Incidental pawns in a very large chess game

[OP ED]

considering, IMO, it is a fictional cult, the CN people are basically groupies from what i can tell anyhow.

most all of the info discussed above is repeated on the wiki VRIL page, under the "conspiracy theories" heading about two thirds of the way down the page...

personally, i think its all nonsense. also i find apologetics for the Vedic caste system distasteful. it was fucked up enough in plain sanskrit.

[nathan28]

considering, IMO, it is a fictional cult

not just in your opinion, and as far as I can tell from reading actual historians and the lack of documentation besides a novel from 120 years ago, you're in good company

[OP ED]

well the nazi fetish babes with thee long hair are hot, so i thought i'd give them a little benefit of doubt...

[OP ED]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irminism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esotericis ... nd_Austria

[nathan28]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Goodrick-Clarke

http://books.google.com/books?id=9hMP5ZMu6bIC&dq=occult+roots+of+nazism&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=852OStfRGozClAfYo7yYDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahnenerbe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Rahn

http://www.uga.edu/wuog/podcasts/outthere40.mp3

Less hot Nazi chicks cut-and-pasted from those hairdressers' books and still frames from Haxan, but more facts / points of investigation at the links

[n0x23]

considering, IMO, it is a fictional cult,......personally, i think its all nonsense

Fair enough, I'm not arguing for, or against your opinion, but, I'm wondering...How is that relevant to this particular discussion?

also i find apologetics for the Vedic caste system distasteful. it was fucked up enough in plain sanskrit.

Is this directed at something I have said?

[n0x23]

nathan28, thank you for those links.

[OP ED]

considering, IMO, it is a fictional cult,......personally, i think its all nonsense

Fair enough, I'm not arguing for, or against your opinion, but, I'm wondering...How is that relevant to this particular discussion?

ah, well...

see, if the thesis is that we're all "pawns", i.e. including in "us" the powerful types, and that this is some sort of connected overarching "game" or agenda by evil space demons or something, and the primary evidence for this somewhat over ambitious theory is the seeming similarities between several historical cults, then demonstrating their non-connectedness, disunity in theory/aims and/or "fruits", or that they're entirely fictional, as may be the case with Vril, makes this thesis of an overarching master plan seem much less likely...

also i find apologetics for the Vedic caste system distasteful. it was fucked up enough in plain sanskrit.

Is this directed at something I have said?

not as such, but yes. rather indirectly. you may not have meant it as such, but i often encounter a certain "mystique" attached to the more eastern mythologies/religions which likes to blame later humans for corrupting teachings that by modern standards were actually pretty corrupt to begin with.

[n0x23]

see, if the thesis is that we're all "pawns", i.e. including in "us" the powerful types, and that this is some sort of connected overarching "game" or agenda by evil space demons or something, and the primary evidence for this somewhat over ambitious theory is the seeming similarities between several historical cults, then demonstrating their non-connectedness, disunity in theory/aims and/or "fruits", or that they're entirely fictional, as may be the case with Vril, makes this thesis of an overarching master plan seem much less likely...

Alright. What then are your exact thoughts regarding the thesis of mankind being a pawn in the overarching master plan of evil space demons or something?

not as such, but yes. rather indirectly. you may not have meant it as such, but i often encounter a certain "mystique" attached to the more eastern mythologies/religions which likes to blame later humans for corrupting teachings that by modern standards were actually pretty corrupt to begin with.

I can assure you that I am not an apologist for corruption, ignorance, fascism, or elitism in any way, shape or form.

Humans, just as dogs and wolves are by their biological imprints hierarchical creatures, there will always exist the pack mentality and the resulting dominant and submissive attributes, the means that the Alphas use to justify this behavior are most times arbitrary and irrelevant.

Do you feel that recognizing and admitting this basic Human characteristic makes one an apologist?

For the most part ALL religious and philosophical teachings can be, and for the most part are, misinterpreted, "corrupted" by those attempting to decipher them.
This is mainly due to the lack of experiential knowledge on the part of the interpreter. Secondly, the fault falls on the author, trying to teach/ describe a purely subjective experience in dualistic terminology through the limited means of myth, metaphor and allegory.

That is why the later Vedanta Gurus taught in silence, or threw the question back to the student when pressed for an answer, or in the case of Zen Roshis, just simply hit you with a stick.

This is not the fault of the teachings, the teacher, or the student, but of the dualistic mind-set and the inherent, limited capacity of our language to transpose Subjective experience accurately into objective comprehension.

[OP ED]

see, if the thesis is that we're all "pawns", i.e. including in "us" the powerful types, and that this is some sort of connected overarching "game" or agenda by evil space demons or something, and the primary evidence for this somewhat over ambitious theory is the seeming similarities between several historical cults, then demonstrating their non-connectedness, disunity in theory/aims and/or "fruits", or that they're entirely fictional, as may be the case with Vril, makes this thesis of an overarching master plan seem much less likely...

Alright. What then are your exact thoughts regarding the thesis of mankind being a pawn in the overarching master plan of evil space demons or something?

wishful thinking.

I can assure you that I am not an apologist for corruption, ignorance, fascism, or elitism in any way, shape or form.

Humans, just as dogs and wolves are by their biological imprints hierarchical creatures, there will always exist the pack mentality and the resulting dominant and submissive attributes, the means that the Alphas use to justify this behavior are most times arbitrary and irrelevant.

Do you feel that recognizing and admitting this basic Human characteristic makes one an apologist?

only if one does not recognize its universality, which, btw, i'm not accusing you of, merely making clear that sometimes language can be misleading and that yours could be interpreted this way.

For the most part ALL religious and philosophical teachings can be, and for the most part are, misinterpreted, "corrupted" by those attempting to decipher them.
This is mainly due to the lack of experiential knowledge on the part of the interpreter. Secondly, the fault falls on the author, trying to teach/ describe a purely subjective experience in dualistic terminology through the limited means of myth, metaphor and allegory.

That is why the later Vedanta Gurus taught in silence, or threw the question back to the student when pressed for an answer, or in the case of Zen Roshis, just simply hit you with a stick.

indeed. i was merely suggesting that the author be included in this taking of blame. which wasn't implied in your original context.

This is not the fault of the teachings, the teacher, or the student, but of the dualistic mind-set and the inherent, limited capacity of our language to transpose Subjective experience accurately into objective comprehension.

oh but sometimes it is the fault of the teachings, the teacher or the student. sometimes the teachings are flawed from the beginning and not only because of misinterpretation or the inability to properly convey esoteric meaning in binary linguistics.

the indian caste system, as i learned it, likely dates from neolithic times, i.e. 12000 years ago. starting at least with the shruti texts, vedic history is one of relative acceptance and increasing encouragement of the caste system of division by birth. there is some room for interpretation of these scriptures, of course, but the consensus has always been that they were tolerant of this slavery system at the very least, and as with western religious history, more tolerant as time passed until very modern days, although it is still the general state of affairs for the majority of the population. the religion was invented after the castes, that is, and used to justify them. indeed many of the ancient eastern belief systems directly imply this sort of hierarchy in their doctrines.

[nathan28]

the indian caste system, as i learned it, likely dates from neolithic times, i.e. 12000 years ago. starting at least with the shruti texts, vedic history is one of relative acceptance and increasing encouragement of the caste system of division by birth. there is some room for interpretation of these scriptures, of course, but the consensus has always been that they were tolerant of this slavery system at the very least, and as with western religious history, more tolerant as time passed until very modern days, although it is still the general state of affairs for the majority of the population. the religion was invented after the castes, that is, and used to justify them. indeed many of the ancient eastern belief systems directly imply this sort of hierarchy in their doctrines.

Further off-topic, but I might add that the United States had more racial equality only a few years after ending race-based slavery than it did fifty years after--that the clergy and Capitalists conspired to make this so--and, in some ways, even in this secular latter day.

http://www.picturehistory.com/product/id/10451

[n0x23]

OP ED, I was wondering if you would be able to give some examples of that to which you are referring to in the Vedas, that suggest, imply, or that can be misconstrued as advocating a hierarchical, social construct, as opposed to a Subjective, "spiritual" paradigm?

[OP ED]

OP ED, I was wondering if you would be able to give some examples of that to which you are referring to in the Vedas, that suggest, imply, or that can be misconstrued as advocating a hierarchical, social construct, as opposed to a Subjective, "spiritual" paradigm?

chapter and verse?

no, i really don't have time for that right now. maybe in a few days. it is embedded throughout the texts, just as the toleration of slavery and subjugation of women is in the abrahamic religions.

primer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_in_Hinduism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... ste_system

apologetics take forms [from the last link above] such as:

However, at the same time, the Gita says that one's varna is to be understood from one's personal qualities and one's karma (work), not one's birth.

which is apologetic because it fails to recognize that one's birth is supposedly determined by one's karma from previous lives. therefore those born as slave caste members literally deserve it, by divine sanction, etc.

The idea that the soul (of any living being - including animals, humans and plants) reincarnates is intricately linked to karma, another concept first introduced in the Upanishads. Karma (literally: action) is the sum of one's actions, and the force that determines one's next reincarnation. The cycle of death and rebirth, governed by karma, is referred to as samsara but is often named atma or atman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation_and_Hinduism

note that the doctrines of karma and reincarnation originated outside the caste system, but were quickly adopted by the priesthood and became, in all effect, dogma thereafter.

[n0x23]

chapter and verse?

no, i really don't have time for that right now. maybe in a few days. it is embedded throughout the texts, just as the toleration of slavery and subjugation of women is in the abrahamic religions.

Okay, no problem, I understand.
It's just I was under the impression that you seem to have a strong conviction regarding the matter and would have some concrete examples at the ready.

But thank you for the links, I'll check them out.

Also, real quick....

Alright. What then are your exact thoughts regarding the thesis of mankind being a pawn in the overarching master plan of evil space demons or something?


wishful thinking.

You didn't answer, fantasy, delusion, irrationality, insanity etc., but wishful.

Why wishful?
Why do you suggest that those who hold these beliefs "wish" that they were true?

[OP ED]

chapter and verse?

no, i really don't have time for that right now. maybe in a few days. it is embedded throughout the texts, just as the toleration of slavery and subjugation of women is in the abrahamic religions.

Okay, no problem, I understand.
It's just I was under the impression that you seem to have a strong conviction regarding the matter and would have some concrete examples at the ready.

But thank you for the links, I'll check them out.

oh i may yet get back to it. understand i am not an opponent of religion in itself, merely a proponent of understanding its history. i just have to leave in a bit tonite and i have stuff to do before then.

also, there are a few direct quotes in those links, as horribly mainstream as they are, being wiki and all.

i actually have lecture notes on it somewhere and if i find them, i could innundate you with chapter/verses/etc, but i don't keep those sorts of things lying immediately about once i've used them to pass a test, y'know...

Also, real quick....

Alright. What then are your exact thoughts regarding the thesis of mankind being a pawn in the overarching master plan of evil space demons or something?


wishful thinking.

You didn't answer, fantasy, delusion, irrationality, insanity etc., but wishful.

Why wishful?
Why do you suggest that those who hold these beliefs "wish" that they were true?

well i suppose in some cases it could be one of those other things, probably is actually, but i'd say wishful for the religious majority.

my opinion as to why?

for the same reasons we always invent devils, because it is more comforting on some level to believe that we are not the primary cause of human suffering. which we are.

(Love is the Law)
---daniel

p.s. nice to meet you, btw. it has been pleasant conversing with you, and i hope to do so again at length at some future point.