Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby slomo » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:29 pm

Ultimately people believe what they want to believe. I'm starting to think that this whole conversation, and all of the conversations at RI, are just exercises in futility.

A good example is the Disney thread - one that I refuse to further participate in. On the surface it would seem to ask the public to confront the reality that many of our cultural luminaries harbored dark secrets and did terrible things, but in reality it's just a way to reinforce already deeply held opinions that all gay men are pedophiles. That will be the ultimate outcome of the Penn State scandal - not that our leaders are depraved (that would be "Conspiracy Theory") but that we should not trust homosexuals.

I'm starting to think my time is better spent actually dealing with my career, making money, and insulating myself from the vast stupidity that is evident even in this forum. The last thing I want is to become the Scapegoat in the next mimetic crisis.
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby slomo » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:56 pm

I will add that I am starting to understand the mindset of the "elites" that are so heavily criticized at RI. There's no educating stupid, the best you can do is just insulate yourself from it and try to manage it from afar.
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby Plutonia » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:01 pm

slomo wrote: The last thing I want is to become the Scapegoat in the next mimetic crisis.

:lol:

But seriously, nobody does, and I think the we instinctively intuit the risk of not seeming to conform and that drives much of our herd-like behavior.

Here's a good analysis of scapegoating in an academic institution, if you are interested - it's a good primer on the conditions that predispose an outbreak:

Stephen Berman: Scapegoat
Kenneth Westhues,
...

Christian civilization, says Girard, thus includes an “obligatory compassion” that is honoured mainly in the breach, given how deep-seated in human nature is the impulse to scapegoat, what Girard calls the “persecutory unconscious.” [9: 126f] We raise conflicts to “a new level of cunning” with “procedures less comically evident,” pursue a “hunt for hunters of scapegoats,” and in this way authorize “new forms of cruelty.” Scapegoating survives “by becoming more subtle, by resorting to more and more complex casuistry in order to elude the self-criticism that follows scapegoaters like their shadow.” [9: 159]
...

Published in the collection on academic mobbing in December 2006 http://arts.uwaterloo.ca/~kwesthue/berman.htm


BTW, Girard proposes a remedy, which is to "turn the other cheek" - once the oppositional binary is engaged with, it escalates with each side becoming more entrenched (and more alike).
[the British] government always kept a kind of standing army of news writers who without any regard to truth, or to what should be like truth, invented & put into the papers whatever might serve the minister

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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby Simulist » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:06 pm

Hey, Slomo. One of the most devastating realizations I've ever had (and, given the fact that my journey has taken me from a conservative Christian, Republican upbringing to "here," wherever that really is, there have been a few...) is that most people -- conservative and liberal, religious and atheist -- really aren't too interested in the truth if it disturbs their comfort zone; what most people are after is a comfortable illusion that works for them.

We're all at different places though, and we never know who might just surprise us.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:20 pm

slomo wrote:Ultimately people believe what they want to believe. I'm starting to think that this whole conversation, and all of the conversations at RI, are just exercises in futility.


If so then that's equally true of conversations in real life, or so I find. You have to ask yourself what you enjoy and what seems constructive, if not in "real world" results, then in terms of stimulating and satisfying your mind. I feel the same way often, and sooner or later I will drop RI and Web (for me this is addiction) and take to my corner and finally write without taking constant Web input and engaging in dialogue here.

Then I shall return a lion. Or so I imagine.

A good example is the Disney thread - one that I refuse to further participate in. On the surface it would seem to ask the public to confront the reality that many of our cultural luminaries harbored dark secrets and did terrible things, but in reality it's just a way to reinforce already deeply held opinions that all gay men are pedophiles. That will be the ultimate outcome of the Penn State scandal - not that our leaders are depraved (that would be "Conspiracy Theory") but that we should not trust homosexuals.


I fear you're right.

I'm starting to think my time is better spent actually dealing with my career, making money, and insulating myself from the vast stupidity that is evident even in this forum.


Some of it, doubtless, but it's not an abolute dichotomy. I for one really like the perspective you bring, and also the expertise on modeling, statistics and science.

The last thing I want is to become the Scapegoat in the next mimetic crisis.


Are you sure? Just mentioning it brings it closer. Besides, people audition for the role of Jesus, some even pay to bear crosses as Jerusalem tourists. Theater is fun.

But seriously... time to cue all the cult members surrounding you, reaching out to give you gentle strokes, chanting, "don't go, stay with us, we'll love you, stay with our mission, become One with us in the Great Mind, don't go..." Because you are good and appreciated here.

.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby Sounder » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:29 pm

slomo I'm sorry to hear that.

It just occurred to me to tell a little self serving story that may none the less cheer you up and mitigate your current feeling of futility.

I was on a remodel job site with a half dozen semi-rough carpenters. Included in the bunch was a new guy that indicated within about ten minutes of the start of his descriptive banter, that he had an IQ of 174. One workmate looked toward me and laughed quite loudly causing the new guy to look puzzled. So I informed him that he had just said something quite stupid for a person with his IQ and that furthermore I now felt an obligation to show him just how stupid he really was. This had the salutary effect of making him a bit nervous and more quiet than his more normal way of being.

While we all went to lunch together, crowded into one vehicle, this fellow made a disparaging comment about gay people. To which my response was, excellent this will do, so xxxx do you think either society or the individuals concerned would be better off with gay folk finding the deepest connections they are able to find, or is society better off if these folk accept social strictures and deny themselves a deep connection with another person?

After this there was marked decrease in the bluster element from this fellow.
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby Project Willow » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:40 pm

slomo wrote:Ultimately people believe what they want to believe. I'm starting to think that this whole conversation, and all of the conversations at RI, are just exercises in futility.


We've already outlined quite well in numerous threads and posts the stubborn barriers that most of our outrage born hopes will be splintered upon. Something that seems possible to me however is that while groups of people maintain areas of selective blindness, these may shift over time.

The last thing I want is to become the Scapegoat in the next mimetic crisis.


I understand that. I wish I knew how to get my group out of almost untouchable status. It just seems to only get worse.
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby Project Willow » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:45 pm

JackRiddler wrote:I feel the same way often, and sooner or later I will drop it (for me this is addiction) and take to my corner and finally write without taking constant Web input and engaging in dialogue here.


Replace write with make art and it's the same for me. The doctor recently prohibited all of my other addictions.

:tear
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby Searcher08 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:16 pm

Sounder wrote:slomo I'm sorry to hear that.

It just occurred to me to tell a little self serving story that may none the less cheer you up and mitigate your current feeling of futility.

I was on a remodel job site with a half dozen semi-rough carpenters. Included in the bunch was a new guy that indicated within about ten minutes of the start of his descriptive banter, that he had an IQ of 174. One workmate looked toward me and laughed quite loudly causing the new guy to look puzzled. So I informed him that he had just said something quite stupid for a person with his IQ and that furthermore I now felt an obligation to show him just how stupid he really was. This had the salutary effect of making him a bit nervous and more quiet than his more normal way of being.

While we all went to lunch together, crowded into one vehicle, this fellow made a disparaging comment about gay people. To which my response was, excellent this will do, so xxxx do you think either society or the individuals concerned would be better off with gay folk finding the deepest connections they are able to find, or is society better off if these folk accept social strictures and deny themselves a deep connection with another person?

After this there was marked decrease in the bluster element from this fellow.


I think most of us here at R.I. have a 'Genuine Expert', a 'Pontificator' and an 'Exasperated Woody Allen' inside us.
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby hanshan » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:35 pm

...

Simulist wrote:Hey, Slomo. One of the most devastating realizations I've ever had (and, given the fact that my journey has taken me from a conservative Christian, Republican upbringing to "here," wherever that really is, there have been a few...) is that most people -- conservative and liberal, religious and atheist -- really aren't too interested in the truth if it disturbs their comfort zone; what most people are after is a comfortable illusion that works for them.

We're all at different places though, and we never know who might just surprise us.





edit:




...
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby slomo » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:44 pm

Thank you for the outpouring of support, all, but this really isn't a manipulative ploy to get ego strokes (or whatever it is that gets stroked in a virtual community space). It really is a moment of, perhaps, a negative epiphany. Today a confluence of different threads on RI (and maybe in general on the forums and blogs I read) bumped me into a state where I kind of just all of a sudden thought "What the fuck am I doing?"

I've spent a lot of time on RI for the last few weeks - more than I can afford - mostly because a few personal and professional matters have been discouraging. It seemed like a decent refuge for awhile. But, we have these conversations, and does anything change? Do we gain the courage, knowledge, or rhetorical style to educate our real life friends and family members? I don't think so, because most of our real-life loved ones are impenetrable to this kind of information, no matter how it is delivered. And they are probably happier and more effective because of it. People believe what they want to believe, what they can handle, what gets them through the day, and what supports whatever program they've already decided upon. Desire rules. Rationality does not. I recently told a friend that I should have studied mass communications, not epidemiology, because I'd have more influence in the world in the long run.

Not to pick on the Disney thread (well, yes, exactly to pick on it because of the thread's founder's inability to take responsibility for an obvious smear) what good is it to endlessly rehash the misdeeds of Walt Disney, long ago decapitated and fresh-frozen in some cryogenic vault? What are the likely outcomes of such a conversation? That all of a sudden people start realizing that a significant portion of our culture has been founded by psychopaths? If so, what next - what will be done to change that? If not, then what's the point perseverating over it, except to reinforce the moral equivalence gay = pedophile?

I personally think that any kind of mass awakening from rehashing old history (Walt Disney, JFK, 911, whatever) is unlikely, because there is plenty of evidence of cultural dysfunction just by examining our current circumstances, and still very few people seem to question what is obviously staring them in the face. For example, all over again, just like in 2008, people are Believing in Hope and Change, just (as Bruce Dazzling put it), like battered wives. Meanwhile, even here at RI, the same kind of sleazy manipulation occurs, only on a smaller scale: pretend to have a rational conversation about X, but braid it with semiotic poison Y and when you're called out, dissemble and deflect as much as possible.

To be honest with you, there is a lot I like about my job, or at least a lot I don't mind. Notably, I like almost of my colleagues who are lateral to me, as well as my mentors, some of whom are obviously gaming the system and throwing out subtle hints how I should do the same. Of the remaining ones who I don't necessarily like personally - they turn out to be useful to me anyhow. And narcissistic scientific luminaries and the administrators who facilitate their shenanigans? I totally understand how they got to be the way they are. There's only so much stupid you can take before you tell yourself, "yeah I know this game is rigged, it's a steaming pile of shit, but if I cut some corners I can get X grant and Y contract and make enough money to wall myself off from all of the BS, and then I don't have to deal with Stupid anymore except to manage it".

If the sheep are so easily manipulated, then fuck 'em. It's not my problem. If another mimetic crisis is just around the corner, the place you don't want to be is where the contestants happen to be looking for someone to play the role of Scapegoat. Let somebody else play that role.
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby vanlose kid » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:50 pm

slomo wrote:...

If the sheep are so easily manipulated, then fuck 'em. It's not my problem...


bad as things are, and they are bad, do you really mean that?

*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby slomo » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:58 pm

^^^^ Not sure yet.
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:00 am

^ ^

sleep on it okay?

take care.

*
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:08 am

slomo wrote:Thank you for the outpouring of support, all, but this really isn't a manipulative ploy to get ego strokes (or whatever it is that gets stroked in a virtual community space)...


It's not an ego stroke when I say, if writing semi-brilliant posts like that for immediate delivery to interlocutors who will respond quickly and sometimes intelligently doesn't give you pleasure, then don't do it. It gives me pleasure, as writer and reader, and at those times when it doesn't, I stop. You do this for its own rewards, without expecting it to change the world, or you don't do it. If the circumstance that world-changing ain't gonna happen (or be aided) through engagement on RI is really a disappointment to you, then don't do it. I direct you to my signature line. It's all good, as the new agey people say. Which also means, it's all bad. Do this because you like it, there is no other reason.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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