"Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

[DoYouEverWonder]

We're spending trillions for armies and hi-tech equipment, but when a real emergency happens we're defenseless.

[MacCruiskeen]

By the way:

Beredskapstroppen (BT) (English Contingency [sic] Platoon), call sign Delta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beredskapstroppen

Well, "contingency" is one way of putting it, but that English word obscures more than it clarifies. Beredskap is almost identical to the German word Bereitschaft, the primary meaning of which is (cue drum roll)...






readiness






ka-boom-tish.

(And no, I'm not joking.)

Indeed, readiness is the primary meaning of Beredskap in Norwegian too. (I just double-checked.)

No doubt that's why Norway's special police SWAT unit -- Beredskapstroppen ("Readiness Troop"), aka Delta Force -- has access to three dozen helicopters of three different kinds (see page 2 of this thread), courtesy of the Royal Norwegian Air Force. And no doubt that's why those elite cops have that very name. Because they clearly expected, and expect, to have to be ready when the unpleasant and unexpected happens.

As it does sometimes, even in quaint old Norway.

[Dradin Kastell]

For air transport Beredskapstroppen uses military Bell 412 SP [HELICOPTERS] from the RNoAF.[Royal Norwegian Air Force]

From the RNoAF [Royal Norwegian Air Force] Aircraft Inventory (here at Wiki), we learn that they have not only eighteen (in figures:18) Bell 412 SP helicopters in service, but also six (in figures: 6) Westland Lynx helicopters and twelve (in figures:12) Westland Sea King helicopters in addition to that.

That's thirty-six (in figures: 36) helicopters in total.

According to Wikipedia, 6 RNoAF air stations operate the Bell 412 SP, the Westland Lynx and the Westland Sea King: Bodø, Banak, Ørland, Bardufoss, Rygge and Sola. Of these, Bodø, Banak, Bardufoss and Ørland can be written off immediately because of distance, all being in Northern Norway above Trondheim.

Then there are Sola and Rygge. Sola is 300 km from Oslo, and scrambling a helicopter from there would still take a lot of time even if one was ready to go immediately when Oslo requested it.

Rygge is about 60 km away: to me this means that a RNoAF helicopter could only come from Rygge in time. Norwegian Wikipedia says Rygge has six Bell 412 SPs and one Sea King.

This is still a fair number of helicopters, but considerably less than 36.

[MacCruiskeen]

Rygge is about 60 km away: to me this means that a RNoAF helicopter could only come from Rygge in time. Norwegian Wikipedia says Rygge has six Bell 412 SPs and one Sea King.

This is still a fair number of helicopters, but considerably less than 36.

It's seven. And even seven is considerably more than one. Especially one that was allegedly too far away to use, and allegedly had no available crew anyway, because they were allegedly all away on holiday.

Also, Dradin, you are forgetting that the entire country was on high alert after a huge bomb had exploded in the government quarter of the capital Oslo nearly two hours before the massacre even started. Military and police resources, and stand-by emergency services, will surely have been directed towards the major population centres, of which there are few in Norway, and of which Oslo (24 driving-miles from the shoreline facing Utoeya) is the main one.

Rygge is about 60 km away

Flight-time to the massacre-island how many minutes (for any one of those seven helicopters, or for all of them)? I guess about one minute, or certainly less than five, but maybe someone (not you) will tell me that Norwegian Air Force /Beredskapstropp helicopters also move at a snail's pace, so I will check it.

[stickdog99]

First of all - liability would simply prevent it

When they finally got the Utoya, they (finally) requisitioned civilian boats to get there. So what happened? Liability lawyers on holiday?

[stickdog99]

i have Norwegian friends and have traveled there when i was younger, mostly hitchhiking and they're the some of most mild mannered, laid back people i've met. even their business culture reflects this. it's a big country with very few people. the population of Oslo is half a million. consensus is a big deal there. i think comparing and evaluating their institutions and culture on imperial US or British templates tends to bring confusion. the police patrol unarmed. watching NRK live feeds after the attacks you'd see people walking up to officers on patrol in groups and applauding. there is criticism by hardliners who want things to be more action packed and hollywood-manly (which i suspect will happen) but mostly people are proud of how they handled things.

People are proud it took 78 minutes for the police to get to Utoya?

[MacCruiskeen]

People are proud it took 78 minutes for the police to get to Utoya?

No, they're angry about that shocking delay, and baffled by it. That's why the Norwegian govt has announced a public inquiry into the delay, and in particular into why no helicopters were used, although Norway's Beredskapstropp is demonstrably very well equipped with helicopters of various kinds.

[MacCruiskeen]

Who sent the crew members on vacation? Who gave the orders not to fly helicopters to the island? Who is ultimately responsible for deploying the choppers? These are the questions. We must go UP the chain of command.

Precisely, sunny. Norway's a country with a tiny population where many people know each other, and many people there are incredulous about the delayed response, as well they might be. They are asking serious questions and expecting serious answers, as the Norwegian newspapers made clear. So maybe this quickly-announced public inquiry will actually be serious and have some real investigative powers and actually get somewhere.

Scandinavian social democracy is not dead yet, least of all in Norway.

[Nordic]

Hopefully Norway will conduct a REAL investigation of this, and get to the bottom of it.

Because it is certainly obscenely ridiculous that it took so long. I don't think that is in dispute.

It's my contention that the bomb blasts in downtown Oslo were, while in theory a reason to ramp everything up and to be ready on a moment's notice, actually a diabolically brilliant diversion, and caused a great deal of chaos, and people pulling out the notes from all the counter-terrorism classes they had, trying to remember what they were supposed to do in such a situation.

In other words chaos and confusion and fear of doing the wrong thing rather than heightened readiness.

I hope that's all it was and not some evil conspiracy, as it almost certainly would have been in our own country.

[Searcher08]

Hopefully Norway will conduct a REAL investigation of this, and get to the bottom of it.

Because it is certainly obscenely ridiculous that it took so long. I don't think that is in dispute.

It's my contention that the bomb blasts in downtown Oslo were, while in theory a reason to ramp everything up and to be ready on a moment's notice, actually a diabolically brilliant diversion, and caused a great deal of chaos, and people pulling out the notes from all the counter-terrorism classes they had, trying to remember what they were supposed to do in such a situation.

In other words chaos and confusion and fear of doing the wrong thing rather than heightened readiness.

I hope that's all it was and not some evil conspiracy, as it almost certainly would have been in our own country.

One of the interesting things is that on the guys Facebook page, he was a fan of Max Manus, who was the leading Norwegian Resistance fighter against the Nazis during WW2. Norway brutally was occupied and utterly outgunned, but this guy really helped them 'punch above their weight'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Manus

Manus was a specialist in sabotage - if this guy was 'emulating' him, there may have been sabotage somewhere in the communication chain.

[tazmic]

Who sent the crew members on vacation?

Apparently police-force budget cuts ground their sole observation helicopter over the summer weeks.

But Delta don't use that. It's not appropriate. That's why they have their own. (btw, how long between the bomb and the shooting?)

Yes, the police took a long time to reach the island, but they knew that Special Forces were going there, and to take out someone dressed as the police. They were all waiting for Delta.

So the question is just why Delta took so long - why they didn't use a helicopter - why they didn't use one of their boats (or have it prepped whilst they were driving), why they didn't... plan ahead.

All these sources saying 'it's a shame we couldn't get police there quicker but our chopper was unavailable' are conflating this.

Unless of course DELTA just have a special office next to the police broom cupboard and maybe twice a year get to practice in the 'real' army helicopter instead of taking it in turns to ride in the police one when the photographer is off sick.

[vanlose kid]

i have Norwegian friends and have traveled there when i was younger, mostly hitchhiking and they're the some of most mild mannered, laid back people i've met. even their business culture reflects this. it's a big country with very few people. the population of Oslo is half a million. consensus is a big deal there. i think comparing and evaluating their institutions and culture on imperial US or British templates tends to bring confusion. the police patrol unarmed. watching NRK live feeds after the attacks you'd see people walking up to officers on patrol in groups and applauding. there is criticism by hardliners who want things to be more action packed and hollywood-manly (which i suspect will happen) but mostly people are proud of how they handled things.

People are proud it took 78 minutes for the police to get to Utoya?

hiya ..., i was reporting on what i saw on the NRK livefeed or the norwegians. you want to take it up with them? or are they part of your grand conspiracy scenario too? or is it just that going around slinging shit is part of your mode of being, cause you've been doing it for quite some time? what kind of satisfaction do you get from it?

edit: deleted a bit of namecalling, but i do find the overly snide self-satisfied remarks a lot more offensive. IMO. (Thanks Ahab.)

*

[Canadian_watcher]

could all of this simply be the classic problem, reaction, solution:

1. Problem: we don't have enough heavily armed, highly trained, available law enforcement in Norway..
2. Reaction: Please give us more police/special forces!
3. Solution: Due to public outcry in the wake of the Utoya massacre.....

just as simple as that?

[tazmic]

One of the interesting things is that on the guys Facebook page, he was a fan of Max Manus, who was the leading Norwegian Resistance fighter against the Nazis during WW2. Norway brutally was occupied and utterly outgunned, but this guy really helped them 'punch above their weight'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Manus

Manus was a specialist in sabotage - if this guy was 'emulating' him, there may have been sabotage somewhere in the communication chain.

I heard this datum was missing from the edited page?

Here (unfiltered google search):

"In the second profile, Breivik’s interest in Winston Churchill and Max Manus, the leader of the Norwegian anti-Nazi resistance, have been deleted, presumably because they don’t fit with the psychological profile that Breivik was a right-wing neo-Nazi who had links with the English Defence League."

http://colonel6.com/2011/07/25/anders-behring-breivik-manufacturing-a-patsy/

[hanshan]

..

Who sent the crew members on vacation?

Apparently police-force budget cuts ground their sole observation helicopter over the summer weeks.

But Delta don't use that. It's not appropriate. That's why they have their own. (btw, how long between the bomb and the shooting?)

Yes, the police took a long time to reach the island, but they knew that Special Forces were going there, and to take out someone dressed as the police. They were all waiting for Delta.

So the question is just why Delta took so long - why they didn't use a helicopter - why they didn't use one of their boats (or have it prepped whilst they were driving), why they didn't... plan ahead.

All these sources saying 'it's a shame we couldn't get police there quicker but our chopper was unavailable' are conflating this.

Unless of course DELTA just have a special office next to the police broom cupboard and maybe twice a year get to practice in the 'real' army helicopter instead of taking it in turns to ride in the police one when the photographer is off sick.

Obviously didn't have Mac on point. Standdown order? 911 methodology morphs
'crost cultures. Didn't realize Norway had a NATO/Gladio unit.


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