The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

[AhabsOtherLeg]

you've mixed up the quote tags man, those are jacks words.

Sorry Drew, I must've been quoting a post where you were speaking to each other, but I kept you as the author instead of him by mistake.

but though this experiment is post lysenko, it's still kinda interesting...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox
the russian silver fox aka blue fox

40 genes, 50 years, enhanced neoteny and bam, tame foxes

could there be tame humans?

That is very interesting, thanks, I didn't know about that project at all. Tame humans seem to have been an ongoing project since the first chieftain appointed the first high priest, but the technology has advanced a lot I fear. Still not sure if I would count fluoridation of drinking water as part of it, but somebody mentioned that the UK and US are among the few developed states who stuck with the idea... and the French and Spanish certainly seem to be a lot more strike-prone and actively demonstrative than we are. The Germans not so much, but then, they are German.

[christs4sale]

Here is information about combating fluoride toxicity. Iodine can cause issues if you have Hashimotos though.

While the debate continues, regarding benefits and adverse effects of fluoridation of our water supply and bromination of our food supply, what can one do to minimize the toxic effects of these 2 halides? One approach in decreasing the body burden of fluoride and bromide is orthoiodo-supplementation, that is iodine/iodide supplementation in daily amount for whole body sufficiency.

Null and Feldman wrote an excellent appraisal of the fluoride controversy in the last 3 issues of this journal. (1-3) Another halide with toxic effects on the thyroid gland and the central nervous system is bromide. (4-6) Daily doses of bromide as low as 1 mg/kg body weight/day resulted in goitrogenic and thyrotoxic effects in rats. (7) This amount is the acceptable daily intake (ADI) for bromide, as proposed by the FAQ/WHO Pesticides Committees. Based on studies in human volunteers and rats, Van Leeuven et al, suggested that the ADI should be 10 times lower. (7) So, the controversy about the safety of bromide continues.

Is there a practical and simple way to lower the body's burden of fluoride and bromide? It has been known for sometime now that bromide competes with chloride in the extracellular space and that the total molar concentration of bromide plus chloride remains constant. (8) This concept has been used to decrease extracellular bromide levels by saline loading. However, the presence of bromide in the thyroid gland (9) and the central nervous system (10) suggests that there is another intracellular "pool" of bromide, not responding to chloride.

In the thyroid gland, bromide competes with iodide for uptake, oxydation and organification. (9,11 and vido infra)

Therefore, increasing iodide intake should lower bromide levels in the thyroid, preventing and reversing its thyrotoxic and goitrogenic effects. The same applies to fluoride. Galletti and Joyet (12) evaluated the effect of 5-10 mg fluoride on thyroid functions in hyperthyroid patients. Although fluoride inhibited the iodide-concentrating mechanism of the thyroid, fluoride did not accumulate in the thyroid. Based on their radioactive tracer studies, they concluded "Fluorine does not impair the capacity of the gland to synthesize thyroid hormones when there is an abundance of iodide in the blood." Therefore, fluoride toxicity depends on iodide supply.

Based on a review of previous studies, we have calculated the amount of iodine/iodide necessary for sufficiency of the whole human body. (13) This amount was equivalent to 2 drops of Lugol solution, containing 5 mg iodine and 7.5 mg iodide. We tested a solid dosage form containing 2 drops of Lugol per tablet, administered daily for 3 months in 10 healthy women. There was no adverse effects observed on urinalysis, hematology, blood chemistry, thyroid functions and ultrasound of the thyroid. (14)

In the process of developing an iodine/iodide-loading test to assess sufficiency of the whole human body, we measured the amount of the 4 halides in 24h urine collections in 3 male and 3 female subjects under baseline conditions, and following a single ingestion of one, two and three tablets of the preparation, and in 5 of the subjects following one month on 3 tablets/day. Urinary levels of fluoride, chloride, bromide and iodide were measured by the ion-selective electrode procedure. (15) Chloride levels were measured directly in urine samples, and the other 3 halides were measured following chromatography on anion exchange resin. There was a progressive increase in urinary levels of fluoride and bromide with increasing intake of the preparation. The highest urinary levels were observed following 3 tablets. These high levels persisted even after one month on 3 tablets. The table presents the results obtained in a male subject following a single dose of one, two and three tablets; and after one month on 3 tabl ets of this preparation.

He did not reach iodine sufficiency even after one month on 3 tablets/day. Based on the results of the loading test, the body is considered iodine sufficient when at least 90% of the oral amount is excreted in the 24h urine collection. Urinary iodine levels in this subject were 149.6 uM/24h or 19 mg/24h representing only 51% of the dose.

The baseline level of urinary fluoride was very low, but bromide concentration was 18.4 mg/24h, 3 times the ADI recommended by Van Leeuwen et al. (6) Following supplementation with the iodine/iodide preparation, there was a progressive increase in the excretion of fluoride and bromide. With 3 tablets, the 24h excretion of fluoride was 17.5 times baseline level; and for bromide, 18 times baseline level. These high levels persisted even after one month of supplementation at 3 tablets/day, being 15 times baseline level for fluoride, and 16 times for bromide. After one month, the estimated total amount of halide excreted was 24 mg fluoride and 8700mg bromide. It is unlikely that such large amounts of halides came from the thyroid gland. It would seem that the whole body is being detoxified. Orthoiodo-supplementation could be used under medical supervision to detoxify the body from unwanted halides in a manner similar to the use of EDTA for the detoxification of heavy metals.


The last national nutritional survey revealed that 15% of the US adult female population are iodine-deficient by the WHO standard, that is less than 0.05 mg/L urine. (16) Over the last 20 years, iodine was replaced with bromine in the bread making process. (13) The risk ratio for breast cancer 40 years ago was one in twenty and now one in eight. (17) It is of interest to note that breast tissue contains lactoperoxydase which is capable of oxydation and organification of iodide and bromide. The breast needs iodine for normal function and protection against breast cancer. (13) High bromide levels in breast tissue would compete with iodine, interfering with the cancer-protecting role of iodine in the breast.

The RDA for iodine is based on the amount of iodine/iodide needed to prevent goiter, cretinism and hypothyroidism. The optimal requirement of the whole human body for iodine has never been studied. Based on a review of published data, we previously proposed that an amount of iodine 100 times the RDA would be required for iodine sufficient of the whole human body. (13) This amount is equivalent to 2 drops of Lugol solution. We are pursuing further research on the use of the orthoiodo supplementation as a means of detoxification of fluoride and bromide; and for prevention and control of fibrocystic disease of the breast and breast cancer.

Reprint of the manuscripts describing the orthoiodo-supplementation, the iodine/iodide loading test and the technique for measuring urinary halide levels are available at no charge, upon request.

Guy. E. Abraham, MD

c/o Optimox Corporation

P.O. Box 3378

Torrance, California 90510-3378

USA

800-223-1601

Fax:310-618-8748

optimox@iname.com

Effect of increasing intake of an Iodine/Iodide supplement (Iodoral[R]),
on urinary excretion of halides in a male subject

Supplementation*

Halide Pre 1 Tab 2 Tab 3 Tab 3 Tab x 1Mo

Fluoride (uM/24h) 2.8 12.0 22.6 48.9 42
Chloride (mM/24h) 297 341 305 333 370
Bromide (uM/24h) 230 240 584 4188 3625
Iodide (uM/24h) 0.76 25 59 109 149.6
Molar Ratio
Fluoride/Iodide 3.7 0.48 0.37 0.44 0.28
Bromide/Iodide 303 9.6 9.9 38.4 24.2
Chloride/Bromide 1291 1420 519 79 102.8

* 1 Tablet contains 7.5 mg of idoide as the potassium salt and 5 mg
iodine.

References

(1.) Null, G., Feldman, M., The Fluoride Controversy continues: An Update-Part 1.58. Townsend Letter, 233:58-62, 2002.

(2.) Null, G., Feldman, M., The Fluoride Controversy Continues: An Update -- Part 2...72. Townsend Letter, 234:72-78, 2003.

(3.) Null, G., Feldman, M., The Fluoride controversy Continues: An Update - Part 3...117. Townsend Letter, 235:117-121, 2003.

(4.) Ewing, J.A., Grant, WJ., The Bromide Hazard, South Med J, 58:148-152, 1965.

(5.) Sangster, B., et al, The influence of sodium bromide in man: A study in human volunteers with special emphasis on the endocrine and the central nervous system. Ed Chem Toxic, 21:409-419, 1983.

(6.) van Lecuwen, F.X.R., et al, The Effect of Sodium Bromide on Thyroid Function. Arch. Thxicol., Suppl. 12:93-97, 1988.

(7.) van Leeuwen, F.X.R., et al, Toxicity of Sodium Bromide in Rats: Effect on Endocrine System and Reproduction. Ed Chem Toxic, 21:383-389, 1983.

(8.) Wallace, G.B., Brodie, B.B., The distribution of administered bromide in comparison with chloride and its relation to body fluids. J. Pharmac exp Ther, 65:214-219, 1939.

(9.) Vobecky, M., Babicky, A., Effect of Enhanced Bromide Intake on the Concentration Ratio I/Br in the Rat Thyroid Gland. His. Trace Element Research, 43:509-513, 1994.

(10.) Brattgard, S.O., Lindqvist, T., Demonstration of 82BR in Nerve Cells. J. Neural Neurosurg. Psychi at., 17:11, 1954.

(11.) Velicky, I, at al, Potassium bromide and the thyroid gland of the rat: morphology and immunohistochemistry, RIA and INAA analysis. Ann Anat 179:421-431, 1997.

(12.) Galletti, P.M., Joyet, G., Effect of fluorine on thyroidal iodine metabolism in hyperthyroidism. J. Clin Endoerin, 18:1102-1110, 1958.

(13.) Abraham, G.E., et al, Othoiodosupplementation: Iodine Sufficiency of the Whole Human Body. The Original internist, 9:3041, 2002.

(14.) Abraham, G.E., et al, Optimum Levels of Iodine for Greatest Mental and Physical Health. The Original internist, 9:5-20, 2002.

(15.) Abraham, G.E., et al, Measurement of urinary iodide levels by ion-selective electrode: Improved sensitivity and specificity by chrematography on anion-exchange resin. Optimox Research Info #IOD-03. (Reprint available upon request).

(16.) Hollowell, J., et al, Iodine nutritien in the United States. Trends and public health implications: Iodine excretion data from natienal health and nutrition examination surveys land III 11971-19741 and 19881994). J Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, 83:2401-3408, 1998.

(17.)Epstein, S.S., Steinman, D., Breast Cancer Prevention Program. Macmillan, NY, 1998, pg5.

http://iodine4health.com/special/haloge ... logens.htm

[3×5]

This is interesting. I like the idea of eating sea vegetables. I have heard that when you're exposed to radiation, the iodine in seaweed will displace the radioactive iodine in your thyroid. However, I also read that the seaweed coming from Japan is radioactive, so I wonder if it then has the opposite effect, replacing the iodine in your thyroid with radioactive idodine.

Anyway, I am often frightened by statistics and scientific findings, because I don't know how to interpret them. If there is a link between fluoride and lowered IQ, what does this mean for me? How do I determine how many parts per billion are in my town's water supply, and how does this translate to lower IQ? Does it mean that it lowers IQ across the board, or that there are higher incidences of low IQ in the population, for those who are sensitive to the fluoride? Is it possible that I'm drinking fluoride, and my body and brain are unaffected by it, or am I necessarily affected?

It would be helpful to know what the findings mean in layman's terms.

[christs4sale]

Those who have run the studies that show iodine increasing excretion of fluorine, bromine and chlorine compound do not use kelp or another high-iodine seaweed in their studies. Generally, I believe that they use a more standardized form of iodine, because I have heard Dr. David Brownstein and Dr. Jorge Flechas say that the iodine content in seaweed is inconsistent and that iodine is very prone to evaporation. I believe that they are using Lugol's formula, Ioderol or another form of standardized iodine/iodide combination.

You should be able to go here to find out municipal water fluoride content: http://apps.nccd.cdc.gov/MWF/index.asp

[Iamwhomiam]

3x5 wrote:

Anyway, I am often frightened by statistics and scientific findings, because I don't know how to interpret them. If there is a link between fluoride and lowered IQ, what does this mean for me? How do I determine how many parts per billion are in my town's water supply, and how does this translate to lower IQ? Does it mean that it lowers IQ across the board, or that there are higher incidences of low IQ in the population, for those who are sensitive to the fluoride? Is it possible that I'm drinking fluoride, and my body and brain are unaffected by it, or am I necessarily affected?

It would be helpful to know what the findings mean in layman's terms.

I suggest you write directly to Paul Connett and ask him this, what the findings mean in layman's terms, and be sure to include a copy of the report, or a link to it. Your other questions too, I'm sure he or his wife Ellen would be glad to answer your other questions. Their contact info can be found here.

Fluoride negatively affects much more of your body's systems than your IQ.

Black Tea drinkers should take note of the quick facts item linked to here and on their home page: "Heavy tea drinkers risk fluoride-induced bone disease"

If you would like to research the topic further, the Fluoride Action Network has compiled the "Largest Scholarly Database For Fluoride Related Contaminants" available anywhere.

The Fluoride Action Network develops and maintains the world’s most comprehensive online database for fluoride compounds. Our various collections, which are continually expanding, are viewed and utilized by a wide spectrum of individuals, including students, journalists, medical researchers, historians, and government agencies. The information in the database is free and available for anyone seeking to educate themselves. As they say: information is power.

FAN's FAQ section for a cursory overview of fluoride, what it is, where it comes from and what are its human health impacts.

On this page are links to information on fluoride's human health effects. Topics linked to there are:
Arthritis, Gastrointestinal Effects, Bone Fracture, Hypersensitivity, Brain Effects, Kidney Disease, Cancer, Male Fertility, Cardiovascular Disease, Pineal Gland, Diabetes, Skeletal Fluorosis, Endocrine Disruption, Thyroid Disease and Acute Toxicity.

Hope you find this information helpful.

[justdrew]

http://www.cleanwaterportland.org/intro/

PORTLAND, TOGETHER WE SUBMITTED 43,236 PETITION SIGNATURES!

That’s over twice what we need to qualify the referendum giving us a right to vote on fluoridation, and we did it early, a day before the deadline!

So many thanks to everyone involved, we couldn’t have done it without people from the left, right and middle all working together for the common cause of protecting Portland’s drinking water and democratic process!

The Portland and Multnomah County Elections Offices will now begin the process of validation. They’ll disqualify a certain percentage of the signatures and release a final tally of the number of signatures they will accept. We expect this process to take 20-30 days. Stay tuned!

---

The effort to overturn the Portland City Council’s rushed decision to add fluoridation chemicals to Portland’s drinking water won a major victory on Thursday by submitting more than twice the number of signatures required to stop the fluoridation law from taking effect until voters could weigh in on the controversial decision. Most political pundits said the volunteer-run effort was unlikely to gather the 20,000 signatures needed, but a grassroots and bi-partisan volunteer effort along with professional signature collectors defied steep odds. Organizers had only a few weeks to organize the campaign in the face of what appeared to be an intentional effort by Commissioner Randy Leonard and Mayor Sam Adams to rush the decision through the City before there was time to organize for a referendum effort.

“In case there was any question, this overwhelming response sends a clear message that Portlanders value the quality of our drinking water,” said Kim Kaminski with Clean Water Portland and one of the chief petitioners for the referendum. “Adding what even the pro-fluoride backers admit is an industrial byproduct to our world-class drinking water in the name of protecting children’s teeth is misguided and increasing our water bills to pay for it is an insult.”

Frances Quaempts-Miller, also a chief petitioner on the referendum, agreed, “The notion that you do something good for low-income kids by adding more chemicals to our drinking water is an idea that’s 50 years out of date. As a woman and minority of Black and Muskogee Indian descent it’s sad that adding fluoridation chemicals to our water is the best that the City Council and fluoridation backers can come up with to help at-risk kids.”

Portlander Amanda Richards had been living in Guatemala with her fiancée but when she heard about the fluoridation referendum she took a plane back to Portland and has been an active volunteer. “It was such an honor to work with the Portland community on this issue,” said Richards. “Watching people from the left, the right and the middle all working together for the common cause of protecting Portland’s drinking water made me proud to be a Portlander.”

[conniption]

Unprecedented Fluoride Discussion On Irish Mainstream T.V.

Like 34 Dislike 0

Published on Mar 29, 2013

[Perelandra]

Portland, Ore., rejecting water fluoridation

PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) -- The mayor of Portland, Ore., has conceded defeat in an effort to add fluoride to the city's drinking water.

With more than 80 percent of the expected ballots counted late Tuesday night, the Multnomah County election website showed the fluoride proposal failing, 60 percent to 40 percent.

Mayor Charlie Hales supported fluoridation and said "the measure lost despite my own 'yes' vote.

"That's sure disappointing, but I accept the will of the voters," he said in a statement.

Fluoridation foes were delighted.

"We're very excited with how the numbers look," said Kellie Barnes with the anti-fluoride group Clean Water Portland.

If the early returns hold up, "then Portlanders spoke out to value our clean water and ask for better solutions for our kids."

Voters in Portland twice rejected fluoridation before approving it in 1978. That plan was overturned two years later, before any fluoride was ever added to the water.

The City Council voted last year to add fluoride to the water supply that serves about 900,000 people. But opponents quickly gathered enough signatures to force a vote on the subject.

Rejection of the proposal would keep Portland the largest U.S. city without fluoride in the water or with plans to add it. San Jose, Calif., — which is larger than Portland — has been working to add fluoride to its water supply.

Voters had weeks to make their choice in the mail-ballot election. By Tuesday it was too late to rely on the postman, so drop boxes were placed across the city to accommodate those who waited until the final day.

"We were still getting ballots from drop sites close to 8 p.m.," said Eric Sample, a Multnomah County elections spokesman. That meant a "pretty darn long night" of vote counting that likely would stretch into Wednesday, he said.

Supporters and opponents of fluoridation raised hundreds of thousands of dollars and traded accusations of sign-stealing and shoddy science in an election that has been the city's most contentious of the 21st century.

A sampling of voters dropping off ballots earlier Tuesday in rainy Pioneer Courthouse Square found people opposed to fluoridation.

"People don't like change. When in doubt, say no," said Tracy Rauscher, a native Portlander who, like a native Portlander, did not use an umbrella.

Portland's drinking water already contains naturally occurring fluoride, though not at levels considered to be effective at fighting cavities. Backers of fluoridation say adding more of it to the water is a safe, effective and affordable way to improve the health of low-income children whose parents don't stress proper nutrition and dental hygiene.

Opponents describe fluoride as a chemical that will ruin the city's pristine water supply, and they argue that adding it would violate an individual's right to consent to medication.

Although most Americans drink water treated with fluoride, it has long been a contentious topic. In the 1950s, fluoridation was feared as a Communist plot. Today, people worry that its effect on the body has not been sufficiently examined.

"I don't want chemicals in my water," Sarah Lazzaro said after voting Tuesday. "I know that there are really no known health risks with it, but there's a lot of things we find out later in life really do have health risks."

The issue re-appeared on Portland's radar late last summer, when health organizations that had quietly lobbied the City Council for a year persuaded the panel to unanimously approve fluoridation by March 2014.

Days before the vote, 227 people — most of them opponents — signed up to testify at a public hearing that lasted 6 1/2 hours. When their objections weren't heeded, they quickly gathered tens of thousands of signatures to force Tuesday's vote.

[justdrew]

well that went well

slightly under 40% voted for fluoride. I suspected it was going to be a big NO, just based on yard-signs. The areas where I saw the most Yes signs, was in the richest areas. oddly.

[Wombaticus Rex]

[Tame humans seem to have been an ongoing project since the first chieftain appointed the first high priest, but the technology has advanced a lot I fear.

AMEN

[stickdog99]

I just realized that I am personally drinking fluoride and chloramine by the gallon.

I did not realize that my locality was so damn stupid. How do I rid my drinking water of this crap?

[justdrew]

I just realized that I am personally drinking fluoride and chloramine by the gallon.

I did not realize that my locality was so damn stupid. How do I rid my drinking water of this crap?

reverse osmosis, but those rigs aren't cheap. (or in my impression all that durable)

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080527143222AARnGSa
http://www.multipure.com/

I don't know about bottled water, I do know some bottled water is just local tap water lightly filtered and bottled.


---

all that said, and glad we're not adding it, but...
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4058

but this seems quite plausible...

[stickdog99]

all that said, and glad we're not adding it, but...
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4058

I would actually like to punch the skepdick who wrote that load of horseshit.

WTF kind of argument is that that? "Everybody has agreed that fluoridation is just dandy for a long time, so you have to prove it is a dangerous health hazard or else you are depriving children of its wondrous health benefits."

Let's see the proof that it is beneficial.

Let's see the proof that its benefits outweigh its costs and risks.

Even then, WTF does fluoride's supposed attenuation of tooth decay, even if it is not the crock of shit we all know it to be, have to do with our drinking water? I mean, why not put fish oil, vitamin D and psyllium husks in our drinking water if the only thing you need to justify such an addition is a supposed health benefit wholly unrelated to the water itself? I'm sure fish oil, vitamin D and psyllium husks manufacturers would cheer such absurd policy decisions just as aluminum and fertilizer manufacturers cheer the profit they now make from the sale of their industrial waste products.

[justdrew]

too true. and yet, some areas the water is naturally flourodated, or at least it was at one time (perhaps they use different sources now, IDK), but they guy who discovered the dental values did so after investigating why certain people in (Colorado and Texas?) had odd colored teeth and low cavity rates. but no matter what there's no good reason to add it to the water, though I heard chlorination may have some bad effects to.

[stickdog99]

If fluoridated people have low cavity rates, it's because tooth eating microbes don't particularly like poison.