How Bad Is Global Warming?

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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby FourthBase » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:23 pm

DrEvil » 31 Dec 2019 17:11 wrote:@fourthbase: your definition of communism is nonsensical and plain wrong. Democratic socialists aren't communists, Corbyn isn't a communist. None of them want to overthrow capitalism, they want to keep its worst excesses in check. You sound like McCarthy.


Right, of course, democratic socialists want to preserve capitalism.

:lol:

And they could never be communists, because the kind of socialism they want is democratic, although yes it may have to be brought about by a determined core of gradualist crypto-revolutionaries who've been properly educated to lead the masses whether the masses democratically want socialism or not, but once it's in place they swear it'll be democratic.

:lol:

McCarthy was mostly accurate because almost all the people he persecuted really were communists, no? So...thanks?
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby FourthBase » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:43 pm

Elvis » 31 Dec 2019 15:25 wrote:I guess you will need to define the following terms:

- leftist
- progressive
- socialism
- conservative
- right wing
- communist
- capitalist


I basically just find your analysis goofy. Maybe your definitions of these terms will help me better understand it.


Maybe this belongs in its own thread? How about "Short Definitions for Extremely Complicated Political Categories Pulled from My Ass" as a title?

Leftist: Anyone from a progressive to a communist.

Progressive: Once upon a time, somebody who wanted to make capitalism socially responsible. For the last few decades just the term that closeted communists use as a beard.

Socialism: Communism but without all the nasty coercion, they swear.

Conservative: Somebody who wants things to stay the same or in some ways go backwards; generally likes the concept of capitalism.

Right wing: People reacting against the excesses of the left wing; traditionalists; military fetishists; includes piece of shit fascists on the tail of the continuum.

Communist: Socialism at gunpoint, on a societal scale; on a personal scale, someone who shares everything equally.

Capitalist: People who believe in private property; anything from giant transnational laissez faire scumbags willing to sell their mother for a profit, to individual corner store proprietors; my controversial definition would be so expansive as to include Mondragon, i.e., my ideal capitalism is one where workers own the businesses they work for.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Sounder » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:40 am

The old saws about the Club of Rome was merely the setup, the payoff though is happening right now.

It is amusing to see haters of capitalism effectively advocate for the shoveling of money toward the richest men on the planet, during a time of growing inequality. It must have taken dozens of Rhodes scholars to pull this one off. :ohwh


The members of Breakthrough Energy include Virgin Air’s Richard Branson, Bill Gates, Alibaba’s Jack Ma, Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg, HRH Prince Al-waleed bin Talal, Bridgewater Associates’ Ray Dalio; Julian Robertson of hedge fund giant, Tiger Management; David Rubenstein, founder Carlyle Group; George Soros, Chairman Soros Fund Management LLC; Masayoshi Son, founder Softbank, Japan.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby FourthBase » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:26 am

Sounder » 02 Jan 2020 04:40 wrote:The old saws about the Club of Rome was merely the setup, the payoff though is happening right now.

It is amusing to see haters of capitalism effectively advocate for the shoveling of money toward the richest men on the planet, during a time of growing inequality. It must have taken dozens of Rhodes scholars to pull this one off. :ohwh


The members of Breakthrough Energy include Virgin Air’s Richard Branson, Bill Gates, Alibaba’s Jack Ma, Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg, HRH Prince Al-waleed bin Talal, Bridgewater Associates’ Ray Dalio; Julian Robertson of hedge fund giant, Tiger Management; David Rubenstein, founder Carlyle Group; George Soros, Chairman Soros Fund Management LLC; Masayoshi Son, founder Softbank, Japan.


That is interesting. Suggests two basic possibilities, as I see it. Either the anti-capitalist activists shoveling all that money to those super-rich capitalists aren't really anti-capitalists. Or those super-rich capitalists aren't really capitalists. Let's see. One of them is literally a Communist. Another one is the George Soros. Another one just announced to the world that capitalism is fatally broken. Hmm.

I'm placing chips on both the upper left and the upper right squares. I'm betting on both black and red. It's not a winning strategy if your goal is to profit. Pretty good strategy if you want to be right, though.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby DrEvil » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:28 pm

FourthBase » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:23 am wrote:
DrEvil » 31 Dec 2019 17:11 wrote:@fourthbase: your definition of communism is nonsensical and plain wrong. Democratic socialists aren't communists, Corbyn isn't a communist. None of them want to overthrow capitalism, they want to keep its worst excesses in check. You sound like McCarthy.


Right, of course, democratic socialists want to preserve capitalism.

:lol:

And they could never be communists, because the kind of socialism they want is democratic, although yes it may have to be brought about by a determined core of gradualist crypto-revolutionaries who've been properly educated to lead the masses whether the masses democratically want socialism or not, but once it's in place they swear it'll be democratic.

:lol:

McCarthy was mostly accurate because almost all the people he persecuted really were communists, no? So...thanks?


Um... The democratic socialists in the US want to emulate the Nordic model, which is very much capitalist, but with strong safety nets and sensible regulations on top. That's it.

I still don't get why you're so paranoid about communists. Almost all the people you claim are communists are not, they're bog standard leftists, or in some cases centre-right by European standards, like most of the current democratic candidates.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby FourthBase » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:05 pm

DrEvil » 02 Jan 2020 14:28 wrote:
FourthBase » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:23 am wrote:
DrEvil » 31 Dec 2019 17:11 wrote:@fourthbase: your definition of communism is nonsensical and plain wrong. Democratic socialists aren't communists, Corbyn isn't a communist. None of them want to overthrow capitalism, they want to keep its worst excesses in check. You sound like McCarthy.


Right, of course, democratic socialists want to preserve capitalism.

:lol:

And they could never be communists, because the kind of socialism they want is democratic, although yes it may have to be brought about by a determined core of gradualist crypto-revolutionaries who've been properly educated to lead the masses whether the masses democratically want socialism or not, but once it's in place they swear it'll be democratic.

:lol:

McCarthy was mostly accurate because almost all the people he persecuted really were communists, no? So...thanks?


Um... The democratic socialists in the US want to emulate the Nordic model, which is very much capitalist, but with strong safety nets and sensible regulations on top. That's it.


No, that's what a liberal actually wants. That's what an old-fashioned bona fide progressive (rather than a communist disguised as one for respectability's sake) would actually want. A democratic socialist only wants to emulate the Scandinavians as a prerequisite step toward doing away with capitalism altogether and installing true, full socialism. Otherwise they wouldn't be socialists. And, given the price of declaring oneself a socialist, that's the part they really mean. The "democratic" part is just a marketing signal that "We're not the scary kind!" They may indeed succeed in one day getting a democratic majority of Americans to favor socialism...after several decades of controlling the levers of culture and indoctrinating youth nonstop from birth. But hey, only capitalists would do such a thing as manufacture consent, so, nothing to see, move along.

I still don't get why you're so paranoid about communists. Almost all the people you claim are communists are not, they're bog standard leftists, or in some cases centre-right by European standards, like most of the current democratic candidates.


What the fuck is a "bog standard leftist"?

Why would I ever in a million years give the slightest shit about how Europeans categorize politics? Should I also care how centrism is defined in the People's Republic? Might as well tell me that Bernie Sanders would be considered a right winger in the Soviet Union.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Elvis » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:15 pm

https://investindk.com/insights/denmark-once-again-among-the-best-countries-for-doing-business

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The ranking emphasises how Denmark is a thoroughly modern market economy and takes the lead with its high-tech agricultural sector and high-performing companies within among others the pharmaceutical, maritime and renewable energy industry. Furthermore, Denmark offers highly competitive business costs and a famously flexible labour market with a highly skilled workforce.

An environment where business thrives

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In the 2017 report, Denmark ranks:

No. 1 on corruption
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The U.S. is 17th on the list.

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#16 South Korea
#17 United States
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby DrEvil » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:22 pm

^^ Edit: this was a reply to fourthbase, not elvis

No, that's what a liberal actually wants. That's what an old-fashioned bona fide progressive (rather than a communist disguised as one for respectability's sake) would actually want. A democratic socialist only wants to emulate the Scandinavians as a prerequisite step toward doing away with capitalism altogether and installing true, full socialism. Otherwise they wouldn't be socialists. And, given the price of declaring oneself a socialist, that's the part they really mean. The "democratic" part is just a marketing signal that "We're not the scary kind!" They may indeed succeed in one day getting a democratic majority of Americans to favor socialism...after several decades of controlling the levers of culture and indoctrinating youth nonstop from birth. But hey, only capitalists would do such a thing as manufacture consent, so, nothing to see, move along.


Okay, fair enough. I tend to think of social democrats and democratic socialists as the same thing, but there are some differences, as you point out.

That said, I don't really see the problem with democratic socialism *. I don't mind a market economy, but does it have to be a capitalist one? Why should there be a handful of billionaires owning 90% of everything instead of everyone owning 90% of everything? Why is it bad that the state or the workers owns something and spends the profits on its people instead of a rich guy owning it and spending the profits on himself?

* Full disclaimer: I'm a communist in principle but a social democrat in practice, as communism isn't possible in today's world. It's a utopian pipe-dream and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future. If we one day get to a fully automated, post-scarcity society where everyone can get whatever they want simply by asking I'll reconsider. Or to put it this way: I'd like to live in Iain M. Banks' Culture, but that's not gonna happen.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby FourthBase » Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:56 pm

DrEvil » 02 Jan 2020 16:22 wrote:^^ Edit: this was a reply to fourthbase, not elvis

No, that's what a liberal actually wants. That's what an old-fashioned bona fide progressive (rather than a communist disguised as one for respectability's sake) would actually want. A democratic socialist only wants to emulate the Scandinavians as a prerequisite step toward doing away with capitalism altogether and installing true, full socialism. Otherwise they wouldn't be socialists. And, given the price of declaring oneself a socialist, that's the part they really mean. The "democratic" part is just a marketing signal that "We're not the scary kind!" They may indeed succeed in one day getting a democratic majority of Americans to favor socialism...after several decades of controlling the levers of culture and indoctrinating youth nonstop from birth. But hey, only capitalists would do such a thing as manufacture consent, so, nothing to see, move along.


Okay, fair enough. I tend to think of social democrats and democratic socialists as the same thing, but there are some differences, as you point out.

That said, I don't really see the problem with democratic socialism *. I don't mind a market economy, but does it have to be a capitalist one? Why should there be a handful of billionaires owning 90% of everything instead of everyone owning 90% of everything? Why is it bad that the state or the workers owns something and spends the profits on its people instead of a rich guy owning it and spending the profits on himself?

* Full disclaimer: I'm a communist in principle but a social democrat in practice, as communism isn't possible in today's world. It's a utopian pipe-dream and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future. If we one day get to a fully automated, post-scarcity society where everyone can get whatever they want simply by asking I'll reconsider. Or to put it this way: I'd like to live in Iain M. Banks' Culture, but that's not gonna happen.


Look, me, personally, I don't give a fuck if being a billionaire were legally prohibited, I'd even be in favor of a salary cap or a wealth cap much, much lower than that. I wouldn't care if the size of corporate entities were restricted to a certain smallness, I think efficiency and scale is overrated, consider me a distributivist. I think workers directly owning the businesses they work for is the purist form of capitalism, but apparently that stance makes me a fool who doesn't realize he's a syndicalist because capitalism is inherently about the greedy capitalists not the capital itself, or so says the commies who want to claim cooperative ownership all to themselves. I wouldn't mind if the energy industry were nationalized, just to make sure it never fuels unnecessary wars and manmade global warming, even if climate alarmism right now is a nothingburger. I'm in favor of all sorts of extra consumer-protection regulations and fundamental limits on Wall Street, most importantly a law revoking shareholder primacy. I think all impoverished people should be guaranteed free food and shelter and clothing, but only the absolute minimum, i.e., prison standards. Most libertarians and conservatives would probably think I'm a pinko for favoring all that. Maybe I am, a little. But I'm also not the most economically literate person in the world. I do know enough to know that there would be huge downsides to what I favor, due to basic economics and human nature, downsides that leftists love to pretend don't exist. One of the worst of those downsides, though, would be emboldening the socialists who want to abolish private property, nevermind the communists who want to murder all landlords. The current form of capitalism sucks to the degree that anything giant, top-down, centralized, bureaucratic, unaccountable, antidemocratic, and anticompetitive sucks -- and a socialist government monopoly would be even worse. Letting utopian socialists get critical momentum toward forcing everyone to indulge their control freak delusions of grandeur is almost enough of a nightmare to make me content with capitalism exactly as it is. Especially when those socialists tend to want to destroy America, period, not just capitalism. Especially when more and more of those socialists are (facepalm) dreaming of automating the world like that transhumanist/posthumanist creep Banks imagined, oblivious to the inevitable dystopian hell. (Yes, let's "advance" to the point of robbing humanity of all purpose, and let's save the planet by paperclipping the universe...ugh.) How about instead of dreaming about post-scarcity and being pathologically dissatisfied, we remind ourselves how goddamned lucky spoiled we are, in terms of standard of living. Even poor Americans can live better than ancient royalty. That's part of what makes me suspect a climate change hoax, the chance that things might get good enough materially, too good, for even the poorest, to sustain the push for socialism, so the left might need an ultimate trump card.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby DrEvil » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:14 pm

^^ I pretty much agree with you, so it seems our disagreement is more about the meaning of the various labels we put on things, but I still think your opinions on socialists are slightly alarmist. The kind of hardliners you're worried about are a tiny minority.

Also, I don't think Banks was a transhumanist or a creep, just a leftist (with socialist leanings) who thought up the Culture as a counterpoint to the right-wing military/space opera that's being pushed out by the metric ton. His politics would be right at home here on rigint. If you haven't read him you should, he was a great author. Player of Games is a good starting point.

But anyway, Australia is on fire and Jakarta is under water, and more and more scientists think we might already have passed a critical tipping point, and Trump just shoved America's dick in a hornet's nest again. Happy new year!
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby FourthBase » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:16 pm

DrEvil » 03 Jan 2020 15:14 wrote:^^ I pretty much agree with you, so it seems our disagreement is more about the meaning of the various labels we put on things, but I still think your opinions on socialists are slightly alarmist. The kind of hardliners you're worried about are a tiny minority.


Overt hardliners. Obviously very few want to present themselves as a hardliner because the precious masses aren't actually down with it. The only winning strategy for utopian socialists is Fabian, using the cultural route per Gramsci, and it's been working slowly but splendidly, and it's been speeding up lately.

Also, I don't think Banks was a transhumanist or a creep, just a leftist (with socialist leanings) who thought up the Culture as a counterpoint to the right-wing military/space opera that's being pushed out by the metric ton. His politics would be right at home here on rigint. If you haven't read him you should, he was a great author. Player of Games is a good starting point.


I'll take a look at Player of Games. To know the enemy. When somebody spends their whole career writing transhumanist literature, and his transhumanist fans all think he was a transhumanist, that's a transhumanist.

Came across this in a quick search. These retarded "rationalists" are going to get us all killed, and call it progress. I realized I am definitely a bioconservative neo-Luddite.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/vwnSPgw ... of-destiny

These anthropicidal freaks are at the forefront of campaigning to save humanity from existential risks like climate change. Because extinction will rob them of their posthuman fantasies! It's like an arsonist concerned that a hurricane could destroy a house before he gets the chance to burn it to ashes. Honestly, if global warming wiped out 99% of humanity but at the same time ensured that transhumanism would never, ever, ever make a comeback? Sucks, but: Yep, bring it. Less harm.

But anyway, Australia is on fire and Jakarta is under water, and more and more scientists think we might already have passed a critical tipping point, and Trump just shoved America's dick in a hornet's nest again. Happy new year!


Troubling.

Just out of curiosity, how many dedicated hardcore climate alarmists would it theoretically take to fan out across Australia and spark whatever number of fires it would take to make this bushfire season especially scary? Obviously it would be easier with a team of 5, 10, 20, 30. But I think the minimum is: One. Especially if it really is the driest, hottest ever. Just need to add some fires here and there on top of the naturally occurring number.

I'll ask again: Who here would morally object to such a false flag for such a good, desperate cause? Anyone?
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby FourthBase » Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:14 pm

p.s. Jakarta is underwater because it's sinking. It'd also be flooded without climate change. Any other cities that'd make a better example?
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Sounder » Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:20 pm

Dr. Evil, of course there is more going on than arsonists, but when everything gets attributed to ACC it starts to sound more like superstition than science. With science we are supposed to try to falsify the assumption, whereas with superstition everything validates the belief. When dissenters are kicked out of academia as the great barrier reef and polar bear profs were, a disservice is done to the rational pursuit of knowledge.


I checked because there was a story a week or so ago where a young volunteer was caught setting fires. I didn't find that story but did find an article that says half of brush fires are set by arsonists.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real- ... ca2ce8fb56

Yikes, why do so many people have such a casual attitude toward potential implications of impulsive activity?

AD reflects the attitude well in the Primitivism or Transhumanism thread (stupid dichotomy there) where he jokes about shooting out a light bulb. Great, that will really help out humanity in the long run.

Back in the day, Seattle 1999 protests, I figured that the black block were govt. plants. Maybe they were, but now they seem to be disturbingly organic.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby FourthBase » Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:46 pm

About half of them are arson?

What in the hell...

HALF? :ohwh

Okay, I'll bet one million partyhat emoticons that at least one of those arsonists is a desperate climate activist.

:partyhat × 1,000,000

Half! And that probably goes for the fires in California, too? And in Hawaii, half? How about the Amazon? Must be significantly less than half there, right? But then again...who's investigating those?
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby PufPuf93 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:21 am

Anyone that seriously considers global climate change a hoax is pretty much a fool, a moron, and a willing tool of the corporations, military, and obscenely wealthy that just don't give a fuck about the planet nor humanity.

Trump Rule Would Exclude Climate Change in Infrastructure Planning

WASHINGTON — Federal agencies would no longer have to take climate change into account when they assess the environmental impacts of highways, pipelines and other major infrastructure projects, according to a Trump administration plan that would weaken the nation’s benchmark environmental law.

The proposed changes to the 50-year-old National Environmental Policy Act could sharply reduce obstacles to the Keystone XL oil pipeline and other fossil fuel projects that have been stymied when courts ruled that the Trump administration did not properly consider climate change when analyzing the environmental effects of the projects.

According to one government official who has seen the proposed regulation but was not authorized to speak about it publicly, the administration will also narrow the range of projects that require environmental review. That could make it likely that more projects will sail through the approval process without having to disclose plans to do things like discharge waste, cut trees or increase air pollution.

The new rule would no longer require agencies to consider the “cumulative” consequences of new infrastructure. In recent years courts have interpreted that requirement as a mandate to study the effects of allowing more planet-warming greenhouse gas emissions into the atmosphere. It also has meant understanding the impacts of rising sea levels and other results of climate change on a given project.

The act requires the federal government to prepare detailed analyses of projects that could have significant environmental effects, including long-term impacts that courts have said include climate change. Since 1970, when the law was enacted, it has undergone only one major change. That was in 1983, when the [insert Reagan] White House Council on Environmental Quality limited the use of worst-case scenarios in project reviews.

But the Trump administration has been aggressive in its efforts to roll back environmental regulations. The 50 or so pages of revisions that the Council on Environmental Quality is expected to make public on Wednesday would not amend the act itself. Rather, they would revise the rules that guide the implementation of the law.

Once the proposed rules are filed in the federal register, the public will have 60 days to comment on them, the official said. A final regulation is expected before the presidential election in November.
Dan Schneider, spokesman for the Council on Environmental Quality, said in a statement that the environmental law was overdue for an update. “The Trump administration is focused on improving the environmental review and permitting process while ensuring a safe, healthy, and productive environment for all Americans,” he said.

President Trump’s latest effort to eliminate regulations on industry appears also to be a play to win over construction trade unions that have long complained that the National Environmental Policy Act has tied up energy and transit projects that create jobs.

“The environmental review process designed to improve decision-making has become increasingly complex and difficult to navigate,” Mr. Trump said in a presidential message on New Year’s Day to mark the 50th anniversary of the act.

He criticized the “significant uncertainty and delays that can increase costs, derail important projects, and threaten jobs for American workers and labor union members” and said revisions would “benefit our economy and environment.”

Environmental activists and legal experts said the proposed changes would weaken critical safeguards for air, water and wildlife. The move, if it survives the expected court challenges, also could eliminate a powerful tool that climate change activists have used to stop or slow Mr. Trump’s encouragement of coal and oil development as part of its “energy dominance” policy.
In March, a federal judge found that the Obama administration did not adequately take into account the climate change impact of leasing public land for oil gas drilling in Wyoming, a ruling that also presented a threat to Mr. Trump’s plans for fossil fuel development.

One month later, another federal judge dealt a blow to Mr. Trump’s plan to lift an Obama-era moratorium on coal mining on public lands when he found the administration did not adequately study the environmental effects of mining as required by law.

And in 2018, a federal court cited the environmental policy act when it halted construction on the Keystone pipeline, a project President Trump has been determined to see become a reality. The court said the Trump administration had failed to justify reversing the Obama administration’s ruling that the pipeline would unduly worsen climate change. The case is still under litigation.

The Trump administration “simply discarded prior factual findings related to climate change to support its course reversal,” Judge Brian Morris of the United States District Court for Montana wrote at the time.

Michael Gerrard, director of Columbia University’s Sabin Center for Climate Change Law, said eliminating the need to consider climate change would lead to more pipelines and other projects that worsen global emissions. It could also put roads, bridges and other infrastructure at greater risk, he said, because developers would not be required, for instance, to analyze whether sea-level rise threatened to eventually submerge a project.

“It has the potential to distort infrastructure planning by making it easier to ignore predictable futures that could severely degrade the projects,” Mr. Gerrard said.
With the proposed changes, said Brett Hartl, government affairs director for the Center for Biological Diversity, “You’re assuming away massive amounts of harm and you’re not even going to discuss it.”

But Michael Bridges, president of the Longview-Kelso Building and Construction Trades Council in Washington State, said he was eager to see the law revised. He said groups opposed to fossil fuels were using the environmental policy act to tie up a major coal export terminal in the state.

“We had everything from singing grandmas to people dressed up as endangered species coming in,” Mr. Bridges said of public hearings on the terminal.

A state analysis concluded that the terminal would allow 22 million more tons of carbon dioxide emissions into the atmosphere over its projected 20-year life span. Mr. Bridges said he wanted strong environmental laws, but ones that take the local economy into consideration. The coal terminal, he noted, would replace an old aluminum smelter that shuttered in 2001, eliminating about 1,500 jobs.
“That was a big hit for us,” he said. “I’m living in these communities, I’m building these projects, and we want them to be safe. The reason this is effective for environmental groups is that they’re able to keep timing it out until the businesses run out of money to fight it or it doesn’t make sense anymore.”

While Mr. Trump may not be known for deep involvement in policy matters, one administration official said the president, as a former real estate developer, was familiar with the National Environmental Policy Act and has expressed keen interest in the law’s revisions. In one of his earliest environmental announcements, Mr. Trump signed an executive order to speed permitting for infrastructure, complaining that building a highway can take up to 17 years because of what he called burdensome regulations.

Mr. Gerrard said the environmental review requirements of New York’s state-level version of the environmental policy act had helped to defeat a golf course that Mr. Trump hoped to build in Mount Kisco, N.Y. The Seven Springs golf course would have abutted Byram Lake, a reservoir for drinking water. Mr. Gerrard, who represented opponents of the project, said environmental reviews enabled the community to show that the drinking water supply could have been endangered. Mr. Trump shelved the project in 2004, but his public comments indicate the episode still rankles.

In a speech to the National Association of Realtors in May, Mr. Trump told an appreciative crowd: “I was building a development. I was going to build some really luxury, beautiful houses.” But, he said: “I found out that I can’t build on the land. Does that make sense to you?”

From NYTimes via MSN.com https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/trump ... spartanntp
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