Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

[Plutonia]

Wakefield RPF'd for Downstat!

DOWNSTAT:

1. one with low, declining statistics. (HCO PL 31 Jan 69, Humanitarian Objective and Gung-Ho groups) 2. downstats are defined as ill or enturbulated persons. (SO ED 36 INT)

[undead]

Well, there is this thread, for starters. If one searches threads about psychiatry, chances are they will find a post from you defending it dutifully. C2W used to do this job before you were moderator. Why expressing opinions against clinical psychiatry is such a concern, I don't really know. That a person can't be a well-intentioned advocate for reform in mental health, but must necessarily be a secret Scientologist, doesn't make sense. Apparently now it is all pharmaceutical industry criticism that Scientology has a monopoly on. Maybe they were behind the resistance to the Swine Flu vaccine, too.

Anyway, I am always honest about my perspective on these issues, being a psychiatric survivor and also having worked with autistic people. You, on the other hand, do not explain your persistent interest in arguing the opposing viewpoint, which makes you look like a pharmaceutical industry hack. I don't know that for sure, I'm just saying that's what it looks like. It doesn't really matter that much to me, since I doubt many minds are being made up based on the discussions in this tiny forum.

[barracuda]

Yes, Deer's claims conclusively prove Deer's claims! LOL

LOLLLL. Have you got any statistics which conflict with those presented in the two charts?

This is the "journalism" of your champion! LOL

LOLLLLLL. My champion? What are you even arguing here, dude? FWIW, I don't have any problem with the journalistic examples you've bolded there. At all. But I can understand how a supporter of Wakefield might view askance being characterised as a "sad rump". So I empathise with you there.

I will anxiously await the first article in which...

LOLLLLLLLL. Keep waiting, man. One thing's for sure, people rarely do just what you'd like them to. But it doesn't really prove much when they don't.

[barracuda]

Well, there is this thread, for starters.

Oh yeah, I remember that thread - the one in which we had to institute a new rule to keep you from endlessly endorsing CoS propaganda. Good example.

[undead]

I should add that an explanation more likely than pharmaceutical industry hack is mainstream consumer psychiatric patient / antidepressant customer who is resentful of being screwed. But that would be getting too personal and I'm not that interested in your personal life. That's just the typical profile of the useful idiots that defend psychiatric medications.

[stickdog99]

LOLLLLLL. My champion?

You have unequivocally declared Wakefield the worst kind of fraud. When I asked for evidence of your certainty, the only evidence you have ever supplied (even in the other thread you linked) is that which Deer -- your obvious champion on this issue -- mounted. Or am I somehow mistaken on this account?

LOLLLLLL.

[barracuda]

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL.

Why exactly would I need more evidence when you haven't dealt with Deer's definitive unraveling in the first place? As far as I can tell, no one has countered his research yet, that I've seen. Certainly not Wakefield himself. LOL

[Plutonia]

*sigh*

Monday, April 17, 2006
Autism Parrots
One of the most irritating aspects of the mercury-causes-autism movement has to be their use of partially-trained parrots to carry on their side of the "debate". I put "debate" in inverted commas because there is no real debate going on - at least not in the sense of an intelligent exchange of viewpoints and arguments. Instead, the mercury-causes-autism proponents simply repeat - ad nauseum - the same tired, threadbare and often contradictory sound bites they have received from the "gurus" of mercurial autism.

For example, a typical exchange on this blog and many other venues might go like this:

Mercury-Causes-Autism (MCA): "Our kids aren't autistic, they're mercury-poisoned!"

Skeptic (S): "How do you know this?"

MCA: "Because my kid is getting better on chelation!"

S: "Isn't it possible that he's getting better because of the normal progression of the disorder?"

MCA: "Are you calling me a liar?!?"

S: "No, I'm just suggesting that you might be wrong. How do you know that it's the chelation that's making him better?"

MCA: "Because he's mercury-poisoned, that's why!"

(rinse, repeat)

The sad fact is that most (if not all) of the people arguing that mercury causes autism haven't got a clue what they're talking (shouting? spraying spittle?) about. Even among the "leading lights" of the mercury-causes-autism, there are few who could cogently explain how mercury disrupts protein function, let alone how it could cause autism without also causing the other hallmark signs of mercury poisoning. Of course, nobody can explain the latter - which is why the mercury-causes-autism crowd is now trying to "prove" their case in the courts, including the "court of public opinion".

In his latest newsletter, Uber-Parrot Lenny Schafer admits that the scientific merits of his pet hypothesis is utterly bankrupt. From Kev Leitch's weblog:

"Myself and other autism activists believe there is enough evidence to support a causative relationship between mercury and autism in a court of law, in front of a jury, where standards of evidence are different than that of the narrow focus of scientific findings. And if you can convince a jury, you can convince the public." (italics mine)

So, there you have it: Uber-Parrot Schafer publicly admits that the mercury-causes-autism hypothesis is dead and their only hope is try to win through propaganda and subterfuge what they couldn't prove by data.

Unfortunately, the cause of autism won't be determined by some sort of popularity contest or even an election. Unlike the worlds of business, public relations and venture capital, there are objective truths in science (Paul Feyerabend notwithstanding). If Schafer and Co. manage to "convince" the public that they are right, that mercury causes autism, will that change the facts of the matter? No.

In fact, this attempted end-run by Schafer, Blaxill, Handley and the rest of that sorry crew is likely to have a catastrophic effect on autism research, postponing any real discoveries by decades. After all, once the courts (or the legislatures) have ruled that autism is caused by mercury, then it's a simple matter: pay damages to the families, remove mercury from vaccines and other medications and then file it away under "closed cases".

But, of course, real autism isn't that simple. Only the mercury-causes-autism proponents are that simple.

So, what happens when ten or twenty years go by and there are still autistic children in the 3 - 5 year age range? And this is a certainty, mind you, not just a "what if". Well, it is possible that the mercury-causes-autism people will manage to convince the courts or public opinion or the legislatures that the sky is still falling and that the trace amounts of mercury in the air, food and water are the cause. And, given the abysmally short attention span of the public, this might just work.

However, we would still be no closer to finding out what actually causes autism than we are at this moment - in fact, we would be worse off. After all, having "definitively proven" (in the courts, legislatures and public opinion polls) that mercury causes autism, nobody (except those few real scientists involved in autism research) would care to look any further.

And once we've reduced mercury exposure to the background level (after all, mercury has been in the environment for 4.6 billion years or more), what then? Do we move everybody into orbit - or the moon? And what do we do when autism continues to occur even on our Mars colonies?

Clearly, long before any of this comes to pass, even "the public" will awaken to the fact that they've been bamboozled by the mercury-causes-autism crowd. And then the whole parrot-driven mercury-causes-autism hypothesis will be given a proper burial.

Or we can bury it now. It already smells dead.


Prometheus

[Joe Hillshoist]

The only thing clear to me at this point is that Deer cherry picked his case against Wakefield at least as much as Wakefield cherry picked his case against MMR.

Yeah that may be true, but the consequences for other people of Deer cherry picking his case aren't necessarily the same as the consequences of Wakefield doing it are they?




In australia over 50 years vaccination has improved public health. Now that may change as other evidence appears but people have been searching for that evidence for a while and as of yet it ain't that convincing.

We are talking about competing risks here. The risks of vaccination vs not vaccinating, not just for individuals but for a community.

One question tho, if you had a child and had to take them overseas into an environment say Africa, would you vaccinate them against diphtheria, rabies or yellow fever?

[stickdog99]

Deer's definitive unraveling

But he's not your champion?

[stickdog99]

*sigh*

Monday, April 17, 2006
Autism Parrots
One of the most irritating aspects of the mercury-causes-autism movement has to be their use of partially-trained parrots to carry on their side of the "debate".[/b]

OK. Now which messenger exactly are you trying to kill with this load of skepdick strawman tripe?

And why the fuck is mercury in vaccines anyway again?

[stickdog99]

The only thing clear to me at this point is that Deer cherry picked his case against Wakefield at least as much as Wakefield cherry picked his case against MMR.

Yeah that may be true, but the consequences for other people of Deer cherry picking his case aren't necessarily the same as the consequences of Wakefield doing it are they?

Really? So the fact that Deer's inquisition of Wakefield has killed the first and only controlled study of vaccinated vs. non-vaccinated primates is of no consequence to anyone? While I am on this subject: WHY THE FUCK DID IT COME DOWN TO WAKEFIELD AND CREW TO FINALLY PERFORM SUCH A RUDIMENTARY TOXICOLOGY STUDY?

In australia over 50 years vaccination has improved public health. Now that may change as other evidence appears but people have been searching for that evidence for a while and as of yet it ain't that convincing. We are talking about competing risks here. The risks of vaccination vs not vaccinating, not just for individuals but for a community.

Let's see if I can follow your line of reasoning. Because widespread vaccination has coincided with better health outcomes for the public at large and the vaccine/autism link has not yet been proven, we must support all vaccines and vaccine ingredients as a matter of course without regard to their individual medical cost & risk vs. medical reward profiles?

Here's my big problem with vaccination "science" in general. Conventional wisdom says that the reward always exceeds the risk. Because of this, no real, hard science studies have ever been undertaken to actually quantify the risks or the rewards. Vaccines conquered polio and small pox, so all vaccines and vaccine ingredients must be wonderful things! Since it is (supposedly) unethical to do these studies on humans (because you would be denying some the magic modern elixir of health that cannot ever be questioned), no studies can be done on humans. And the first study done on primates was just singlehandedly squashed by Deer's seven plus year crusade against Wakefield.

[barracuda]

And why the fuck is mercury in vaccines anyway again?

It isn't. At least in the United States, thiomersal has been systematically removed from infant vaccines for the last ten years.

Despite the lack of convincing evidence of toxicity of thiomersal when used as a vaccine preservative, the USPHS and AAP determined that thiomersal should be removed from vaccines as a purely precautionary measure. This action was based on the precautionary principle, which assumes that there is no harm in exercising caution even if it later turns out to be unnecessary. The CDC and AAP reasoned that despite the lack of evidence of significant harm in the use of thiomersal in vaccines, the removal of this preservative would increase the public confidence in the safety of vaccines. Although thiomersal was largely removed from routine infant vaccines by summer 2001 in the U.S., some vaccines continue to contain non-trace amounts of thiomersal, mainly in multi-dose vaccines targeted against influenza and tetanus

[Plutonia]

@stickdog99

Autism and Scientology?

Category: Alternative medicine • Autism • Quackery
Posted on: November 8, 2006 2:01 PM, by Orac

Is there a connection between Scientology and the mercury militia? Kevin Leitch examines the evidence. As he points out, it's not as far-fetched as it might seem at first:

Everybody knows that Scientology has an almost rabid outlook on psychiatry and what they deem psychiatric labels. Its so bad that Xenu-lover John Travolta is allegedly hiding the fact of his son's autism for fear of offending his masters in Scientology.

Scientologists have a natural theoretical affinity with the mercury militia and in particular the DAN! ideology. They are firmly against medication and firmly in favour of 'detoxification' when combined with saunas. The belief is that detoxification 'loosens' the toxins which are then sweated out in intense saunas. Sounds familiar right?

Just like the moonies, scientology has untold business interests in all-natural and CAM based treatments, particularly detoxification treatments. So, when you combine business interests with religious zeal you get people highly motivated to move in on people they target.

Are there any scientologists targeting autism? Oh yes. Scary but true.

Looking at Kev's article, although I'm not sure if the linkages described by Kev are just cooincidences due to similar interests in detoxification woo, I do find it rather disturbing just how many Scientologists are involved in selling the dubious mercury-autism connection. I also fear for Kev. Scientology is well known for being exceedingly litigious and bullying when it comes to criticism.

*snip*
Comments:

3 Scientologists were also behind several lawsuits against Novartis, the maker of Ritalin (methylphenidate), one of the drugs used to treat ADHD, another neurological developmental disorder that scientology claims either A: does not exist, or B: can be cured by various ultra-woo (yes, ultra-woo, scientology is light-years beyond normal woo-ness...they are the Branch Davidians of woo).

The suits were dismissed after (among other things) their non-ABMS-certified "psychiatrist" Peter Breggin was found to have essentially made up most of his testimony from a combination of scientology shtick and the voices in his head. On a more serious note, several different judges in the state and federal courts where these suits were heard all accused Mr. Breggin of perjuring himself in their courtroom. These guys made the TMLC look like Perry Mason.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if they were going after autistic kids next. Soon they'll probably be claiming to cure deafness, blindness, and erectile dysfunction (oh, wait, maybe that was why Tom Cruise joined).

The thing is, Scientologists on their own are not horribly dangerous. Everyone knows that they are cranks, and they're basically the punchline to a joke that everyone but them gets. However, you would be amazed at how their talking points wind up getting quoted by well-meaning but clueless people, having been completely "cleansed" of their original source. I highly doubt that they'll manage to win a thimerosal lawsuit, even the Geiers or Wakefield wouldn't work with them, but if they decide to turn their sights on it, just wait a few months and plenty of people will be talking about how "I read somewhere that those vaccines can cause autism, even these groups of scientists are talking about it."

The good news is that a group of mentally ill people who militantly refuse to take medication really aren't going to be too successful in the end.

Ahttp://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2007/08/attempts-at-intimidationAttempts%20at%20intimidation

I was interviewed for and quoted in the latest edition of Nature Medicine (oops caught by Ms Clark). The piece in question was an uneasy look at the continuing and escalating violent overtones emanating from the mercury militia – parents who believe against all evidence that their kids autism was caused by vaccines.

The piece started with a look at the experiences Paul Offit faces now and then:

....as Paul Offit, a vaccine expert who served on the committee, tried to make his way through the crowd, one of the protestors screamed at him through a megaphone: “The devil—it’s the devil!” One protester held a sign that read “TERRORIST” with a photo of Offit’s face. Just before Offit reached the door, a man dressed in a prison uniform grabbed Offit’s jacket. “It was harrowing,” Offit recalls.

and….

He has since received hundreds of malicious and threatening emails, letters and phone calls accusing him of poisoning children and “selling out” to pharmaceutical companies. One phone caller listed the names of Offit’s two young children and the name of their school. One email contained a death threat—”I will hang you by your neck until you’re dead”—that Offit reported to federal investigators.

Offit’s crime? He’s performed science that doesn’t support the vaccine/autism hypothesis and spoke out about it.

His experiences mirror those of scientist Paul Shattuck who also published science that didn’t support the vaccine hypothesis. After a highly inaccurate smear campaign from the National Autism Association, Shattuck also received threats:

One person said, Don't be surprised if you get a knock on your door in the middle of the night and I'll be there. Another message said it was easy in the age of the Internet to find out where people live.

Arthur Allen and Professor Roy Grinker have also been on the receiving end of threats of violence:

these people need to be horse whipped…

I’ve also been on the receiving end of various nastiness. From the cowardly actions of John Best who once compared my autistic daughter to a monkey after I related how well she was doing and his follow ups:

....My wife bought too many bananas so I’ll send some for your daughter …..

...Perhaps you can teach your daughter to swing from tree to tree…

we can see how little the mercury militia actually value children. John followed this up by joining the AWARES conference under the username ‘megan leitch’ and posting more cowardly material. John’s regulars at his blog thought this hilarious. John’s blog regulars are anonymous members of the Evidence of Harm Yahoo Group. People who say they care about autistic kids and the discrimination they face.

Recently, this blog was blessed with a series of short lived visits from Ray Gallup, the co-founder of the Vaccine Autoimmune Project. He started off with a series of sneery comments – par for the course and easily deflected. However, he then decided to start posting under the names of others, including fellow antivaxxer Alan Rees and the afore mentioned Dr Paul Offit. It was easy to spot it was him because the IP address was exactly the same.

Shortly after this I was forwarded an email from someone who had followed the Gallup idiocy (he’s banned now by the way) and had mailed him to ask what he was up to – here is the first reply:


Dear ****:

I heard through the grapevine that the Kevin Leitch crowd and his fellow swine assholes where accusing me and Alan Rees of putting things on their website/blog. These people are a bunch of scumbags and I wouldn’t waste my time with dumb fucken people.

Thanks.

Ray Gallup

Except you did Ray. So why lie about it?

Anyway, that was just the starter. The main course that followed showed yet again, the full extent of the bitter hate and violent tendencies of the mercury militia:


Dear ****:

Since you seem to follow what is going on with the Leitch list let me know if Leitch, Deer and the others get hit with a fast moving truck or bus that leaves their carcasses mangled and bloodly on the street.

I will be devotely praying night and day that something like this happens to them and their followers. Especially since these creeps say such hurtful things to parents. They deserve all the best in something terrible happening to every last one of them and I will pray daily.

I usually pray for good things for families that suffer but in their case I will make a big exception.

Ray Gallup

Jim Laidler was also interviewed for the Nature piece. His words are worrying but I cannot deny their veracity:

This stuff is frighteningly violent,” Laidler says. “With the Omnibus trial looking like [the Cedillos] are going to go down in flames, I would be appalled, but not surprised, to hear that some act of violence was carried out.

Its certainly gearing up for that. It was only recently that Brad Handley of Generation Rescue said to me:

If we were on a rugby pitch, Kev, I’d put my boot in your eye and twist…

These are a set of people winding themselves up like a bunch of toddlers ready to have a major tantrum. But they aren’t toddlers. These are, amazingly, adults. I challenge them to find a single incidence of any Autism Hub blogger threatening violence towards antivaccers/autism believers.

[undead]

[edited to remove incorrect quote, sorry Joe]

I'm talking about the risk for individuals, and an individual's right to raise their children without having the government force them to have their children vaccinated. I'm not even going to deny that this can be detrimental to public health aims, because it obviously can be. This should be an incentive for drug companies to develop safer vaccines, because if people don't have a choice then then can put whatever garbage they want in them. Some people don't want to vaccinate their kids, for whatever reason. Usually it's on spiritual or religious grounds, or because they are skeptical (in the non-Orwellian sense) of the conventional wisdom.

As far as the "mercury militia" talk goes, that is obviously pre-packaged propaganda, and doesn't serve any function other than to make the discussion retarded.