Although there are obvious assumptions, have we as yet as a culture decided on which hip gyration or which leg or arm movement is strictly symbolic of some sort of sexual communication? Apparently the issue for some with the young girls' dance is that their movements are borrowed from a context in which they are assumed to communicate sexual desire. For those who are not bothered, perhaps the meaning of individual movements reapplied in a different context does not obtain, and so there is no ambiguity.
Where are we here with the symbolism of individual movements, and maybe clothing, is perhaps the question. Given the convolutions that the function of creative expression has undergone over the last 100 years, perhaps we're in place where we simply cannot answer these questions in any concrete form. What say you, creative folk on this very forum, who in your own works often employ very personal, and singular systems of symbolism, usually without legend to unaware audiences? What say you to the interpretations given to this dance?
OK, attempting to answer the question myself, I do see the dance as borrowing from existing adult and sexualized dance forms and there in lies the problem. OK, yeah, whatever.
Im really interested in RIers trying this thought experiment...
The thing which I found most disturbing about that was the outfits and following back the thought process and even the physical construction of them.
If you replay the mental movie of them dancing, try replacing their outfits with something neutral, like tee shirts and jeans, you might find a totally different experience (or maybe not). For me it became much more neutral, more like cheerleading... for me there is something truly evil about fetishizing children in this way; it feels like step one of a process which will end with them treating their virginity as a disease to be got rid of as soon as possible, by whatever means necessary. I witnessed this with a former partners niece who went from a sweet young girl into looking like a (and acting similar to) a crack whore (sans drugs) in her early teens. She dropped that after a couple of years, which I was very glad about, but from what I see of the culture she is in, decisions are driven purely by peer-pressure 'norm de jour'. - those cultural norms are created and encouraged by adults, they are not 'emergent' from childhood.
Personally, I think it would be great to do some frikkin hardball 'desertfae-style' investigation into how those kids ended up wearing those outfits, cos personally, I think the people in that chain should be in pound-in-the-ass Federal prison sharing a cell with a 500lb hairy Aryan Nations member called Leroy.
Thanks Cuda. You found the exact clips from RIZE that I was wanting folks to compare and contrast.
I too thought the moment in the film when they talk about parents being upset about he little girls doing what to adults seems like highly sexualized gyrations was rather interesting.
As with so many of the issues we talk about around here I see both sides of this and don't want to have a knee-jerk reaction.
I guess what it comes down to is, after post-industrialization supposedly opened up the opportunity for kids to have more time to be kids, through advertising's mission-creep sexualizing everything we are reverting back to times when children were made to start having babies as soon as biologically possible. The end result is that kids start immitating the media-driven sexuality of adult marketers who are constantly lowering the bar towards the cradle.
The above is probably one of the poorest attempts I've made at verbalizing this sort of thing.
Especially considering that the culprit in this case is probably some little old lady seamstresses in the backroom down at Larry's Theatrical Supply. I just don't see those costumes as being remarkably salacious. But then I have generally zero sexual response to seven-year olds, as it should be. Now, if I saw the costumes on a thirty-five year old in the proper setting, well, then, Bob might just turn out to be your father's brother.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
I think the people in that chain should be in pound-in-the-ass Federal prison sharing a cell with a 500lb hairy Aryan Nations member called Leroy.
Searcher08, do you really find prison rape jokes/revenge fantasies funny or appropriate?
Yes, I certainly do... but then I admire Family Guy enormously and question the very idea of 'appropriate' and humour.
Given that my first choice of them being fed head first into a woodchipper a la Fargo is probably unavailable, then certainly, with appropriate defined as:
... but then I admire Family Guy enormously and question the very idea of 'appropriate' and humour.
Mmmm. I had no idea you were writing from such a degree of sophistication. Go back to watching TV and laughing at poor people getting raped. They deserve it, right?
barracuda wrote:Especially considering that the culprit in this case is probably some little old lady seamstresses in the backroom down at Larry's Theatrical Supply. I just don't see those costumes as being remarkably salacious. But then I have generally zero sexual response to seven-year olds, as it should be. Now, if I saw the costumes on a thirty-five year old in the proper setting, well, then, Bob might just turn out to be your father's brother.
I'm afraid I find the implications in this offensive, Barracuda, as I do see what the adults are making these children do as offensive to the children, a shitty comment on our society even if the children are being subjected to this via Miley Cyrus and think they need to imitate her. And I do not look at children sexually. Perhaps you would approve of your daughter getting on stage and pole dancing? That's only imitating what she sees from adults! Or perhaps acting out sexually because she sees the neighbors doing so? Its the same exact thought process.
No, children imitating adult behaviour is not appropriate.
No, children being coerced into imitating adult behaviour by adults is abusive, even if the child is unaware. It's comparative to someone standing behind a mirror oogling a child changing their clothing in a dressing room - the child is unware the adult set up the entire situation just to do so, but none the less the situation is inappropriate and the child is being taken advantage of.
Hell, sexualizing a teenager is bad enough, for salacious adult profit. No one is taking into consideration that these kids are not emotionally capable of handling more than the back seat grope with boys their age.
As someone who has been abused in these manners, I take great offense at anyone who makes weak-assed apologies for the adults abusing these children, and the situations these children are in.
... but then I admire Family Guy enormously and question the very idea of 'appropriate' and humour.
Mmmm. I had no idea you were writing from such a degree of sophistication. Go back to watching TV and laughing at poor people getting raped. They deserve it, right?
Hmm. I had no idea you were not
From that I have established you are a) Think Family Guy is not sophisticated (Do you hate Zappa as well?) b) Have hallucinations about me watching TV (1 hour in the last six months) c) Think I laugh at people getting raped (helped women get past it with NLP)
What would your life be like if you were a tad more... offensive?
Nordic wrote:What if it were a bunch of boys acting out a beheading of a captive? All dressed in military fatigues? With the adults cheering and screaming?
That would be the male equivalent of what we're seeing here.
And sure, because the kids didn't really know what they were really doing, it would be just aOK.
82_28 wrote:I read something a couple years ago about the "safety first" mentality of society these days. Back in like 1981, the guy said, if he'd gotten on his bike and went down the street to play with his neighborhood friends with a helmet on, the other kids would have kicked his ass. It was a good essay but I have no idea where to find it now. It echoes my feeling on skateboarding these days too. You can't go to a strip mall and skate the curbs, rails and stairs anymore. Can't go to office parking garages late at night and hit the loading docks anymore. All of it is confined to skate parks, all the skateable surfaces are now "defaced" and booby trapped to make skating anywhere impossible. Skating to me represented freedom. If I were the age I was in 1989 today, I would have never gotten into skateboarding at all.
I want to go really quickly off-topic here to say that there certainly does still exist a counterculture of unsterilized skateboarding in america today, at least in my experience / knowledge / observation. My younger brother (22) currently has made a name for himself within the skateboarding world and makes some modest amount of money doing what he loves. And he and his (significantly numbered) crew certainly skate outside of mainstream, predetermined spaces. I don't know if that has anything to do with him living in a large, formerly industrial northern city that contains huge swaths of abandoned urban/industrial landscapes, or if the type of lifestyle that they have is more common. Living in a city and being an adult myself, I have plenty of friends who still skate, some of whom are older than me, and they are pretty reckless individuals.
That being said, I hear what you are saying. I'd have to agree that I imagine the majority of this great nation to frown upon / not tolerate that type of countercultural behavior in this day and age. But for now, in cities on the eastern seaboard and in the pacific northwest, there are still plenty of young kids skating without pads and helmets and outside of demarcated areas. My brother spent half of 2008 living in Barcelona, skating with his friends, living 8 to a cramped, 1BR, $50/month apartment, and ran into no problems with the Spanish law or anything like that.
As part of our larger argument about the "safety first" mentality. If I wracked my brain, I'm sure I could think of something else besides skateboarding that still exists to subvert the status quo and desterilize the life of a teenager in a somewhat non-self-destructive way. For the time being, though, everything that I think of revolves around the taking of photos of said activity and ensuring that they make their way onto facebook.
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
Maddy wrote:I'm afraid I find the implications in this offensive, Barracuda, as I do see what the adults are making these children do as offensive to the children, a shitty comment on our society even if the children are being subjected to this via Miley Cyrus and think they need to imitate her. And I do not look at children sexually.
First of all, these kids aren't imitating Miley Cyrus. They are dancing to choreography lifted rather directly from Beyonce's "Single Ladies" video, the number one single on every chart on the planet n 2008, and certified as triple-platinum on at least two continents and rather universally hailed as an anthem of female empowerment. From the Toronto Star:
There are gospel and acoustic versions. Toddlers have tackled it. [So have] recreation centre dance classes, sorority sisters in their dorm rooms, suburban teenagers in their basements and high school cheerleaders... There are all-male tributes, an impromptu number in an airport lounge and even some "new 'n' improved" videos of dance teams taking a second try. As with every Internet trend, there are of course the requisite Facebook groups devoted to it ... a couple of years ago, Soulja Boy initiated a short-lived dance craze ... but it remained mainly a male hip-hop dance, whereas the 'Single Ladies' dance has crossed over to all age groups and genders.
In other words, this is one of the most rampantly popular song and dance moments of the last ten years.
Perhaps you would approve of your daughter getting on stage and pole dancing? That's only imitating what she sees from adults! Or perhaps acting out sexually because she sees the neighbors doing so? Its the same exact thought process.
I assume you are referring to Maypole dancing.
wiki wrote:...the origin of the maypole dance began in ancient Babylon during sex worship and fertility rites. A carved upright representation of the human penis was danced around by young females and woven with ribbons to ensure offspring.
How very filthy.
As someone who has been abused in these manners, I take great offense at anyone who makes weak-assed apologies for the adults abusing these children, and the situations these children are in.
Look, I'm not going to say I don't understand your concerns - I do. I simply don't share them in this particular instance. Dance is about the sensual movement of the body; there's no escaping that. I don't really think the dance in the OP is intrinsically any more or less sexualised than this is:
Nordic wrote:What if it were a bunch of boys acting out a beheading of a captive? All dressed in military fatigues? With the adults cheering and screaming?
That would be the male equivalent of what we're seeing here.
And sure, because the kids didn't really know what they were really doing, it would be just aOK.
Not.
Sounds precisely like you are describing some kids playing cowboys and indians, which, though I disapprove of it on a certain level because of the relationship to colonialism and racism, is doubtless not something that would cause me to take any great offense.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
