Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

[minime]

And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good... need we ask anyone to tell us these things?

[MacCruiskeen]

Thinking as I do that the Creator of this world is a very cruel being, and being a worshipper of Christ, I cannot help saying: ''the Son, O how unlike the Father!'' First God Almighty comes with a thump on the head. Then Jesus Christ comes with a balm to heal it.

William Blake

[General Patton]

I'm a fan of Jesus was real but an imposter got crucified and the real one fled to Japan theory

[MacCruiskeen]

I'm a fan of Jesus was real but an imposter got crucified and the real one fled to Japan theory

Yes, I like that one too. Wherever he went his spirit is still not dead. so at least in that sense he really was is immortal.

I voted for option 1, by the way, mainly because I like the idea of annoying Richard Dawkins, Smug Sam Harris, and the ghost of Christopher Hitchens. The New Atheist Holy War on the poor and the brown has never been a crusade I could get behind. On the contrary, I wanted to get it behind me, like Satan. So I am with Winstanley, Blake and MLK..

Bears and chimpanzees have been observed scaling low hills just to sit quietly and watch the sunset. What are called the spiritual and the aesthetic senses are even older than humankind, and they are surely closely related. They are also suprarational pathways into reality, whatever that is exactly. No wonder the powers that rule this nether world are scornful of both art and spirit, and fearful of both.

Therefore, consider the lilies.

[minime]

I'm a fan of Jesus was real but an imposter got crucified and the real one fled to Japan theory

Yes, I like that one too. Wherever he went his spirit is still not dead. so at least in that sense he really was is immortal.

I voted for option 1, by the way, mainly because I like the idea of annoying Richard Dawkins, Smug Sam Harris, and the ghost of Christopher Hitchens. The New Atheist Holy War on the poor and the brown has never been a crusade I could get behind. On the contrary, I wanted to get it behind me, like Satan. So I am with Winstanley, Blake and MLK..

Bears and chimpanzees have been observed scaling low hills just to sit quietly and watch the sunset. What are called the spiritual and the aesthetic senses are even older than humankind, and they are surely closely related. They are also suprarational pathways into reality, whatever that is exactly. No wonder the powers that rule this nether world are scornful of both art and spirit, and fearful of both.

Therefore, consider the lilies.

[vince]

I'm a fan of Jesus was real but an imposter got crucified and the real one fled to Japan theory

This sentence reminds me of that short novel by Gore Vidal, "Live From Golgotha"!
A funny little book about 'time-traveling' to save The Gospel According To Saint Timmothy!

[Belligerent Savant]

I'm a fan of Jesus was real but an imposter got crucified and the real one fled to Japan theory

Yes, I like that one too. Wherever he went his spirit is still not dead. so at least in that sense he really was is immortal.

I voted for option 1, by the way, mainly because I like the idea of annoying Richard Dawkins, Smug Sam Harris, and the ghost of Christopher Hitchens. The New Atheist Holy War on the poor and the brown has never been a crusade I could get behind. On the contrary, I wanted to get it behind me, like Satan. So I am with Winstanley, Blake and MLK..

Bears and chimpanzees have been observed scaling low hills just to sit quietly and watch the sunset. What are called the spiritual and the aesthetic senses are even older than humankind, and they are surely closely related. They are also suprarational pathways into reality, whatever that is exactly. No wonder the powers that rule this nether world are scornful of both art and spirit, and fearful of both.

Therefore, consider the lilies.

Seconded.

Haven't fully vetted the below link yet (though the 'about' page reads in part: " This site is a freely available archive of electronic texts about religion, mythology, legends and folklore, and occult and esoteric topics. Texts are presented in English translation and, where possible, in the original language.
This site has no particular agenda other than promoting religious tolerance and scholarship. Views expressed at this site are solely those of specific authors, and are not endorsed by sacred-texts. Sacred-texts is not sponsored by any religious group or organization.").

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta44.htm


I pass along a few excerpts for consideration/scrutiny as it touches on similar concepts/theories raised here (and on other related threads):

Mystic Christianity

THE true story of the life of Jesus of Nazareth has never been unfolded to the world, either in the accepted Gospels or in the Apocrypha, although a few stray hints may be found in some of the commentaries written by the ante-Nicene Fathers. The facts concerning His identity and mission are among the priceless mysteries preserved to this day in the secret vaults beneath the "Houses of the Brethren." To a few of the Knights Templars, who were initiated into the arcana of the Druses, Nazarenes, Essenes, Johannites, and other sects still inhabiting the remote and inaccessible fastnesses of the Holy Land, part of the strange story was told. The knowledge of the Templars concerning the early history of Christianity was undoubtedly one of the main reasons for their persecution and final annihilation. The discrepancies in the writings of the early Church Fathers not only are irreconcilable, but demonstrate beyond question that even during the first five centuries after Christ these learned men had for the basis of their writings little more substantial than folklore and hearsay. To the easy believer everything is possible and there are no problems. The unemotional person in search of facts, however, is confronted by a host of problems with uncertain factors, of which the following are typical:

According to popular conception, Jesus was crucified during the thirty-third year of His life and in the third year of His ministry following His baptism. About A.D. 180, St. Irenæus, Bishop of Lyons, one of the most eminent of the ante-Nicene theologians, wrote Against Heresies, an attack on the doctrines of the Gnostics. In this work Irenæus declared upon the authority of the Apostles themselves that Jesus lived to old age. To quote: "They, however, that they may establish their false opinion regarding that which is written, 'to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,' maintain that He preached for one year only, and then suffered in the twelfth month. [In speaking thus], they are forgetful of their own disadvantage, destroying His whole work, and robbing Him of that age which is both more necessary and more honourable than any other; that more advanced age, I mean, during which also as a teacher He excelled all others. For how could He have had His disciples, if He did not teach? And how could He have taught, unless He had reached the age of a Master? For when He came to be baptised, He had not yet completed His thirtieth year, but was beginning to be about thirty years of age (for thus Luke, who has mentioned His years, has expressed it: 'Now Jesus was, as it were, beginning to be thirty years old,' when He came to receive baptism); and, (according to these men,) He preached only one year reckoning from His baptism. On completing His thirtieth year He suffered, being in fact still a young man, and who had by no means attained to advanced age. Now, that the first stage of early life embraces thirty years, and that this extends onward to the fortieth year, every one will admit; but from the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which Our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, (affirming) that John conveyed to them that information. And he remained among them up to the time of Trajan. Some of them, moreover, saw not only John, but the other apostles also, and heard the very same account from them, and bear testimony as to the'(validity of) the statement. Whom then should we rather believe? Whether such men as these, or Ptolemæus, who never saw the apostles, and who never even in his dreams attained to the slightest trace of an apostle?"

Commenting on the foregoing passage, Godfrey Higgins remarks that it has fortunately escaped the hands of those destroyers who have attempted to render the Gospel narratives consistent by deleting all such statements. He also notes that the doctrine of the crucifixion was a vexata questio among Christians even during the second century. "The evidence of Irenæus," he says, "cannot be touched. On every principle of sound criticism, and of the doctrine of probabilities, it is unimpeachable."

It should further be noted that Irenæus prepared this statement to contradict another apparently current in his time to the effect that the ministry of Jesus lasted but one year. Of all the early Fathers, Irenæus, writing within eighty years after the death of St. John the Evangelist, should have had reasonably accurate information. If the disciples themselves related that Jesus lived to advanced age in the body, why has the mysterious number 33 been arbitrarily chosen to symbolize the duration of His life? Were the incidents in the life of Jesus purposely altered so that His actions would fit more closely into the pattern established by the numerous Savior-Gods who preceded Him? That these analogies were recognized and used as a leverage in converting the Greeks and Romans is evident from a perusal of the writings of Justin Martyr, another second-century authority. In his Apology, Justin addresses the pagans thus:

"And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, Our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. * * * And if we assert that the Word of God was born of God in a peculiar manner, different from ordinary generation, let this, as said above, be no extraordinary thing to you, who say that Mercury is the angelic word of God. But if any one objects that He was crucified, in this also He is on a par with those reputed sons of Jupiter of yours, who suffered as we have now enumerated."

From this it is evident that the first missionaries of the Christian Church were far more willing to admit the similarities between their faith and the faiths of the pagans than were their successors in later centuries.

In an effort to solve some of the problems arising from any attempt to chronicle accurately the life of Jesus, it has been suggested that there may have lived in Syria at that time two or more religious teachers bearing the name Jesus, Jehoshua or Joshua, and that the lives of these men may have been confused in the Gospel stories. In his Secret Sects of Syria and the Lebanon, Bernard H. Springett, a Masonic author, quotes from an early book, the name of which he was not at liberty to disclose because of its connection with the ritual of a sect. The last part of his quotation is germane to the subject at hand:

"But Jehovah prospered the seed of the Essenians, in holiness and love, for many generations. Then came the chief of the angels, according to the commandment of GOD, to raise up an heir to the Voice of Jehovah. And, in four generations more, an heir was born, and named Joshua, and he was the child of Joseph and Mara, devout worshippers of Jehovah, who stood aloof from all other people save the Essenians. And this Joshua, in Nazareth, reestablished Jehovah, and restored many of the lost rites and ceremonies. In the thirty-sixth year of his age he was stoned to death in Jerusalem

Within the last century several books have been published to supplement the meager descriptions in the Gospels of Jesus and His ministry. In some instances these narratives claim to be founded upon early manuscripts recently discovered; in others, upon direct spiritual revelation. Some of these writings are highly plausible, while others are incredible. There are persistent rumors that Jesus visited and studied in both Greece and India, and that a coin struck in His honor in India during the first century has been discovered. Early Christian records are known to exist in Tibet, and the monks of a Buddhist monastery in Ceylon still preserve a record which indicates that Jesus sojourned with them and became conversant with their philosophy.

Although early Christianity shows every evidence of Oriental influence, this is a subject the modern church declines to discuss. If it is ever established beyond question that Jesus was an initiate of the pagan Greek or Asiatic Mysteries, the effect upon the more conservative members of the Christian faith is likely to be cataclysmic. If Jesus was God incarnate, as the solemn councils of the church discovered, why is He referred to in the New Testament as "called of God an high prim after the order of Melchizedek"? The words "after the order" make Jesus one of a line or order of which there must have been others of equal or even superior dignity. If the "Melchizedeks" were the divine or priestly rulers of the nations of the earth before the inauguration of the system of temporal rulers, then the statements attributed to St. Paul would indicate that Jesus either was one of these "philosophic elect" or was attempting to reestablish their system of government. It will be remembered that Melchizedek also performed the same ceremony of the drinking of wine and the breaking of bread as did Jesus at the Last Supper.

George Faber declares the original name of Jesus was Jescua Hammassiah. Godfrey Higgins has discovered two references, one in the Midrashjoholeth and the other in the Abodazara (early Jewish commentaries on the Scriptures), to the effect that the surname of Joseph's family was Panther, for in both of these works it is stated that a man was healed "in the name of Jesus ben Panther." The name Panther establishes a direct connection between Jesus and Bacchus--who was nursed by panthers and is sometimes depicted riding either on one of these animals or in a chariot drawn by them. The skin of the panther was also sacred in certain of the Egyptian initiatory ceremonials. The monogram IHS, now interpreted to mean Iesus Hominum Salvator (Jesus Savior of Men), is another direct link between the Christian and the Bacchic rites. IHS is derived from the Greek ΥΗΣ, which, as its numerical value (608) signifies, is emblematic of the sun and constituted the sacred and concealed name of Bacchus. (See The Celtic Druids by Godfrey Higgins.) The question arises, Was early Roman Christianity confused with the worship of Bacchus because of the numerous parallelisms in the two faiths? If the affirmative can be proved, many hitherto incomprehensible enigmas of the New Testament will be solved.

It is by no means improbable that Jesus Himself originally propounded as allegories the cosmic activities which were later confused with His own life. That the Χριστός, Christos, represents the solar power reverenced by every nation of antiquity cannot be controverted. If Jesus revealed the nature and purpose of this solar power under the name and personality of Christos, thereby giving to this abstract power the attributes of a god-man, He but followed a precedent set by all previous World-Teachers. This god-man, thus endowed with all the qualities of Deity, signifies the latent divinity in every man. Mortal man achieves deification only through at-one-ment with this divine Self. Union with the immortal Self constitutes immortality, and he who finds his true Self is therefore "saved." This Christos, or divine man in man, is man's real hope of salvation--the living Mediator between abstract Deity and mortal humankind. As Atys, Adonis, Bacchus, and Orpheus in all likelihood were originally illumined men who later were confused with the symbolic personages whom they created as personifications of this divine power, so Jesus has been confused with the Christos, or god-man, whose wonders He preached. Since the Christos was the god-man imprisoned in every creature, it was the first duty of the initiate to liberate, or "resurrect, " this Eternal One within himself. He who attained reunion with his Christos was consequently termed a Christian, or Christened, man.

One of the most profound doctrines of the pagan philosophers concerned the Universal Savior-God who lifted the souls of regenerated men to heaven through His own nature. This concept was unquestionably the inspiration for the words attributed to Jesus: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." In an effort to make a single person out of Jesus and His Christos, Christian writers have patched together a doctrine which must be resolved back into its original constituents if the true meaning of Christianity is to be rediscovered. In the Gospel narratives the Christos represents the perfect man who, having passed through the various stages of the "World Mystery" symbolized by the thirty-three years, ascends to the heaven sphere where he is reunited with his Eternal Father. The story of Jesus as now preserved is--like the Masonic story of Hiram Abiff--part of a secret initiatory ritualism belonging to the early Christian and pagan Mysteries.

During the centuries just prior to the Christian Era, the secrets of the pagan Mysteries had gradually fallen into the hands of the profane. To the student of comparative religion it is evident that these secrets, gathered by a small group of faithful philosophers and mystics, were reclothed in new symbolical garments and thus preserved for several centuries under the name of Mystic Christianity. It is generally supposed that the Essenes were the custodians of this knowledge and also the initiators and educators of Jesus. If so, Jesus was undoubtedly initiated in the same temple of Melchizedek where Pythagoras had studied six centuries before.

...

Jesus was reared and educated by the Essenes and later initiated into the most profound of their Mysteries. Like all great initiates, He must travel in an easterly direction, and the silent years of His life no doubt were spent in familiarizing Himself with that secret teaching later to be communicated by Him to the world. Having consummated the ascetic practices of His order, He attained to the Christening. Having thus reunited Himself with His own spiritual source, He then went forth in the name of the One who has been crucified since before the worlds were and, gathering about Him disciples and apostles, He instructed them in that secret teaching which had been lost--in part, at least--from the doctrines of Israel. His fate is unknown, but in all probability He suffered that persecution which is the lot of those who seek to reconstruct the ethical, philosophical, or religious systems of their day.

To the multitudes Jesus spoke in parables; to His disciples He also spoke in parables, though of a more exalted and philosophic nature. Voltaire said that Plato should have been canonized by the Christian Church, for, being the first propounder of the Christos mystery, he contributed more to its fundamental doctrines than any other single individual. Jesus disclosed to His disciples that the lower world is under the control of a great spiritual being which had fashioned it according to the will of the Eternal Father. The mind of this great angel was both the mind of the world and also the worldly mind. So that men should not die of worldliness the Eternal Father sent unto creation the eldest and most exalted of His powers--the Divine Mind. This Divine Mind offered Itself as a living sacrifice and was broken up and eaten by the world. Having given Its spirit and Its body at a secret and sacred supper to the twelve manners of rational creatures, this Divine Mind became a part of every living thing. Man was thereby enabled to use this power as a bridge across which he might pass and attain immortality. He who lifted up his soul to this Divine Mind and served It was righteous and, having attained righteousness, liberated this Divine Mind, which thereupon returned again in glory to Its own divine source. And because He had brought to them this knowledge, the disciples said one to another: "Lo, He is Himself this Mind personified!"

...The prevalent idea that the reverence for the cross is limited to the Christian world is disproved by even the most superficial investigation of its place in religious symbolism. The early Christians used every means possible to conceal the pagan origin of their symbols, doctrines, and rituals. They either destroyed the sacred books of other peoples among whom they settled, or made them inaccessible to students of comparative philosophy, apparently believing that in this way they could stamp out all record of the pre-Christian origin of their doctrines. In some cases the writings of various ancient authors were tampered with, passages of a compromising nature being removed or foreign material interpolated. The supposedly spurious passage in Josephus concerning Jesus is an example adduced to illustrate this proclivity.

THE LOST LIBRARIES OF ALEXANDRIA

Prior to the Christian Era seven hundred thousand of the most valuable books, written upon parchment, papyrus, vellum, and wax, and also tablets of stone, terra cotta, and wood, were gathered from all parts of the ancient world and housed in Alexandria, in buildings specially prepared for the purpose. This magnificent repository of knowledge was destroyed by a series of three fires. The parts that escaped the conflagration lighted by Cæsar to destroy the fleet in the harbor were destroyed about A.D. 389 by the Christians in obedience to the edict of Theodosius, who had ordered the destruction of the Serapeum, a building sacred to Serapis in which the volumes were kept. This conflagration is supposed to have destroyed the library that Marcus Antonius had presented to Cleopatra to compensate in part for that burned in the fire of the year 51.

Concerning this, H. P. Blavatsky, in Isis Unveiled, has written: "They [the Rabbis of Palestine and the wise men] say that not all the rolls and manuscripts, reported in history to have been burned by Cæsar, by the Christian mob, in 389, and by the Arab General Amru, perished as it is commonly believed; and the story they tell is the following: At the time of the contest for the throne, in 51 B. C., between Cleopatra and her brother Dionysius Ptolemy, the Bruckion, which contained over seven hundred thousand rolls all bound in wood and fire-proof parchment, was undergoing repairs and a great portion of the original manuscripts, considered among the most precious, and which were not duplicated, were stored away in the house of one of the librarians. * * *Several hours passed between the burning of the fleet, set on fire by Cæsar's order, and the moment when the first buildings situated near the harbor caught fire in their turn; and * * * the librarians, aided by several hundred slaves attached to the museum, succeeded in saving the most precious of the rolls." In all probability, the books which were saved lie buried either in Egypt or in India, and until they are discovered the modern world must remain in ignorance concerning many great philosophical and mystical truths. The ancient world more clearly understood these missing links--the continuity of the pagan Mysteries in Christianity.

[Novem5er]

So what do people think about the Nativity? I can't help but think it's entirely symbolic and mythical. I made this image last year using a European scientific site.



This is what the sky will look like from Rome, looking towards the southeast on Christmas Eve and Christmas morning. What we see are the three stars of Orion's Belt, often referred to by old sailors as the Three Kings (I've read), pointing to the brightest star in the sky, Sirius. They do this every night, of course, but what makes Christmas rather special is that Sirius rises within a few degrees of where the sun will rise on Christmas morning. It's not a perfect alignment, but to the naked eye it's pretty darn close and a few days earlier and a few days later, the night sky is farther away from this sweet spot.

So, we really are seeing the Nativity in the night sky. Three wise men lead us to a bright star (the brightest), which leads us to the birth of the Sun on Christmas Day. Again, this only lines up (pretty close) at Christmas.

Of course, none of this even touches the idea of the Sun dying on the Southern Cross during the Winter Solstice and being reborn on Christmas three (or four) days later. That kind of mixes up the Easter traditions with Christmas, but it's still rather interesting.

What do you all think?

[Freitag]

So what do people think about the Nativity? I can't help but think it's entirely symbolic and mythical.

I dunno, there's a lot of UFO-type stuff surrounding the nativity. The "star" that leads the wise men to baby Jesus. The "angel" that tells Mary she's a pregnant virgin. It's gotta be aliens.

[OP ED]

I try to minimize the amount of Jesus intake in my metaphysical diet.

Spiritual obesity and all.

I haven't provided my progeny with any Christian exposure. I assume the propaganda is inevitable, so I will leave it to the experts.

A few days ago, thee Fives yr olde spawning of the OP ED was discovered playing with a Nativity. I only keep it because my dad carved it hisself.

Having removed it from the box, she had arrangements that were roughly traditional. Kings together. Animals together. Christ child center stage on a little wood.manger.

I asked what she was doing. Playing.

Playing what?

"Well," she said, "this one has died and the rest have come to his funeral. Even the cow and sheep miss him."

Jesus, you mean?

"Who?"

That one.

"Yes, he died. "

[For a moment, OP ED considering ramifications of child choosing Jesus as the dead one, deep thoughts]

"He was the only one laying down, so he had to be the one who died. "

[Joe Hillshoist]

So what do people think about the Nativity? I can't help but think it's entirely symbolic and mythical. I made this image last year using a European scientific site.



This is what the sky will look like from Rome, looking towards the southeast on Christmas Eve and Christmas morning. What we see are the three stars of Orion's Belt, often referred to by old sailors as the Three Kings (I've read), pointing to the brightest star in the sky, Sirius. They do this every night, of course, but what makes Christmas rather special is that Sirius rises within a few degrees of where the sun will rise on Christmas morning. It's not a perfect alignment, but to the naked eye it's pretty darn close and a few days earlier and a few days later, the night sky is farther away from this sweet spot.

So, we really are seeing the Nativity in the night sky. Three wise men lead us to a bright star (the brightest), which leads us to the birth of the Sun on Christmas Day. Again, this only lines up (pretty close) at Christmas.

Of course, none of this even touches the idea of the Sun dying on the Southern Cross during the Winter Solstice and being reborn on Christmas three (or four) days later. That kind of mixes up the Easter traditions with Christmas, but it's still rather interesting.

What do you all think?

Can you see the Southern Cross from Rome?

[Joe Hillshoist]

Or for that matter Bethlehem or Jerusalem? I don't you can cos they are too far north.

[Luther Blissett]

Imagine writing a story today about your really cool buddy who you swear was real, got murdered in the seventies, and getting three of your friends to copy it (poorly). Then get a blogger to cover it. Then imagine that becomes one of the most important stories ever written.

[divideandconquer]

So what do people think about the Nativity? I can't help but think it's entirely symbolic and mythical. I made this image last year using a European scientific site.



This is what the sky will look like from Rome, looking towards the southeast on Christmas Eve and Christmas morning. What we see are the three stars of Orion's Belt, often referred to by old sailors as the Three Kings (I've read), pointing to the brightest star in the sky, Sirius. They do this every night, of course, but what makes Christmas rather special is that Sirius rises within a few degrees of where the sun will rise on Christmas morning. It's not a perfect alignment, but to the naked eye it's pretty darn close and a few days earlier and a few days later, the night sky is farther away from this sweet spot.

So, we really are seeing the Nativity in the night sky. Three wise men lead us to a bright star (the brightest), which leads us to the birth of the Sun on Christmas Day. Again, this only lines up (pretty close) at Christmas.

Of course, none of this even touches the idea of the Sun dying on the Southern Cross during the Winter Solstice and being reborn on Christmas three (or four) days later. That kind of mixes up the Easter traditions with Christmas, but it's still rather interesting.

What do you all think?

Dr. Ernest L. Martin wrote a book, in 1981--20 years before 9/11-- "The Birth of Christ Recalculated". He based it on the celestial charts for that era and concluded the date of Christ's birth, based on the famous Star of Bethlehem, is September 11, 3 B.C.. between 6:15 pm and 7:49 pm EST. Since then, Dr. Martin's findings have been accepted by many scholars,theologians, historians, and astronomers who also say that the Star of Bethlehem, signifying the birth of Jesus Christ, can be calculated to within a few hours of September 11, 3 B.C., Historian Dr. Ernest L. Martin's first article on the subject appeared in 1976. In 1991, The book was re-released as "The Star that Astonished the World."

[Luther Blissett]

So did Matthew, like, interview Joseph and Mary 40 years after their kid died, or did he just hold onto the tapes for that long, man?