How Bad Is Global Warming?

[JackRiddler]

Funny thing is, in 2019, reproducing the same cherrypicked quotations from ugly big capitalist men of the mid-twentieth century that were already circulated as "arguments" 30 years ago, and repeating the old saws about the Club of Rome and population control advocacy, as if there could be no other origin for the belief that there is an ongoing anthropogenic global eco-catastrophe and planetary extinction event driven by perpetual-growth capitalism and an economy based on hydrocarbon burning, merely confirms that this narrative was always useless and now long dead.

[FourthBase]

Looks like "disaster communism" is already a meme, embraced by the left, lol. Amazing. Not a whiff of awareness that this is exactly the kind of ideological bullshit that makes moderates and conservatives suspect that climate change is an exaggerated semi-hoax designed to empower the left, bullshit that is actually making action to solve climate change less likely. But hey, Muh Communism, right? The planet can go fuck itself until The Revolution, yeah? Socialism or bust!

https://www.leftvoice.org/the-solution- ... -communism

https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/3461-d ... -communism

Note the ludicrous hysteria. Worst climate in human history? LMFAO, noooooo. 6 degrees Celsius by 2100? LMFAO, noooooo. And you lefties can't fathom why people would think of climate change as the left's version of Reagan's extraterrestrial invasion? Fucking fools.

Still no explanation for how CO2 could've been 100 times more in the past but not any hotter, eh? I'm beginning to downgrade that 10% chance of alarmists being right to 5% or lower.

[FourthBase]

Hilarious in a grim way to watch people argue over whether alarmism is the capitalist plot or whether denialism is the capitalist plot. No such thing as a communist plot, ever! If you say the word "globalist" you're a Prison Planet crypto-antisemite or worse. It's a grave faux pas to be against a one world government, because how else are we going to achieve a socialist paradise? Greta is either a genuine folk hero or a neoliberal puppet. Couldn't be a commie puppet, lol! Those don't exist!

[brainpanhandler]

... this narrative was always useless and now long dead.

Useless in it's explanatory power, yes. Useless entirely? I'm not so sure. That strain of wackiness is not dead and it has a function and modern analogs and interconnects with a whole mess of obfuscation and misdirection. At a minimum it serves to direct people inclined to question how the world actually works down blind alleys and dead ends. Witness our friend Sounder. Has not changed their outlook on anything here ever. 13 years, same old shit.

[DrEvil]

I was going to respond to Sounder's long post, but Jack pretty much summed it up. Who gives a fuck what a bunch of long dead rich bastards thought. The world has moved on, and the science has kept piling up.

Also, there was never a consensus on the global cooling theory. It was talked about a lot in the seventies, mostly by the media with some sensationalist headlines, but the majority of scientists were in the warming camp. The ones looking into possible cooling came around to that same view after doing their research and concluding it wasn't happening. We should be cooling, but we're not because of greenhouse gases.

@fourthbase: I really don't get your obsession with communists*. They're a tiny group (there's dozens of them!) with little to no influence. Certainly nothing compared to the vast networks and power structures of the centre-right, neoliberal machine, or the far-right nationalists for that matter.

* With "communist" I mean actual communists, and not "anyone to the left of Clinton", which seems to be the definition a lot of Americans are operating with.

[FourthBase]

@fourthbase: I really don't get your obsession with communists*. They're a tiny group (there's dozens of them!) with little to no influence. Certainly nothing compared to the vast networks and power structures of the centre-right, neoliberal machine, or the far-right nationalists for that matter.

* With "communist" I mean actual communists, and not "anyone to the left of Clinton", which seems to be the definition a lot of Americans are operating with.

If the issue were just overt, doctrinaire, capital-C Communists then no it wouldn't be much to worry about. But as I've mentioned here before, recently, all the little distinctions and gradations between progressive and communist may mean the world to leftists desperate to differentiate themselves but they are fucking meaningless in the big picture from the vantage point of normal people. Every leftist wants the same goal, toppling capitalism. Every leftist wants to bake the same pie, just with different recipes, at different temperatures, setting different timers. For example, do you think Corbyn is meaningfully distinct from a communist? No, he is not. He is a communist wearing a costume of just enough moderation to make him politically viable to about half the UK. Beneath that costume is a raging commie. I know leftists love to think of themselves as a dying, powerless breed, but to pretend such a thing you have to exhaust a series of No True Scotsman rationalizations until you wind up with a little fringe clique. Are the democratic socialists who're indoctrinating multiple generations of Americans not commies? Of course they are, lol. They're just more patient and more PR-conscious, like the Labour Fabians. And it's more than just people bold enough to label themselves a "socialist" anything. Every progressive is, yes, deep down, a frustrated closeted communist who would love to be part of a campaign that undermines capitalism once and for all. Don't even pretend otherwise, it's not worth it. And so what could seem like just a pathetic little club of true believers actually amounts to many, many, many millions of allies. Yes, a vast network. Which, in case you haven't noticed, dominates almost every cultural lever. Entertainment, art, schools, news, social media, government bureaucracy. Especially the schools. For the last, oh, 40 years? Now even many corporate boards and many churches and even some of the military hierarchy and yes even the fucking CIA and other spook orgs are home to leftists who have an outsized influence. Culturally, the right wing pretty much only dominates the conservative churches, the rank and file of the military, and Wall Street. It's truly amazing that Trump won. Eisenhower or one of his speechwriters might call it a cultural-industrial complex. One that would give Gramsci wet dreams, buckets of triumphant cum. Wouldn't even require an explicit conspiracy in most cases, though, just like-minded scientists et al. who believe in a greater good. And holy shit we're not even talking about a whole superpower nation of a billion people which is literally controlled by big-C Communists although I'm sure leftists here would object that they're really state capitalists. No True Communist, lol!

Not that I don't recognize the malevolent power of the right. I just see things stereoscopically. You guys are all optimists if you think only the right is capable of conspiring. Nah. We're twice as fucked as that. But then again, as I mentioned above, maybe you lefties wouldn't even mind if a climate change semi-hoax wound up delivering the long-awaited paradise. It'd be for a good cause, right?

[Elvis]

If the issue were just overt, doctrinaire, capital-F Fascists then no it wouldn't be much to worry about. But as others mentioned here before, recently, all the little distinctions and gradations between conservative and Nazi may mean the world to conservatives desperate to differentiate themselves but they are fucking meaningless in the big picture from the vantage point of normal people. Every conservative wants the same goal, toppling community. Every conservative wants to bake the same pie, just with different recipes, at different temperatures, setting different timers. For example, do you think Romney is meaningfully distinct from a fascist? No, he is not. He is a fascist wearing a costume of just enough moderation to make him politically viable to about half the US. Beneath that costume is a raging Nazi. I know conservatives love to think of themselves as a dying, powerless breed, but to pretend such a thing you have to exhaust a series of No True American rationalizations until you wind up with a little fringe clique. Are the compassionate conservatives who're indoctrinating multiple generations of Americans not fascists? Of course they are, lol. They're just more patient and more PR-conscious, like the Junior League. And it's more than just people bold enough to label themselves a "conservative" anything. Every conservative is, yes, deep down, a frustrated closeted fascist who would love to be part of a campaign that undermines humane values once and for all. Don't even pretend otherwise, it's not worth it. And so what could seem like just a pathetic little club of true believers actually amounts to many, many, many millions of allies. Yes, a vast network. Which, in case you haven't noticed, dominates almost every cultural lever. Entertainment, art, schools, news, social media, government bureaucracy. Especially the schools. For the last, oh, 80 years? Now even many corporate boards and many churches and even some of the military hierarchy and yes even the fucking CIA and other spook orgs are home to fascists who have an outsized influence.

[FourthBase]

If the issue were just overt, doctrinaire, capital-F Fascists then no it wouldn't be much to worry about. But as others mentioned here before, recently, all the little distinctions and gradations between conservative and Nazi may mean the world to conservatives desperate to differentiate themselves but they are fucking meaningless in the big picture from the vantage point of normal people. Every conservative wants the same goal, toppling community. Every conservative wants to bake the same pie, just with different recipes, at different temperatures, setting different timers. For example, do you think Romney is meaningfully distinct from a fascist? No, he is not. He is a fascist wearing a costume of just enough moderation to make him politically viable to about half the US. Beneath that costume is a raging Nazi. I know conservatives love to think of themselves as a dying, powerless breed, but to pretend such a thing you have to exhaust a series of No True American rationalizations until you wind up with a little fringe clique. Are the compassionate conservatives who're indoctrinating multiple generations of Americans not fascists? Of course they are, lol. They're just more patient and more PR-conscious, like the Junior League. And it's more than just people bold enough to label themselves a "conservative" anything. Every conservative is, yes, deep down, a frustrated closeted fascist who would love to be part of a campaign that undermines humane values once and for all. Don't even pretend otherwise, it's not worth it. And so what could seem like just a pathetic little club of true believers actually amounts to many, many, many millions of allies. Yes, a vast network. Which, in case you haven't noticed, dominates almost every cultural lever. Entertainment, art, schools, news, social media, government bureaucracy. Especially the schools. For the last, oh, 80 years? Now even many corporate boards and many churches and even some of the military hierarchy and yes even the fucking CIA and other spook orgs are home to fascists who have an outsized influence.

Nice try, but: Fail.

[Elvis]

Your black-and-white/all-or-nothing vision fails. The reversable garment doesn't fit, period.

[FourthBase]

Your black-and-white/all-or-nothing vision fails. The reversable garment doesn't fit, period.

Yeah, yeah. Except you know damn well that progressives really do want capitalism overthrown, just more gradually. So they are essentially more patient, more subtle communists. You really gonna deny that with a straight face?

My vision isn't all-or-nothing, is mainly why you failed. Notice that I didn't say liberals. Whereas you went straight for conservative. Couldn't find the mirror equivalent of a progressive, eh? Hmm, I wonder why.

Liberals, moderates, conservatives: These are the normal people. If you can identify a boundary within conservatism which separates normal conservatives from crypto-fascists, by all means, try your switcheroo again, I'd be interested in seeing it improved. I want you to pass! I want the analogy to work both ways.

But I noticed where you started stumbling the most and eventually quit. Kind of laughable to claim that the right wing dominates culture, isn't it? The left really does, though. It'll be hard for you to adapt to that in a switcheroo that actually works, but I look forward to seeing the attempt.

[Elvis]

I guess you will need to define the following terms:

- leftist
- progressive
- socialism
- conservative
- right wing
- communist
- capitalist


I basically just find your analysis goofy. Maybe your definitions of these terms will help me better understand it.

[Sounder]

and repeating the old saws about the Club of Rome and population control advocacy, as if there could be no other origin for the belief...

You are welcome to chart other origins.

At any rate I largely agree that there is substance to the belief that, as Jack says; 'there is an ongoing anthropogenic global eco-catastrophe and planetary extinction event driven by perpetual-growth capitalism and an economy based on hydrocarbon burning'

Except that I do not accept the capitalism/socialism dichotomy. (We already have plenty of socialism, that funnels the assets of society to the rich while it calls itself capitalism, great scam.) Socialism can mis-allocate resources just as effectively as capitalism in our post truth world. As godfather Maurice Strong said; I am a socialist by mentality but a capitalist in methodology.

I do think that planetary extinction event potentials have to do with a wide range of dysfunctional inputs that humans currently labor under rather than the effects of CO2. (I will spare you the list to avoid the whataboutism charge.)

Still hydrocarbon burning must and can be stopped because it is crude and dirty.

Does tech or understanding exist that can obviate this need? Stan Meyer claimed he built a car that ran on water. Dr. Evil would say that did not happen because it is not possible.

Sorry, I do not look to climate alarmists for advice as to what is possible just as I do not look to drug pushers(doctors) for advise on drug usage.

[Elvis]

Getting off-topic for sure, but...

Culturally, the right wing pretty much only dominates the conservative churches, the rank and file of the military, and Wall Street.

Oh really?

sanders mil contribs.jpg

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/08/20 ... ributions/

The US military is the largest employer in the world, providing jobs and free or subsidized housing, food and education to its rank & file. Commies!

[DrEvil]

and repeating the old saws about the Club of Rome and population control advocacy, as if there could be no other origin for the belief...

...snip...

Does tech or understanding exist that can obviate this need? Stan Meyer claimed he built a car that ran on water. Dr. Evil would say that did not happen because it is not possible.

...snip...

Wut? Cars running on water isn't anything new (hint: the H in H2O). The problem with Meyer's engine was that he claimed he could do electrolysis with less energy than physically possible, which is frowned upon by the laws of thermodynamics. All his patents are expired so anyone is free to build his engine.

[DrEvil]

@fourthbase: your definition of communism is nonsensical and plain wrong. Democratic socialists aren't communists, Corbyn isn't a communist. None of them want to overthrow capitalism, they want to keep its worst excesses in check. You sound like McCarthy.