Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

[Joe Hillshoist]

I didn't take hava as anti-semitic... Is hava Jewish? It sounds like he lives in Israel.

Hava lives in israel, and is a survivor of extreme abuse. Some of the people she has consistantly referred to here are involved with the psyche industry in Israel. Perhaps this case isn't one that should upsaet her, but I can understand why it would.

BTW


My teeth are fucked. One of the reasons is hardcore drug abuse half a lifetime ago (speed and pills mostly). Its not the only reason but it contributed.

[undead]

it's impossible- laughable, really- to imagine a nefarious use for MDMA.

Uh, I don't know about that. The main thing I would think of is that people can use it to take advantage of someone sexually. This happens all the time in the dark underworld of legally prohibited drugs, with lot's of different kinds of drugs. That's one of the reasons MDMA is such a hot topic - just about anyone can enjoy it, including people who are not into the positive subculture associated with it. Also, I would imagine that it would be very useful in an interrogation. Probably a lot more useful than LSD.

Hava lives in israel, and is a survivor of extreme abuse. Some of the people she has consistantly referred to here are involved with the psyche industry in Israel. Perhaps this case isn't one that should upsaet her, but I can understand why it would.

For the record, I didn't mean to call the individual anti-semitic. I think that the information presented by this user is an anti-semitic meme (blaming the Jews) and more important than that it is disinformation. Notice the grain of truth (Israeli mafia sells ecstasy, legal MDMA research happening in Israel) mixed with the totally poisonous lie of people being force drugged with MDMA. I'm not accusing anyone of being an agent, but this is obviously tailor made disinfo. I'm sure hava1 thinks it's true - this is almost always the case with drug propaganda - but it isn't. Legitimate research should not be stopped because criminal syndicates sell a similar product (which isn't even that similar). If you want to stop the mafia then repeal prohibition.

[hava1]

Jeff, PW and Joe, thanks for validating. i had some login problems, now fixed i hope.

Undead, not sure how long youve been here, but we had that run on the issue. I've been called antisemitic by people here who thought i am spreading the meme, while my perspective was narrower as a Jewish israeli who sometimes comments on local corruption (in the context of this board it might be misread).

I really dont want to get into mdma/ecstasy debate, and drugs in general, i have no specific knowledge to add to the experts here. My point was -
1. Israeli victims have been used to run experiments, unethical even by local standards, for the benefits of VA and other american agencies. Kotler';s name has been whispered a propos mkultra. the case of his experiment on psych patients in Beer Sheva hospital was published in mainstreamest media here, a decade ago. (Yediot Ahronot). he administered mdma without consent.
2. dealing with that in the USA ran into difficulties, in addition to the usual ones, because most of the watch dog ngo's lawyers are jewish. that would be the same if the issue happened in france and the american lawyers were all french-born or so. but that's anecdotal, I adderssed the main Nader monitor org in DC, who then pushed for FDA regulation on exported experiments that violate human rights. The lawyers THERE were Jewish and reluctant to tackle my ISRAELI complaints.
3, first big indictment in israel with mdma import has been against an acting member of cabinet (minister) Gonen Segev, who is also an MD, and who kind of validated my speculation that it all started with the american research, and evolved into crime per se.
I have no opinion on criminalization of drug use, but I object unethical experiments or drugging of unwitting persons for rape, interrogation, abuse, exploitation, and research.
I hope that ends out little misunderstanding.
you should use the more common "self hating jew" w/r to me.

[wordspeak2]

"...a nefarious use for MDMA."
I meant a nefarious governmental control/MK-ULTRA use for MDMA. Using it wrongfully to seduce sexually... that's true, that happens.

I don't know exactly what took place ten years ago in the alleged MDMA experiments in Israel. I don't have Lexus- Nexus, so if anyone has access to said articles, I'd be interested. But I can't imagine spooks getting anywhere with considering MDMA as a drug they could somehow use. Also, it's pretty bizarre to imagine administering MDMA to unwitting subjects, when you could get a line around the block ten times for willing subjects. MAPS is on its way to doing experiments right now with willing subjects in Israel, and I'm grateful that the Israeli government is open to this sort of thing (the study has been approved by the Israeli Ethics Committee and Ministry of Health). According to MAPS they have enrolled several subjects and just need to finish fundraising.

Btw, I don't think you can "not have an opinion" on drug prohibition and be seen as having a clue as to what's going on in the world.

[hava1]

wordspeak, given your disrespectful opinion in the last paragraph, i suggest you do the leg work yourself. one does not labor under whips so well as before...

[undead]

Jeff, PW and Joe, thanks for validating. i had some login problems, now fixed i hope.

Undead, not sure how long youve been here, but we had that run on the issue. I've been called antisemitic by people here who thought i am spreading the meme, while my perspective was narrower as a Jewish israeli who sometimes comments on local corruption (in the context of this board it might be misread).

I really dont want to get into mdma/ecstasy debate, and drugs in general, i have no specific knowledge to add to the experts here. My point was -
1. Israeli victims have been used to run experiments, unethical even by local standards, for the benefits of VA and other american agencies. Kotler';s name has been whispered a propos mkultra. the case of his experiment on psych patients in Beer Sheva hospital was published in mainstreamest media here, a decade ago. (Yediot Ahronot). he administered mdma without consent.
2. dealing with that in the USA ran into difficulties, in addition to the usual ones, because most of the watch dog ngo's lawyers are jewish. that would be the same if the issue happened in france and the american lawyers were all french-born or so. but that's anecdotal, I adderssed the main Nader monitor org in DC, who then pushed for FDA regulation on exported experiments that violate human rights. The lawyers THERE were Jewish and reluctant to tackle my ISRAELI complaints.
3, first big indictment in israel with mdma import has been against an acting member of cabinet (minister) Gonen Segev, who is also an MD, and who kind of validated my speculation that it all started with the american research, and evolved into crime per se.
I have no opinion on criminalization of drug use, but I object unethical experiments or drugging of unwitting persons for rape, interrogation, abuse, exploitation, and research.
I hope that ends out little misunderstanding.
you should use the more common "self hating jew" w/r to me.

Okay, if it was in the mainstreamest media it shouldn't be too difficult to find a link. I am not taking your word for it. If they did use MDMA (at some point) in addition to the countless other drugs they use, that wouldn't surprise me. I am sure they have at least looked into it in the past. My main point is that we are talking about research with volunteers here, and the questionable incident you brought up is irrelevant to this conversation and off-topic. You use words like "apparently" and say that somebody has "whispered" Kotler's name. This means less than nothing. How about some evidence? If it really happened, start your own thread about it instead of trying to conflate legitimate psychedelic research with MKULTRA experiments.

[barracuda]

Oh, I don't know. I don't find it to be off-topic, really.

[undead]

unethical experimentation on same had been conducted by US research centers here in Israel on helpless unwitting patients of psychiatric institutes (one exposed by press, about 10 years ago, in Beer Sheva psychiatric hospital, a notorious guinea pig zone for the military).

It is not the same. It is completely different. This person is comparing unethical military experimentation on non-consenting captives in Israel, to privately funded voluntary scientific research in the United States. Two completely different scenarios. The people in the MAPS study have PTSD, the people in the (alleged but never substantiated) military experiments were psychiatric patients. This is a primitive attempt to conflate legitimate research with something unspeakably terrible, probably because this individual is a religious fundamentalist who doesn't like the idea of MDMA. Because they admit freely that they don't know a thing about it except that they think it causes people to be promiscuous. Here's an idea, if you don't know anything about a subject, you shouldn't post about it.

[Project Willow]

But I can't imagine spooks getting anywhere with considering MDMA as a drug they could somehow use. Also, it's pretty bizarre to imagine administering MDMA to unwitting subjects, when you could get a line around the block ten times for willing subjects.

I mentioned research (apparently documented) that occurred in the 1960's, hence the slang: "you dig?" There seems to be this odd defensive myopia going on here, so let me state that I don't believe anyone is attacking your favorite drug. I can't see where anyone has called out MAPS for nefarious activity either.

I will say, however, there is nothing laughable about unwitting dosing. I am familiar with the effects of MDMA, having been a young adult in the 80's, and I would not want to experience those effects out the blue, it would be very traumatizing.

It is not the same. It is completely different. This person is comparing unethical military experimentation on non-consenting captives in Israel, to privately funded voluntary scientific research in the United States.

I didn't read her as conflating the two, not at all. Besides, such a statement ignores the sophisticated discernment of the RI membership when it comes to recreational drugs.

[hava1]

If i were in the same work as before, this would be a coincidental catch (the information about the planned experiment by same). I am not monitoring those abuses anymore (thank god), so I am just interested as a veteran of the human rights/psych watch field.
its interesting why the experiment is exported to Israel, and I did try to dig a bit (back then) into the exportation of PTSD trials to Israel, apparently very common. I remember some little search I did into a Stanley Foundation, but do not remember much more. I think they were also funding some of the NGO's that were supposed to monitor their activities, but really not sure, it was a while ago.

PW, same here w/r drugging, that should be stopped. I also think that indirect attempts to "cure" subjects of experimentation without fully disclosing the treatment is a form of torture. I think its also being done, or tried. (to avoid acknowledgement of crimes and to avoid direct accountability, someone might be thinking "lets cure them" off hands, so to speak. not beyond the types. mdma could be a momentary "magic cure" to sign off a project).

[undead]

But I can't imagine spooks getting anywhere with considering MDMA as a drug they could somehow use. Also, it's pretty bizarre to imagine administering MDMA to unwitting subjects, when you could get a line around the block ten times for willing subjects.

I mentioned research (apparently documented) that occurred in the 1960's, hence the slang: "you dig?" There seems to be this odd defensive myopia going on here, so let me state that I don't believe anyone is attacking your favorite drug. I can't see where anyone has called out MAPS for nefarious activity either.

I will say, however, there is nothing laughable about unwitting dosing. I am familiar with the effects of MDMA, having been a young adult in the 80's, and I would not want to experience those effects out the blue, it would be very traumatizing.

It is not the same. It is completely different. This person is comparing unethical military experimentation on non-consenting captives in Israel, to privately funded voluntary scientific research in the United States.

I didn't read her as conflating the two, not at all. Besides, such a statement ignores the sophisticated discernment of the RI membership when it comes to recreational drugs.

Yes, dosing people without their consent is brain-rape. That's what psychiatrists and the CIA do. I have done psychedelic therapy sessions with a person who was dosed with LSD as a child, and I have also seen first hand what happens when someone is dosed without their consent. It is absolutely horrifying. This would be a great discussion for another thread, but it has nothing to do with American veterans getting treated for PTSD with MDMA.

edited to add:

So far in this thread, the discernment hasn't been very sophisticated. Or rigorous, for that matter. Just a bunch of hot air with no citations and bullshit propaganda about ecstasy harming your teeth. What is called "ecstasy" is not MDMA. People who know what it is don't call it that any more. So to say that ecstasy harms teeth is specious repetition of disinformation, and irrelevant to this conversation.

[dada]

I think it's ironic, that the biggest advocate of ecstasy [on edit: sorry, not ecstasy, but MDMA. My bad.] has so much anger in their posts. Where's the empathy, dude?

I have no doubt that ecstasy, administered in the right setting to someone in the right state of mind, can provide temporary relief for post trauma stress. But I think to make it stick, work on oneself is where the real healing happens. Whatever that means. But it's too soon to tell if this is a great idea or not; for all we know, after the glow wears off, say in ten years or so, the stress could come back even worse. It's just too soon to tell. But I can see how treating the vets is politically a strong issue for MAPS to make a priority.

I have no problem understanding how ecstasy could be used in interrogation. You've got your carrots, and you've got your sticks. If you're secretly experimenting on unwitting subjects, you want to keep an open mind about these things, and try everything. You never know what might be effective in getting the results you want, might be something you didn't expect. Take wine and hashish, for example. Nothing will get someone blabbing faster. In a casual setting, anyway.

One other thing, in relation to the original post, I think to get the most benefit from psychedelic substances, you need to first be psychologically sound. Whatever that means. There's this whole 'healing through psychoactive drugs' trend nowadays. Like the ibogane movement. Ibogaine is a rite of passage thing, but in the West it's billed as a trip that not only mitigates the symptoms of kicking dope, but turns junkies off to junk, maybe forever. I don't know... Not saying it doesn't help junkies get through the worst part of kicking, but it just seems to me that it's more like a vacation than a magic cure-all. And you're not going to get the full experience, like you would if you were already whole and exploring your consciousness, instead of doing it in a psychologically fragmented state and looking for healing. Same with the ecstasy. The fact that it's being used in a treatment setting already screws up the potential action of the drug. In my opinion, of course.

[undead]

I think it's ironic, that the biggest advocate of ecstasy [on edit: sorry, not ecstasy, but MDMA. My bad.] has so much anger in their posts. Where's the empathy, dude?

The empathy is for real people in real person-to-person interaction, not internet ghosts. Especially not ones that lie and spread drug propaganda.

The fact that it's being used in a treatment setting already screws up the potential action of the drug.

This statement doesn't make sense. The drug is the same wherever you take it. The experience is different in different settings. I think you mean the potential action of the person, as in their potential to have fun and make friends at a party. Of course people who are traumatized aren't going to be able to go where people who are stable and healthy can go. That doesn't mean that taking it in a treatment setting makes it less potent. The treatment setting allows a person to take a higher dose which they couldn't take if they were at a party being active, and this lets people go deeper into their consciousness to resolve trauma. Anyone who has significant experience with any of these substances will tell you that they are medicines and that recreational use has negative consequences for individuals as well as society at large. Of course recreation can be therapeutic, but a certain amount of respect and seriousness is required to have lasting benefits from the experience. It sounds like you are letting your own recreational experience color your perception of the treatment setting. That is, if you have any experience at all with these things. And if you don't, well, your opinion just doesn't matter.

[dada]

Well, I think both the treatment setting and the party setting are not where it's at. A psychologically healthy person in the proper setting is the way to go. All this "healing through psychedelics" is just another silly self-help fad. My opinion once again, of course.

And I'm surprised that MDMA didn't teach you, empathy is for everyone. If you don't think so, perhaps you didn't do it right.

[Peregrine]

The empathy is for real people in real person-to-person interaction, not internet ghosts. Especially not ones that lie and spread drug propaganda.

That's the second time you've referred to hava as a liar. Knock it off. Right off the bat you bulled over her while she remained civil. It wouldn't hurt you to do the same.