

Many of the ideas you are spreading are not at all helpful to the real victims of Israeli war crimes. Quite the opposite, and I would hope that you care enough about this to be able question your own discourse...

[AlicetheKurious]

Op Ed said:

Christianity has always considered itself the rightful heirs of spiritual and political power in Jerusalem. This goes back to the Late Roman Empire wherein Christians had direct political control of Palestine as a Roman Province.

The Crusades were, in some cases, yet another example of the by then mostly European forces of Christianity attempting to gain political control over their own "holy lands".

Absolutely. And "Christian zionism" would make some twisted sense if it was a movement of Christian colonists to Palestine, to establish the "New Israel". But the virtual deification of Jews and of a "Jewish state" by "Christian zionism" makes no Christian theological sense whatsoever. There is no historical precedent for anything like that.

What we do have is evidence that a petty con-man named C.I. Scofield with no background as a biblical scholar formulated a 'new' bible replete with commentary that promotes the Jewish zionist ideology that was rapidly gaining ground as a movement among some Jewish elites. That he was associated with a prominent zionist millionaire, and lived luxuriously, though he had no visible means of support. That his zionist bible was published by the Oxford University Press and heavily marketed and advertised in the U.S. so that it has become the bestselling version of the bible.

Scofield's bible is the basis for a cult that indoctrinates and mobilizes millions of Americans into fanatic worshipers of the zionist state and its leaders, and that is led by outrageously wealthy "shepherds" who maintain highly lucrative and oddly subservient ties with the Israeli leadership.

Is all this just coincidence? I think not.

[AlicetheKurious]

American Dream said:

Collins, whose work on JFK you laud above all other, has far-right and racist tendencies, I would daresay. In addition, the general sort of ideas which you are defending here regarding a World Jewish/Zionist Conspiracy are not very different than the ones you would find at Stormfront, Vanguard, the Christian Party, and other such racist sites.

Charming. For a while there, you tried to carry on a civilised discussion, addressing the arguments (though you're very weak on backing up your claims with facts, as usual). But true to form, you've fallen back on your old tricks when you have no intelligent response: ad hominem and your favorite, guilt by association.

How pathetic.

How boring.

How predictable.

[American Dream]

American Dream wrote:

So all I can ask is, if you don't want to be a racist and don't consider yourself such, then why do you find yourself in such company?...

I would hope that you care enough about this to be able question your own discourse...

Sigh...

[stefano]

Alice, thanks for that Bérubé piece, it's the kind of thing I was hoping you'd post as response. I read a lot by him at one point and then he kind of dropped off my radar; it's good stuff. I don't think the Liberty story is very conclusive; US elites other than the Zionists would be happy to sacrifice a few dozen sailors for access to a weapons-hungry market. But your other articles really do support your point of view. Interesting about the Bible as well.

[American Dream]

The better articles support the contention that Israel has power inside the United States. It would not be too much to characterize it as "significant power" or "inordinant power".

However, some of the other contentions- that Israel was the sole or primary cause behind the JFK assassination, that a litany of US politicians from Johnson through Kissinger and on to Clinton and others- were primarily or wholly controlled by Israel is a very different question. Much less the proposition that Israel now runs US foreign policy and/or runs the United States ("ZOG") - not well supported at all, in my opinion...

[lightningBugout]

Alice, I don't think AD was pulling an ad-hom attack at all. It looked much more like a sincere question.

[AlicetheKurious]

Alice, I don't think AD was pulling an ad-hom attack at all. It looked much more like a sincere question.

I know it did, and probably from somebody else I would have assumed it was.

[StarmanSkye]

I couldn't force myself to watch part 2 of that horrid vid -- the pimping of the Holocaust in THREE examples to justify support of Israel's 'defense' --It nauseated me. And quite scary, too -- especially reading the 9 to 1 bitter, hateful, angry comments conflating AIPAC, Israel & Jewry. There's a real shitstorm of vigorous antisemiticism being provoked as many people clearly believe Israel is pulling US strings, harming US interests. On some deep level, I don't doubt this backlash wave of popular condemnation of Israel is being psychologically exploited as a means of public control and public opinion-shaping, to further consolidate a unified Patriotic culture under attack by implacable forces requiring the most extreme diligence, duty and singleminded dedication. The same kind of manipulation seen to a lesser-extent in the US.

I find it all very, very troubling.

I expect one could thoroughly study the issue of how and why US policy-and-decisionmakers chose to attack, invade and occupy Iraq without finding conclusive evidence one way or the other, whether US policy was motivated primarily by oil and arms-industry interests, US geostrategic goals, or to aid Israel's longterm strategy for regional dominance. What's remarkable to me is the extent to which these interests converge - probably NOT just a coincidence. In other words, as much as Israel is using, its being used. A whole lot of cynical political realism aka power politics thoroughly complicates separating issues, actors and interests.

[American Dream]

Starman Skye wrote:

There's a real shitstorm of vigorous antisemiticism being provoked as many people clearly believe Israel is pulling US strings, harming US interests. On some deep level, I don't doubt this backlash wave of popular condemnation of Israel is being psychologically exploited as a means of public control and public opinion-shaping, to further consolidate a unified Patriotic culture under attack by implacable forces requiring the most extreme diligence, duty and singleminded dedication. The same kind of manipulation seen to a lesser-extent in the US.

I very much agree. Between the knee-jerk militarism and racism being stoked amongst the Israelis to the anti-Semitism being conflated with anti-Zionism beyond Israel, we are being manipulated. And just like 9/11 and the so-called "War on Terror", if we let ourselves be manipulated into racism and ethnocentrism, it is only the ruling elite that will win.

I firmly believe that there is a conspiracy afoot, both amongst the Jew-bashing sectors that have attached themselves to the Palestinian cause, and equally so the pro-Israel sectors that use spurious cries of a "new anti-Semitism" to hammer home unthinking consent for Israel's brutal policies.

We are being manipulated, and it is only we who can stop it...


What was that saying about the two hands of the magician?

[AlicetheKurious]

American Dream said:

I firmly believe that there is a conspiracy afoot, both amongst the Jew-bashing sectors that have attached themselves to the Palestinian cause, and equally so the pro-Israel sectors that use spurious cries of a "new anti-Semitism" to hammer home unthinking consent for Israel's brutal policies.

You forgot to mention the biggest conspiracy of all: the pervasive demonization of Arabs by Hollywood and the rest of the media, and the vicious media and physical attacks against the Muslim religion and people, under the banner of "security".

[hava1]

SUre, if there's a Taba visit, that's feasable for me, sure. PM or SMS...before its too hot down there.

Haven't heard about the oil spill, sounds bad for the fish and sea life. (and humans, eventually). There's a huge port there, which is a shame. Actually, on my ride back from Dahab to Taba border, i was accompanied by someone claiming to be a freight engineer. I say claiming, because i realized that almost every second person in Sinai is police, one way or the other. Anyway, this guy, who is a Copt man from Cairo kept in touch w me via MSN and SMS, so i learnt a bit more about "life in Egypt", actually sounds like nice life, for middle to upper class yuppies.

SO, i am saying all this, to come back to the Neweiba port. I learnt that the port there is pretty big, something that was totally new to me. I thought SInai is pristine underdeveloped sort of bedouin settlement...

Here its the same old crap, i kind of "pulled back" from everything. staying home, not even botheing with news anymore.
I am spending more time doing spiritual work, a bit of the Native American stuff that's been going around here.

And FYI, if anyone interested, JUne 21 , a big spiritual event in Jerusalem, "hug jerusalem" or so, with a variety of visiting shamans and healers ...and with the Obama visit, could be a positive event. I will post a link once i get on the net again, a week or so from now.

The Pope is right next to me this week now, visiting NAzareth and the region, bringing altogether good vibes. I know people here who are christians have reservations etc. with established religion etc., but, in the ME context, here in particular, the visit is spreading some hope in dire times and adds a regal embelishment to the otherwise grinding drudgery of living here.

...mubarack and israeli gov are on a honeymoon ever since.

I wouldn't exactly call it a honeymoon. Unless this is a love scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gLN3QoN ... re=related

come visit us here in israel

I don't think so. I've been campaigning for us to go to Taba, though -- close enough. Maybe we can work something out, if you're free.

BTW, Nuweiba's had a big oil spill from foreign tankers -- lots of dead fish, coral reefs destroyed, tarry beaches...horrible. But they're doing everything possible to clean it up.

[hava1]

http://www.whirlingrainbow.com/schedule.htm
http://www.loversofjerusalem.org/
http://www.spiritquestak.com/

[Allegro]

.
I’m putting the following research findings in this thread, because the word dispensation and its derivatives have been noted numerous times on page two. It would not be surprising if the phrase ‘Lives for Cash?’ in Alice’s OP was appropriate for child persecution and slavery mentioned in the transcript herein.

According to the November, 2007, video of three paneled experts and transcript presented by Council on Foreign Relations, Christian (premillennial) dispensationalism, evangelicalism, fundamentalism, and blends thereof, have been underpinning U.S.’s Middle East policy in what is called, and noted especially for this post, 10/40 Window or Window of Opportunity. In addition to missionaries’ opportunities in evangelizing people by the ‘born again’ narrative of eternal salvation through the death, blood, and resurrection of Jesus Christ are the equally emotive preachments of the Prosperity Gospel or Prosperity Theology, and a Calvinistic response to it.

The Prosperity Gospel isn’t mentioned in the provided transcript or its associated video; however, an easy supposition would be: where the missionaries are, thus go investors.

Also, the 10/40 Window is a geographical area, which contains the largest population of non-Christians. The area extends from 10 degrees to 40 degrees North of the equator, and stretches from North Africa across to China.

In the video, the panel of experts speaking, with regard to the stance of evangelical Christians toward U.S.-Middle East policy, includes Eliza Griswold whose research of the 10/40 Window was reason for adding her points of view to this thread.

Within the excerpts of the transcript I’ve put below, particular points of interest were bolded, and random paragraph spacings were added for an easier read.

Location of video taping:

Council on Foreign Relations, New York, NY
Event Date: 11.30.07
Video and transcript Evangelicals and the Middle East presented by FORA dot tv

<snip>

Eliza Griswold: Well, I think what’s important to remember, that 80 percent of the world’s 1.3 billion Muslims live outside what we term the Middle East. So when we’re looking at the encounter of evangelical Christianity and Islam, we’re looking primarily in the developing world in Africa and Asia.

Now, we’ve been hearing a lot about this 10/40 window, which I thought I might define -- just kind of backup and define for a minute so we’d understand some of the terms. And again, I think it’s essential to remember that there’s not one unified position or evangelical view of what this window is.

But the 10/40 window is also called the window of opportunity. It’s a geographic space that begins on the line of latitude 10 degrees north of the equator and it continues up until the line 40 degrees north of the equator. It’s a rectangle. Inside live about two-thirds of the world’s population. Eighty-five percent of the poorest of the poor, which means people who live on less than $500 a year. And I think it’s between -- it’s a soft figure -- but definitely over 90 percent have not been reached with the gospel -- have not heard someone preach to them directly about salvation through Jesus Christ. So that is what this 10/40 window. It was named in 1990 by an evangelist named Luis Bush -- Anyway, so -- and it became and still is -- I don’t want to overstate its importance as some sort of pre-millennial drive, but it is certainly a focus among evangelical Christians and missionaries for the last great push of salvation -- reaching the unreached within this window.

Now, what I have been looking at specifically is that line of latitude 10 degrees north of the equator, which is about 700 miles north of the equator. That splits Nigeria, Sudan, the Horn of Africa; it runs through Somalia and Ethiopia; it’s just above Indonesia and Asia and it splits the Philippines north-south. In Sudan, in particular -- which is a point of interest I’m looking forward to hearing Paul talk about -- the Brits used this 10th parallel to divide the north and south in 1905.

Now, right now looking at the evangelical presence in south Sudan, really the reason that we know about what’s going on in south Sudan is the presence of evangelical relief workers who have absolutely consistently supported the people of south Sudan, and not just because they’re perceived as Christians. And they are the first to say, this is beyond a religious understanding. Yet, there is a very -- there’s a point in the current peace agreement that was forged in 2005 between north and south that involved a very specific oil rich area between north and south and it is directly on this 10th parallel.

And it is looking like -- the place is called Abyei -- and it’s looking like peace may break down again. So there’s -- I was just speaking yesterday to a wonderful evangelical relief worker who was saying, watch Abyei, watch Abyei. And he is not in the State Department. And you know, he knows who’s going where and why, because he’s deeply committed to that work.

<snip>

Eliza Griswold: Well, I think one place to begin in the Middle East -- I was in Iraq when the war began and I was with a group of missionaries who used what they call “creative access” -- meaning that they were in Iraq teaching English and not openly working as missionaries. This group had been there -- and that’s all I’m going to say about them in terms of defining information -- they had been teaching English through the first Gulf War and providing aid work there.

And although there is no question their primary and singular drive in their head was to bring people to salvation through Christ, their success rate was extremely low by their own admission. And what served the daily good in a very important way was the teaching of English, the medical care. So why that may not be the primary drive, very frankly -- by many of the missionaries who work within this area -- that is their primary affect.

When it comes to persecution, looking at persecution in terms of basically -- I think the nexus of evangelical Christianity -- and Paul will address this in detail, I’m sure -- the nexus of evangelical issues and human rights is really this issue of persecution. It is extremely real. We may couch it as something else. You know, I mean, southern Sudan is a perfect example. I went several months ago to a conference in Franklin, Tennessee called Voice of the Martyrs, which serves the persecuted church. That is their mandate. They work mostly in PR, so it’s a pretty flashy presentation of information.

One pastor, an American, got up and talked about a southern Sudanese boy he had met -- and he showed pictures of this boy -- who had been sent to the north as a slave. Clearly, he was sold and working as a slave. And this boy had, in fact, been crucified and survived. But he was nailed to planks. Now, the pastor’s understanding of that was that he was crucified in terms of Jesus -- that this was a direct corollary to his being Christian. But identity isn’t fixed. It’s shifting all the time and this young boy had about 10 identities. So there’s a very important and in many ways providential to both the human rights community and the evangelical community that brings these two concerns together around issues of persecution.

<snip>

Eliza Griswold: Sure. Well, definitely the prophetic tradition is alive and well outside of Israel and Palestine. I mean, a couple of months ago I was in the “middle belt” of Nigeria which -- and, again, generalizations are dangerous here, but the mostly-Muslim north of Nigeria meets a predominantly Christian south in an area called Middle Belt, which unsurprisingly, is 10 degrees north of the equator. And again, it’s the southern edge of arid land. So basically, that’s as far as Islam got during the 19th century before tsetse flies caused camels and horses to die of sleeping sickness. So that’s where Islam stopped.

And now, I think really important to our discussion today, is to remember that this explosive growth of effervescent Christianity in Africa and Latin American and Asia -- but especially along that sub Saharan region -- is one of the things driving our foreign policy, because we’re seeing a new form of belief and really listening to people who have a form of faith that does not necessarily come from us. But anyway, back to social justice issues.

Well, in the middle belt, for example, there’s a specific field that lies between a small Islamic emirate and a Christian village. Maybe -- certainly over 1,000 people have died in the past several years fighting over this one field. Now, religion is one of a thousand factors in that life. You have land. You have desertification, the influence of climate change and grazing patterns -- all of these play into issues of social justice throughout the developing world. And then religion comes to color conflicts in an extremely convenient way for those who want to propagate conflict…

<snip to end>

Copyright 2010 FORA.tv.

The Q&A of the panel follows in the video.

[chump]

A year after it was written I'm just now getting into page 1 of this thread; which is not what I expected. The dialoque that Stefano had going with Alice, in which they both provided some fine references to follow up on, turned out to be most excellent. I have always maintained that oil was a drop in the bucket compared to the military and shady money to be made - blood money, destruction, reconstruction and who knows what else.

That "...religion comes to color conflicts in an extremely convenient way for those who want to propagate conflict…" seems obvious to me.

Thanks for bringing it up.