Giffords shooting

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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby nathan28 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:59 pm

It looks like Loughner had a long-standing but largely inexplicable beef against Giffords. LPT already posted a link, but I wanted to put some quotes in.

Since Loughner's friend poses a theory, I'll post that immediately below. Put simply, Tierney thinks Loughner thought he was a sort of ubermensch-type and was prone to fucking with people and making scenes. The shooting was a sort of ADD meets 'art' provocation meets Nietzschean sentiments. The other mat'ls I've put here show that Loughner has a long-standing and nonsensical grudge against Giffords and that Loughner got really fucking weird, at least by his friends' accounts, about a year before the shootings.

Since hearing of the rampage, Tierney has been trying to figure out why Loughner did what he allegedly did. "More chaos, maybe," he says. "I think the reason he did it was mainly to just promote chaos. He wanted the media to freak out about this whole thing. He wanted exactly what's happening. He wants all of that." Tierney thinks that Loughner's mindset was like the Joker in the most recent Batman movie: "He fucks things up to fuck shit up, there's no rhyme or reason, he wants to watch the world burn. He probably wanted to take everyone out of their monotonous lives: 'Another Saturday, going to go get groceries'—to take people out of these norms that he thought society had trapped us in."


http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message

Tierney, who's also 22, recalls Loughner complaining about a Giffords event he attended during that period. He's unsure whether it was the same one mentioned in the charges—Loughner "might have gone to some other rallies," he says—but Tierney notes it was a significant moment for Loughner: "He told me that she opened up the floor for questions and he asked a question. The question was, 'What is government if words have no meaning?'"

Giffords' answer, whatever it was, didn't satisfy Loughner. "He said, 'Can you believe it, they wouldn't answer my question,' and I told him, 'Dude, no one's going to answer that,'" Tierney recalls. "Ever since that, he thought she was fake, he had something against her."

Tierney says he has "no clue" why Loughner might have "shot all those other people." But, he notes, "when I heard Gabrielle Giffords has been shot, I was like 'Oh my God...' For some reason I felt like I knew...I felt like if anyone was going to shoot her, it would be Jared."

Loughner would occasionally mention Giffords, according to Tierney: "It wasn't a day-in, day-out thing, but maybe once in a while, if Giffords did something that was ridiculous or passed some stupid law or did something stupid, he related that to people. But the thing I remember most is just that question. I don't remember him stalking her or anything." Tierney notes that Loughner did not display any specific political or ideological bent: "It wasn't like he was in a certain party or went to rallies...It's not like he'd go on political rants." But Loughner did, according to Tierney, believe that government is "fucking us over." He never heard Loughner vent about the perils of "currency," as Loughner did on one YouTube video he created.

Tierney, who first met Loughner in middle school, recalls that Loughner started to act strange around his junior or senior year of high school. Before that, Loughner was just a "normal kid," says Tierney. When the two friends started hanging out in sophomore year of high school, "there was nothing really dark about Jared," Tierney says.



He also describes Loughner as being obsessed with "lucid dreaming"—that is, the idea that conscious dreams are an alternative reality that a person can inhabit and control—and says Loughner became "more interested in this world than our reality." Tierney adds, "I saw his dream journal once. That's the golden piece of evidence. You want to know what goes on in Jared Loughner's mind, there's a dream journal that will tell you everything."

...In October 2008, Tierney was living in Phoenix, and Loughner came to visit. They went to see a Mars Volta concert with friends, and Tierney was surprised when Loughner said he had quit partying "completely." Loughner, according to Tierney, said, "I'm going to lead a more healthy lifestyle, not smoke cigarettes or pot anymore, and I'm going to start working out." Tierney was happy for his friend: "I said, 'Dude, that's awesome.' And the next time I saw him he was 10 pounds lighter." Tierney never saw Loughner smoke marijuana again, and he was surprised at media reports that Loughner had been rejected from the military in 2009 for failing a drug test: "He was clean, clean. I saw him after that continuously. He would not do it."

After Loughner apparently gave up drugs and booze, "his theories got worse," Tierney says. "After he quit, he was just off the wall." And Loughner started to drift away from his group of friends about a year ago. By early 2010, dreaming had become Loughner's "waking life, his reality," Tierney says. "He sort of drifted off, didn't really care about hanging out with friends. He'd be sleeping a lot." Loughner's alternate reality was attractive, Tierney says. "He figured out he could fly." Loughner, according to Tierney, told his friends, "I'm so into it because I can create things and fly. I'm everything I'm not in this world."
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby norton ash » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:02 pm

I have a friend who's reporting that wealthy conservative relatives in AZ are putting it all down to drugs and crazy hippie ideas.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby nathan28 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:09 pm

Nordic wrote:Have you seen pictures of that cab driver?


Spoiler:HMWs, thou art avenged (again)?

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norton ash wrote:
his father chased him into the desert


Whoa, that's so biblical.

If Erickson and Palin can pull a vomitable portion of God into this disaster (Obama will too, no doubt) ... why not? The compulsory crap about American Jesus is extra-offensive right now, and Palin's 'blood libel' is right off the charts.


This is more like Genesis and Judges after a couple crack-laced shroomsticks than the Gospels, but sure. I don't know why there isn't a meth-fueled TV evangelist going on about this ATM, and why the Republic of Gideon Party (RGP-USA) or whatever hasn't seized on this. It certainly makes more sense in that light.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:20 pm

Good timeline update from Huff Post:



Jared Loughner's Father Pursued Son Before Shooting

AMANDA LEE MYERS and JUSTIN PRITCHARD 01/12/11 02:17 PM

TUCSON, Ariz. — In the hours before the assassination attempt against Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, Jared Loughner went to Walmart, was pulled over for running a red light and ran from his father after an angry confrontation.

Investigators are piecing together the timeline of Loughner's frenzied morning before the attack that killed six.

"What he did and the morning before the shooting, we're just trying to find all that out," said sheriff's Capt. Chris Nanos.

Nanos wouldn't say what Loughner bought during two trips to Walmart.

After the shopping trips, Loughner ran a red light but was let off with a warning, the Arizona Game and Fish Department said. The officer took Loughner's driver's license and vehicle registration information at 7:30 a.m. but found no outstanding warrants and didn't search the car, a late 1960s dark gray Chevy Nova.

About 8 a.m., Randy Loughner saw his son walk to one of the family's vehicles and take a black bag out of the trunk.

"The father went out and said, 'What's that?' and he mumbled something and took off running," said Sheriff Clarence Dupnik.

Randy Loughner got in his truck and chased his son, but Jared ran into the desert.

At 10:11 a.m., police say Jared Loughner showed up at a Tucson grocery store in a taxi and shot 19 people, killing a federal judge and a 9-year-old girl, among others and wounding more than a dozen.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/1 ... 07857.html


So where did Jared go in the two hours prior to showing up at Safeway? It didn't take that long for the taxi to pick him up and take him to his destination:

“Since the volume wasn’t that heavy on Saturday, he was picked up moments after the call was placed,” Mr. Acosta said. “And a few minutes later he was at the Safeway.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/us/11 ... ml?_r=1&hp


Where's the black bag? The immediate assumption is that is what was used to transport the gun and ammo. So why was it not reported either from the taxi driver's account or as having been recovered as evidence from Safeway?
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby nathan28 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:20 pm

norton ash wrote:I have a friend who's reporting that wealthy conservative relatives in AZ are putting it all down to drugs and crazy hippie ideas.


Crazy hippie ideas like Ayn Rand? Dude was clean, apparently. The only drug he was on was Atlas Shrugged.

Seriously, it's hard not to see what happened as a mixture of some schizophrenic thought, amplified by a lot of consciousness-altering (dreaming, occult) and a well-established, and most important of all, Nietschean ethic that Loughner would have learned from the Ayn Rand on his reading list and the Randiodisms floating around his culture. Because most schizophrenics never kill anybody, and most people who engage in lucid dreaming never kill anybody, like TigerBeatdown says, and as much as I hate to admit it, most people who buy Jordan Maxwell and chemtrails 100% also cause little real harm in this world.

So the only thing that remains standing are the ethics and aesthetics that would underwrite violence of the "shooting into a crowd" sort. It seems possible that Loughner chose Giffords's meeting largely because he didn't like her and more importantly because she'd draw attention to the act. Because Loughner's politics are largely incoherent. So this was partly a weighed act.

And Loughner felt himself being superior and above it all. So really, he's crazy, but more than that, he's engaged with a totally non-crazy set of ideas and sentiments.

A set of ideas and sentiments, that is, of exactly the sort found in Ayn Rand. Time to cry foul, conservowhiners.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby beeline » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:24 pm

Where's the black bag? The immediate assumption is that is what was used to transport the gun and ammo. So why was it not reported either from the taxi driver's account or as having been recovered as evidence from Safeway?


Crap, next you'll be asking where the black boxes from Flights 11, 77, 93, and 175 are.

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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby happenstance » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:38 pm

Palin video response with the "blood libel" quote still up here:

http://vimeo.com/18698532
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby DoYouEverWonder » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:42 pm

happenstance wrote:Palin video response with the "blood libel" quote still up here:

http://vimeo.com/18698532

Has she finally jumped the shark?

Will this woman ever just shut up and just go back to whatever hellhole she crawled out of?
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby Nordic » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:43 pm

http://www.theonion.com/articles/shooti ... y-a,18809/

Shooting Suspect Released After Not Breaking Any Arizona Laws

TUCSON, AZ—Jared Lee Loughner was released from custody this afternoon when it was determined that the suspect—accused of a shooting spree that left six dead and 14 injured, including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords—had not technically broken any Arizona state laws. "While Loughner is clearly a deranged madman who, with this heinous, tragic act, has proved to be a danger to himself and others, he has not explicitly violated any statutes currently on the books in Arizona," Pima County Attorney Barbara LaWall said of the man whom witnesses saw murdering a 9-year-old girl and a federal judge. "We can only hope that if he acts out again, another Arizona citizen will be legally carrying a concealed firearm and be able to stop him." LaWall told reporters that the only way her state would have any legal recourse in the brutal slayings would be if Loughner were Mexican.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby nathan28 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:45 pm

DoYouEverWonder wrote:
happenstance wrote:Palin video response with the "blood libel" quote still up here:

http://vimeo.com/18698532

Has she finally jumped the shark?

Will this woman ever just shut up and just go back to whatever hellhole she crawled out of?


She actually said that? I thought it was a joke.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby justdrew » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:59 pm

By 1964 there were 1.5 million mobile phone users in the US
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby Simulist » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:01 pm

DoYouEverWonder wrote:
happenstance wrote:Palin video response with the "blood libel" quote still up here:

http://vimeo.com/18698532

Has she finally jumped the shark?

Will this woman ever just shut up and just go back to whatever hellhole she crawled out of?

This is a woman who thinks Afghanistan is "our neighboring country."

Sarah Palin could easily be persuaded to crawl back into her hellhole — all she'd need is a gun, and the idea that there was something to shoot in there.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:45 pm

DoYouEverWonder wrote:
happenstance wrote:Palin video response with the "blood libel" quote still up here:

http://vimeo.com/18698532

Has she finally jumped the shark?

Will this woman ever just shut up and just go back to whatever hellhole she crawled out of?


No. If she were forced to answer the question posed to McCarthy, she would say, "Of course I have no shame!" She even managed to throw in a reference to 9/11 and limits to our freedoms without one hint of irony. There is no limit to what she can do. The limit is to what she can get away with.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby MacCruiskeen » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:45 pm

stillrobertpaulsen wrote:There is no limit to what she can do. The limit is to what she can get away with.


Only a hopeless romantic would think there's a limit to what she can get away with. Very belatedly, I'm now going to put money on Sarah Palin becoming the next President of the United States. What's to stop her? Reason? Justice? Dependable voting-machines?

Here's the BBC explaining (with the charitable and disingenuous assistance of Abe Foxman and Alan Dershowitz) that words no longer really mean anything at all. In post-reality, suggesting that Gabrielle Gifford's killer was influenced by right-wing demagogues IS equivalent to accusing Jews of ritually murdering Christian children. Anything can mean anything at all. (Hey, don't be pedantic! What are you, an élitist?)
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby Nordic » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:57 pm

Sarah Palin is nothing more than a useful tool. She will not be allowed to be President, ever. Barbara Bush has already made that clear.
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