MC and delusions (loads of TRIGGERS)

[lightningBugout]

Now that seems perfectly appropriate -- taking a thread about MC and using it as a platform for philosophical meandering on the nature of "mind." Nice. Carry on.

DID is in the most recent DSM. And its not going anywhere.

[elfismiles]

WARNING: Shameless Self-Promotion follows...

TELEVISION AND THE HIVE MIND
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The author of the above article, artist of the above picture, Mack White, will be my co-host once again tonight LIVE from 7-9pm CST via www.AfreeRadio.com



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Last week Mack and I did a special Dia de los Muertos music edition of PsiOp-Radio ... Mack aired the beginnings of a new audio version of his Hive Mind article.

You can listen to the archive hear:
http://www.psiopradio.com/media/2009/POR091101a.mp3

My apologies for this commercial interruption.

[elfismiles]

And thank you LBO for posting the OP.

I'm hopeful that one or more of the local non-profs I serve can develop some potential new guidelines / fact-sheets for mental health professionals (and anomalous experience investigators) that better take into account the variety of MK related claimants and survivors.

[exojuridik]

This discussion may suffer from the inability of language to adequately capture the multidimensional nature of thought and sentience. This forum is better than the mental health community because at least here we like the Inuit have many words to identify “snow.” Even still any thought or mental processes seem to be operations embedded within higher order functions which themselves are subsumed into the differential calculus of the cosmos; any attempt to solve for one equation ends up unraveling the whole big shebang of existence. Yet it is still important to at least try to work from some kind of model approximated from our philosophical thumbnail sketches and fuzzy perceptions trying to control for the warp inherent to the attempt of “I” trying to account for itself.

Now, I make no claims to speak for other victims of mind-control or abduction or particularized delusions, however, were it not for my own experiences I would have never discovered this site and would have filed the entire subject under the category of “crazy cranks and other nuttiness.” I would have also deferred to the enlightened opinions of Ph.D. psychologists and psychiatrists in all matters of the mind. My skeptical and scientific mind would distain any theory not vetting through peer-reviewed journals and I would be smugly enjoying my healthy ego and professional educated self-esteem. IOW – I would be an unwitting victim of malignant control like the vast majority of the human race.

What I went through was very similar to what has been described by the victims of mind control gangs and alien abduction. Indeed, at different times these narratives of rightwing CIA-funded mind terrorists and alien control-masters crisscrossed one another in my memories and thoughts. The scene in dark City where Kiefer injects those memories into John Murdoch gave me a cold chill of recognition. It were though my identity was malleable and the altered memories a means to control my sense of self. It was also as though I were living through a Cronenberg nightmare - Scanners and eXistenZ simultaneously; my mind was being zapped and reality had become an all-encompassing game. Yet during all of this I was also aware that while my thinking and perceptions were clinically “psychotic,” I could also reason and remained able to analytically approach the maelstrom threatening to destroy my mind. Indeed, the only thing between me and psychiatric commitment was my ability to verbalize and make sense of my private hell within a creative or artistic context. However, whatever was going on within my mind was in fact alien and was far too elaborately choreographed to be anything my sub-conscious could ever devise.

To this day there is no doubt that what I was going through was external in origin. In my efforts to rebuild the psychic defenses and battlements necessary to exist in the “outside” world, I was forced to acknowledge vectors of thought and being that officially don’t exist to the Western mind. The word-games of the verbal mind gave way to a Tetris-like positioning of individual components of consciousness that elide any attempt of conventional description. There were angels and allies involved in this rebuilding effort. It was a though there was a splintering of the prison of conventional reality and my mind was subject to ministrations of those beings that exist beyond the veil. Or rather those beings exist within this realm but the magnetic field of our waking-world- dream-logic protects us from those dimensions that would fry our primitive primate minds.

In retrospect, my experiences make sense when viewed through the prisms of reality found in Vedic or Gnostic texts. The most vital revelation has been as mistrust of our so-called ordered world of appearances. What is sanity if the sane are those that dance to the cruel annihilating tunes of modern existence? More germane to this discussion is why are there a large number of individuals who experience alien abduction or mental torture in similar ways? I know in my case, previous to the attacks, I had never spent more than a moment before dismissing the cases of others. I had seen the film eXistenz but not Dark City and in any event in no way considered the “paranormal” to be anything but the product of credulous thinking or deranged imaginations. Even the idea of “tinfoil hats” wasn’t on my radar until it was my turn on the ferris-wheel. IOW- in my case it wasn’t copy-cat or overactive imagination.

So if we can rule out copy-cat effects or simple neurotic delusions, what can account for the structural and thematic similarities in these cases. And why does the mental health community dismiss each of these cases as the product of individual psychosis when there may narrative connections between similar cases? How many individuals have had their stories ignored by counselors anxious to get the patient medicated? There could be something systemic occurring here but the data isn’t even being collected. In my own case, the synchromystical associations and escheresque ideational labyrinths tell me that it wahat ever it was, it is something more than anything fitting into standard scientific explanation or diagnostic category.

Some tentative explanations:
1. Targeted Mind-control using black-budget psychotronic tech. Why not, we have had the technology for decades. In my own case, there do seem to be some shadowy-intelligence connections to my father – btw he was practically outed as a CIA agent by Kinky Friedman in one of his books. Although Mr. Friedman’s account has some inaccuracies that suggests he dressed his story up for dramatic effect.

2. Alien or non-human sentience attempts at communication, control or study. Especially in the alien abduction cases, this theme is prevalent. In my own experience, aliens were always about a half dozen thoughts away. Again, before this I had no interest in the damn critters, now, I entertain “Invasion of Body-snatchers” scenarios everytime I managed to watch CNN/Fox/MSNBC – especially Fox.

3. Haarp/Scalaar side f/x – perhaps there has been large-scale experimentation going on that affects certain individuals differently.” hi-psi” types might be more sensitive to this mode of mind-fuckery. Personally, I am certainly more conscious of the electro-magnetic medium of the mind.

4. Changes in the medium of our shared reality. I could see CERN or Jack Parsons or some black NSA budget project changing the very nature of time and space and some people happen to notice this more than others.

5. I am the cheese -it is currently 2040 and my perceived reality is an elaborate virtual reality milieu designed to suss out my involvement in the anti-AI movements of the ‘20’s. In actuality I am drugged in some hospital vat while my cyborg masters slowly peel away the layers of my mind. I include this possibility to let you all know that I am own to your evil schemes. But I remain the Cheese-Whiz muthafuckas

Sorry for going on so, but this seem to be an area that has been ignored and/or dismissed by anyone who has not gone through such an experience. And again I only speak for myself, but the indisputable fact remains that shit is indeed afoot and we need to be both open-minded and critical to the numerous reported stories and experiences of mind-control/abduction – as they might offer a key to understanding the fucked up games being played on all of us.

[lightningBugout]

Nice post Exo.

But its worth pointing out - MC does not equal WOO.

My own experiences are remembered in the cold, hard light of day. Nothing spooky or weird. Just alot of pain.

[barracuda]

Nice post Exo.

But its worth pointing out - MC does not equal WOO.

I don't get that. Exo is not you. It sounds as if you are implying that his understanding of his experience and his attempts to deconstruct them are invalid in some way that is external to his reference frame. Isn't that the objective of the OP article?

[23]

But the notion of cause-effect is still a thought. A perception.

Yes, a thought.
So, from your explanation, if cause and effect are a thought, how can they be perceived, as you claim?

Time and space issue forth from the primary notion/idea of a separate self. A self that has duration (time) and is different (space) from other selves.

When you and I are apperceived as One, with no separation or difference between us, then time and space no longer exist.

Time and space exist coincidingly with the notion of a separate self.

Cause-effect supports the notion, too, of time. Something that Einstein posited isn't real either.

But how can an intrinsically empty notion support another intrinsically empty notion?

Illusion can only beget illusion. This is singularly important, so I'll say it again. Illusion can only beget illusion.

That is why the illusion of a separate and distinct self... can only perceive other illusions. It's eye is an illusionary one.

As long as you apperceive yourself to be a separate and distinct self, you will only be able to apperceive other illusions.

Any perception of a perception only strengthens the perceived reality of perceptions.

Just as the eye can not see itself, nor can the ear hear itself...how can a perception perceive itself?

As an old man once told me, awareness is attention placing its attention on attention.

Not perception looking at other perceptions (irrespective of which direction).

But awareness being aware of awareness.

And as long as there is a perceiver who perceives himself to be real, his perceptions will appear to be real as well.

Again, how can a perceiver perceive it's own perception?

That is all a perceiver is capable of perceiving: perceptions. Or an illusion (the self) looking at or for other illusions. Including one's self.

[n0x23]

Now that seems perfectly appropriate -- taking a thread about MC and using it as a platform for philosophical meandering on the nature of "mind." Nice. Carry on.

The topic of the thread is operating under the assumption that there IS a mind that can be controlled and manipulated by others, I asked..."How can one control something that does not inherently exist?"

How is that philosophical meandering?
Why is that question not relevant to the discussion?

[lightningBugout]

Nice post Exo.

But its worth pointing out - MC does not equal WOO.

I don't get that. Exo is not you. It sounds as if you are implying that his understanding of his experience and his attempts to deconstruct them are invalid in some way that is external to his reference frame. Isn't that the objective of the OP article?

No idea how you got that. Definitely not what I meant, at all.

[Sounder]

Apologies for the OP drift; the original impulse of this thread deserves better consideration. (Sorry lbo, I wrote this before the latest batch of posts and I do not endorce thread drift even if i do contribute to it.)

If doing ‘mind control’ involves inculcating pretences and beliefs such that the corresponding thoughts are products of external social coercion, they will tend to swamp out the creative impulse of the essential self. One good coping mechanism is to become Buddhist, then you can say there is no essential self and all is coercion until one transcends this poor pitiful material realm.

23 wrote…

But the notion of cause-effect is still a thought. A perception.

Cause-effect supports the notion, too, of time. Something that Einstein posited isn't real either.

Did Einstein also advocate for the non-reality of cause and effect?

Any perception of a perception only strengthens the perceived reality of perceptions.

And as long as there is a perceiver who perceives himself to be real, his perceptions will appear to be real as well.

That is word salad.
While a perception does not see the real, it is still a perception.

Even if no perception is a true representation of reality, still ones ignorance is no cause to deny the existence of the real itself. The moon or the rose does not care what you call it.

Perception is a flood of sense data whose coherency or match to reality is dependent on the limitations of our conceptual structures. This is also to say that, even if a perception does not perceive reality that doesn’t mean that the perception is useless. This points to a basic difference I have with the Buddhist take on reality. Buddhists seem to consider that the only knowing that is worth anything lies beyond the constraints of form. Whereas it makes more sense to me to consider that the only knowing that is worth anything is the knowing that can be expressed through form. Because understanding is mediated through form, it is changing or changed conceptual structures that are capable of revealing a more true relationship between the form and reality. Personal Identity need not be built on a static model of beliefs, it can be dynamic and it's our fixed beliefs that cause human habit to be seen as human nature.

She said that she had a somewhat dissociative personality herself, and was afraid to admit the extent of the possibilities.

23 wrote...

Personally, I don't view disassociating from your identities (we have more than one) as a dis-order or dis-ease.

If anything, it's the Rx for what currently ails us.

The hazard is when folk cover up their essential nature so as to be compatible with immediate circumstances. These folk are not dissociating from their personal identity so much as creating new identities as additional coping devices.

23 and n0x23, another thread may be better for these speculations.

Exojuridic wrote...

It was a though there was a splintering of the prison of conventional reality and my mind was subject to ministrations of those beings that exist beyond the veil. Or rather those beings exist within this realm but the magnetic field of our waking-world- dream-logic protects us from those dimensions that would fry our primitive primate minds.

Is this maybe the unconscious field of being, looking for ways to reveal more of it's contents to you?

[exojuridik]

Nice post Exo.

But its worth pointing out - MC does not equal WOO.

My own experiences are remembered in the cold, hard light of day. Nothing spooky or weird. Just alot of pain.

I'm not trying to equate your actual physical abuse with that of my own particular psychic, provenance unknown, experiences. As for clarification, much of the woo in my account stems from the dissociative states evoked by the pain/paranoia that came from being zapped. I'm saying there is something going on here and its not being openly examined. My main point is that individuals need to be free to discuss their experiences without fear or ridicule or derision. In particular, the mental health community has done much damage by their pharmaceutically convenient labeling and 10 questionaire diagnoses. What is more frightening is that I know so many individuals striken by neurological degenerative disorders and other wasting afflications and in every case the doctors are clueless as to the nature or origin of their conditions.

We will never get any closer to figuring out the sources of our mental/physical problems if we aren't willing to engage in an open and critical inquiry with one another. Until we are honest in confronting this, stories like mine will remain in the realm of demons and woo-woo.

Quote:
It was a though there was a splintering of the prison of conventional reality and my mind was subject to ministrations of those beings that exist beyond the veil. Or rather those beings exist within this realm but the magnetic field of our waking-world- dream-logic protects us from those dimensions that would fry our primitive primate minds.

Is this maybe the unconscious field of being, looking for ways to reveal more of it's contents to you?

Maybe but I consider the idea of "unconscious" as suspect as anything else. I mean if you allow for this mind-within-mind then you open any number of pandorean boxes.

appreciate the sentiment 'cuda - we need to be open to each others reality (de)construction attempts and for being called on spinning bullshit when necessary. That's something I am always ready for . . .

[compared2what?]

Now that seems perfectly appropriate -- taking a thread about MC and using it as a platform for philosophical meandering on the nature of "mind." Nice. Carry on.

The topic of the thread is operating under the assumption that there IS a mind that can be controlled and manipulated by others, I asked..."How can one control something that does not inherently exist?"

How is that philosophical meandering?
Why is that question not relevant to the discussion?

If you [think or whatever] that it is, suit yourself. I'm familiar with the concepts to which you're referring and am not interested in pursuing them further on this thread. I thought and still do think that your post was inconsiderate, and wanted to ask you to focus on what you were saying in context in hopes that it would prompt that notion to suggest itself to you. However, it's your non-chosen consciousness, not mine. So I'll leave you to it. Anything I might have had to say had already been said better by lbo himself anyway:

Yep, TV is a form of "mind control." But for most survivors, "mind control" is our best google bet at finding others who experienced things like we did.

FWIW I want to name my main perp here almost everyday (actually I already have, many times). Because, if I did, I know that all you savvy researchers would truly and deeply "get it." He's pretty blatant and his name would link you to all sorts of nefarious shit. But I can't. And unless I get to the point of a lawsuit, I will never be able to.

Hence I live in a hellish limbo. And I prolly will for a long fucking time. So think twice about what you say.

Thanks for your tolerance of my questions.

[compared2what?]

lbo, I wrote a long post last night seconding yours -- the one just quoted by me above -- and making various points in support of it that got swallowed by the internet and which I apparently don't have it in me to recreate now. For which I apologize to you. Back when my questions to n0x23 were followed by my answers to myself, I was a little more satisfied that my net contribution to your thread wouldn't end up as a negative sum than I am right at the moment. So I'm sorry.

I was having a talk with a friend just yesterday about this. The topic of DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder aka Multiple Personality Disorder) came up, and I was quite surprised to hear my friend (who is currently getting her masters is psychology) say that she didn't believe in DID. I had just read a clinical paper on DID which suggested that in fact many psychologists didn't believe in DID, but the reason behind the disbelief for many of them was in fact an inability to wrap their minds around something as disturbing as that (kinda like 9/11 for many people). When I brought this up, my friend admitted that this was actually the case for herself. She said that she had a somewhat dissociative personality herself, and was afraid to admit the extent of the possibilities.

It's sort of traditional for there to be some cranks who like to make names for themselves by bickering themselves into a state of high dudgeon that with that diagnosis. But as far as I'm aware, they really are nothing but indignant cranks who apparently don't see any reason why they should let their one-hundred-per-cent lack of any original data or firsthand clinical experience wrt DID stop them from becoming authorities on the subject by negging on the work of clinicians who have actually done some. I've certainly never read a convincing word by any of them, at least. The non-cranky, non-specialist consensus has always been that there's absolutely no question either that it's a valid diagnosis or that it's associated with multiple experiences of very extreme abuse over a sustained period of time starting in childhood. And that's not really a controversial professional point-of-view, for a clinician who's got no axe to grind. That's what a plain reading of the most reliable data available suggests. And apart from the dissatisfaction of cranks, there's no particular reason for a consensus-minded clinician of average professional responsibility to question it. That I know of, anyway.

Personally, I don't view disassociating from your identities (we have more than one) as a dis-order or dis-ease.

If anything, it's the Rx for what currently ails us.

23, you're not talking about DID if you think and/or are one with that. You must have something else in mind/consciousness.

[lightningBugout]

thanks sweetheart c2w (I mean that in the most non-gendered way available to me, btw).

I feel that it is worth pointing this out -- not all MC survivors have a DID diagnosis. Nor do we all see whackjob Christian therapists. My own shrink is on the faculty at one of the top ten universities in this country. And, from what I can tell when I shell out a fuck lot of money to see him, is entirely secular.

[compared2what?]

thanks sweetheart c2w (I mean that in the most non-gendered way available to me, btw).

I feel that it is worth pointing this out -- not all MC survivors have a DID diagnosis. Nor do we all see whackjob Christian therapists. My own shrink is on the faculty at one of the top ten universities in this country. And, from what I can tell when I shell out a fuck lot of money to see him, is entirely secular.

All excellent points. Not every person with DID is necessarily an MC survivor, either, one could also add. Without adding much worth adding, since I don't know anything beyond that -- ie, what the stats are, if any. Which I don't believe there are on that particular point.

Not everyone with a dissociative disorder has DID, for that matter. Although I think dissociative disorders/features/symptoms at the less pronounced end of the spectrum are underlooked as well, for some reason. And also for no very good reason, really. But that's just my lay, casual and anecdotal opinion, and not based on anything apart from the thinking that I like to do with my mind. FWIW.

I thought the OP had much food for thought and discussion, btw. I regret not having gone that route. Maybe tomorrow.