Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

[compared2what?]

I'm sorry to say it's "something like them" for now, in a way. Because this is from the packaging insert from the pharamaceutical company, and you know they've gotta be lowballing it by at least a little. It's probably not too, too far from reality, though, as far as it goes. The consensus seems to be that most people who take it get side effects they very much dislike, but not that many of them get the same side effects.

Which range pretty far and wide, including:

Endocrine

Endocrine side effects of leuprolide have included hot flashes (56% to 91%), gynecomastia (7%), breast changes (7%), breast enlargement (7%), breast tenderness (7% to 14%), decrease in testicular size, diabetes, and impotence. In addition, rare cases of pituitary apoplexy have been reported after the use of gonadotropin-releasing hormone agents.

Endocrine side effects occur in the majority of patients treated with leuprolide and are due to drug-induced hypoestrogenism and hypoandrogenism.

Pituitary apoplexy is a clinical syndrome secondary to infarction of the pituitary gland. In a majority of the cases reported, a pituitary adenoma was diagnosed. A majority of pituitary apoplexy cases occurred within two weeks of the first dose, and some occurred within the first hour. In those cases, pituitary apoplexy presented as sudden headache, vomiting, visual changes, ophthalmoplegia, altered mental status, and sometimes cardiovascular collapse. Immediate medical attention has been required.

Psychiatric

Psychiatric side effects have included depression and emotional lability (up to 45%), insomnia (2% to 7%), anxiety, nervousness, decreased libido (both males and females), increased libido (females), and short-term memory loss.

Nervous system

Nervous system side effects have included headache (7% to 39%), dizziness (5%), blurred vision, lethargy, paresthesias, numbness, peripheral neuropathy, spinal fracture, convulsions, transient ischemic attack, and paralysis. A case of atypical absence seizures induced by leuprolide acetate has also been reported.

Genitourinary

A number of cases of vaginal hemorrhage are reported in the literature. The presence of submucous leiomyomatas may be responsible for these events. These patients typically required emergency surgery and blood transfusions.

Massive ascites developed in one patient 3 weeks after receiving a 3.75 mg leuprolide depot injection for the treatment of leiomyomata uteri. Upon surgical resection, the uterine myomas were noted to be seeping large amounts of serous fluid.

Genitourinary side effects have included vaginal dryness (37%), urinary frequency, hematuria, ovarian hyperstimulation, testicular soreness/pain, breast soreness/tenderness,testicular atrophy, erectile dysfunction, penile disorder, reduced penis size and vaginal hemorrhage.

Cardiovascular

Cardiovascular side effects have included ECG changes (19%), ischemia (19%), peripheral edema (12%), hypertension, hypotension, murmur, phlebitis, venous and arterial thromboembolism, deep vein thrombosis, stroke, arrhythmias, angina, pulmonary edema, pulmonary embolism, and myocardial infarction.

Gastrointestinal

Gastrointestinal side effects have included constipation (7%), anorexia (3% to 6%), nausea and vomiting (5%), weight loss, flatulence, dyspepsia, and weight gain.

Dermatologic

Dermatologic side effects have included skin rash (7%), acne, dry skin, ecchymosis, hair loss (up to 18% of females), pruritus, photosensitivity, clamminess, night sweats, increased sweating, and skin pigmentation.

Musculoskeletal

An initial increase in testosterone levels may occur during the first 2 weeks of therapy with leuprolide. An increase in bone pain, as well as worsening of other signs and symptoms of advanced prostate cancer, may be noted during this time period.

Hypoestrogenism induced by leuprolide may result in small losses in bone density. Prolonged use of leuprolide in females may increase the risk of osteoporosis.

Musculoskeletal side effects have included increased bone pain in patients with advanced prostate cancer, myalgias, arthralgias, muscle atrophy, limb pain, lower bone density scores, and tenosynovitis-like symptoms. A case of polymyositis and a case of noninflammatory myopathy have also been reported.

Hypersensitivity

A case of anaphylaxis after a single intramuscular injection of leuprolide depot is reported in the literature. On two occasions, 24 hours and 6 weeks after injection, the patient required emergency airway management. The patient continued to require regular doses of antihistamines and intermittent epinephrine injections up to 14 weeks after leuprolide administration.

Hypersensitivity reactions have included a rare report of urticaria, shortness of breath, and anaphylaxis with the depot form. Other reports of anaphylactic reactions to synthetic GnRH or GnRH agonist analogs have also been reported in the medical literature.

Hematologic

Hematologic side effects have included anemia, leukopenia, and hemoptysis.

Respiratory


Respiratory side effects have included dyspnea, sinus congestion, cough, pleural rub, and pulmonary fibrosis.

Local

Local side effects have included erythema, ecchymosis, induration, abscess, and irritation at the site of injection.

Oncologic

Oncologic side effects have been reported including case reports of granulomas. Animal studies including an increase in benign pituitary hyperplasia and benign pituitary adenomas, an increase of pancreatic islet cell adenomas in females, and an increase of testicular cell adenomas in males have also been reported.

Other

Other side effects including symptoms consistent with fibromyalgia (e.g., joint and muscle pain, headaches, sleep disorders, gastrointestinal distress, and shortness of breath) have been reported. Hearing disorder, hard nodule in throat, weight gain, and increased uric acid have also been reported.

Hepatic


Hepatic side effects including hepatic dysfunction have been reported.

General

General side effects including sweating, syncope, rigors, weakness, and lethargy have been reported.

Renal

Renal side effects have included difficulties with urination, pain on urination, scanty urination, bladder spasm, blood in urine, urinary retention, urinary urgency, incontinence, nocturia, and aggravated nocturia.

[compared2what?]

But I have to admit that to me, the main issue is more with the effects than it is with the side effects. It's a very heavy-duty drug that fucks with the endrocine system. There's no reason to give it to children (or adults) with ASDs. The Geiers originally claimed that testosterone binds with mercury in sheets in the brain (or blood or something like that), thus keeping it in the system.

But even they've subsequently admitted that they just made that up. Although I believe the way they put it was something more like a concession that it was unproven. Which it sure as hell is, in the sense that there's not an iota of proof for it. Testosterone binds with mercury in hot benzene in a petri dish in a lab, according to a paper someone published describing that interaction. But that has no implications at all for what it does in living human tissues, irrespective of their mercury toxicity. Because there's a whole lot more going on there than there is in a petri dish. It's just not the same interaction, by any conceivable stretch of the imagination.

[catbirdsteed]

Can you cite some figures as to how Lupron has harmed autistic children?

Not per se, no. There are studies on the harmful effects of Lupron with numbers that are as applicable to anyone taking it as they are to anyone else taking it, though. And I'll go rustle those up for you in a moment. Along with the ones for Androcur, which is also part of the Lupron Protocol. Or it is per the Geiers, who came up with it, at least.

But catbirdsteed, are you seriously asking me to explain how and why it's harmful to chemically suppress hormone production in children? You're not supposed to give Lupron and Androcur to children at all. They're not approved for pediatric use. They're hormone suppressants.

No, I am asking if you have any indication regarding studies /results /lawsuits that will serve to drive the point further home in regards as to how dangerous and inappropriate this protocol is.

Presumably the Geier's are still doing this. According to their figures there are hundreds of former patients. There are lawsuits in regards to adult use and in regards to price gouging by the manufacture. Is it simply the nature of confidentiality in regards to children's issues that does not allow any lawsuits to be easily locatable? Are there in fact very few, if any lawsuits out there? A lack of litigation would not indicate safety (not my goal, at any rate) but it certainly would not support the serious dangers that most curebie despising activists have been proclaiming.

As far as not giving Lupron to children at all: it is approved for pediatric precocious puberty. Again, I do not support this idea, there are other safer and more sustainable ways to approach such a problem. I am mainly interested in in this politically because it is repeatedly being used to malign Wakefield. If someone could find an direct association that AW is an advocate of Lupron for autistic children then this off topic stuff would begin to make more sense.

Most psych meds that are prescribed to autistic children do in fact cause hormone disruption as an unintended and poorly acknowledged consequence. Numerous environmental and personal care/household issues are involved. One autistic child i knew liked to chew on and ingest phthalates containing plastics regularly. ( I attempted to stop him while i was around, but medically there was no real concern from his mother or physician. ) These disruptions can lead to growth imbalances, sexual dysfunction, mood disorders and diabetes etc. I see very little outrage or even concern by the anti treatment community on this reality.

Phthalates. Studies have found damaged, shrunken, undescended, or atrophied testicles; reduced sperm production; damaged sperm, destruction of Sertoli cells (which produce sperm) and lowered testosterone levels in offspring. Phthalates are used as softeners, or plasticizers, in polyvinyl chloride (PVC, vinyl) products, including children's toys, some teethers, food packaging and cling wraps, medical devices, backpacks, shower curtains, vinyl flooring, wallpaper, decorating and building products, blood bags, adhesives, mosquito insect repellents, plastic plumbing pipes, nail polish, skin moisturizers, perfumes, solvents, cosmetics, personal care products, wood finishes and insecticides.

http://www.chinesemedicinetools.com/com ... ive-health

[compared2what?]

Can you cite some figures as to how Lupron has harmed autistic children?

Not per se, no. There are studies on the harmful effects of Lupron with numbers that are as applicable to anyone taking it as they are to anyone else taking it, though. And I'll go rustle those up for you in a moment. Along with the ones for Androcur, which is also part of the Lupron Protocol. Or it is per the Geiers, who came up with it, at least.

But catbirdsteed, are you seriously asking me to explain how and why it's harmful to chemically suppress hormone production in children? You're not supposed to give Lupron and Androcur to children at all. They're not approved for pediatric use. They're hormone suppressants.

No, I am asking if you have any indication regarding studies /results /lawsuits that will serve to drive the point further home in regards as to how dangerous and inappropriate this protocol is.

My apologies. I guess I still don't understand the reason for your question, though.

I mean, to me, the dangers and inappropriateness of giving a dangerous and inappropriate pharmaceutical medication to children who don't have the only pediatric condition for which that medication is approved are self-evident. As I assume that they are to you, in view of your strong opposition to the overprescription of synthetic pharmaceuticals to children in the case of drugs that have both far fewer demonstrable risks and far more extensively established medical efficacy than Lupron does even when it's not being used for off-label purposes.

But....I don't know. Even assuming that my above assumption is incorrect, and that for some reason you're willing to concede only as much as a paid lobbyist for Lupron would, at a bare minimum, be unable to avoid, you'd still have to concede that it was a drug that potentially had very significant associated risks for the people who took it. Right? Because that's not in dispute.

From which, or so it seems to me, it should follow that there's neither any reason nor any need to establish exactly how dangerous or inappropriate prescribing it to autistic children who don't meet the criteria for a diagnosis of Central Precocious Puberty might be. Because unless and until you've established that there's any reason or any need to prescribe it to them, the answer will obviously always be: Too dangerous to contemplate doing it, and impossible to regard as a medical treatment rather than a frightening form of medical experimentation on vulnerable minor human subjects.

IOW: The burden of proof is on the other side of the equation at this point.

So please allow me to ask you whether you have any indication regarding studies/results/lawsuits-successfully-defended-against that suggest it's a risk based on anything more substantial than stuff like the Geiers' misunderstanding of a paper that was published in Acta Crystallographica in 1968.

Do you? Or, absent that, any other compelling reason to doubt that its dangers and inappropriateness are other than what the pharmaceutical company that makes it -- and that recommends discontinuation at age 11 or 12 for kids with CPP, incidentally -- says they are?

Because if you don't, I can only say again that I don't think I understand enough about why you're raising the question to provide a satisfactory response.
___________________

A very clear and abundantly linked/footnoted series of articles identifying the almost numberless errors, omissions and flaws in the various, not-always-consistent papers, studies and public pronouncements made by the Geiers can be found here, should you wish to avail yourself of any of the information contained therein, for rebuttal or any other purposes.

[compared2what?]

Just for the record, I'd like to make it clear that as far as I'm concerned, the flaws in Andrew Wakefield's work and ethical standards are much too abundant for there to be any need of going as far afield as the dubious use of Lupron as a treatment for autism in order to take issue with them. And as far as I'm aware, it's not being used to discredit him elsewhere, either.

Honestly, except that the Geiers'Lupron and Andrew Wakefield are both championed by the same antivaccine/autism activist and/or advocacy groups, I don't think and have never seen anyone else suggest that they have any relationship to one another at all. And I don't see how that necessarily works in only one direction to malign Andrew Wakefield. Or the Geiers. Their sins are their own and belong to each of them separately.

Pthalates are bad. And also frightening.

WRT hormonal/endocrine disruption, are you talking about the atypicals? Because if you are, that would suggest that they're being prescribed at, like, monstrously high dosages. Way beyond I can imagine there being any way to justify. Malpractice levels, basically. Or so I'd imagine. And either way, I'm interested in knowing more about whatever it is that you have to tell about them. As I've said elsewhere, I don't think it would be good medicine if those drugs were to become commonly prescribed to autistic children. Though I don't know a whole lot about it, I should confess. I didn't realize that they were even enough in the picture for common prescription already to be looming on the horizon.

[catbirdsteed]

Medications for Autism
By National Institute of Mental Health

"Medications are often used to treat behavioral problems, such as aggression, self-injurious behavior, and severe tantrums, that keep the person with an autism spectrum disorder (“autism”) from functioning more effectively at home or school.

The medications used are those that have been developed to treat similar symptoms in other disorders. Many of these medications are prescribed “off-label.” This means they have not been officially approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for use in children, but the doctor prescribes the medications if he or she feels they are appropriate for your child. Further research needs to be done to ensure not only the efficacy but the safety of psychotropic agents used in the treatment of children and adolescents.

On October 6, 2006 the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved risperidone (generic name) or Risperdal (brand name) for the symptomatic treatment of irritability in autistic children and adolescents ages 5 to 16. The approval is the first for the use of a drug to treat behaviors associated with autism in children. These behaviors are included under the general heading of irritability, and include aggression, deliberate self-injury and temper tantrums.

Olanzapine (Zyprexa) and other antipsychotic medications are used “off-label” for the treatment of aggression and other serious behavioral disturbances in children, including children with autism. Off-label means a doctor will prescribe a medication to treat a disorder or in an age group that is not included among those approved by the FDA. Other medications are used to address symptoms or other disorders in children with autism. Fluoxetine (Prozac) and sertraline (Zoloft) are approved by the FDA for children age 7 and older with obsessive-compulsive disorder. Fluoxetine is also approved for children age 8 and older for the treatment of depression.

Fluoxetine and sertraline are antidepressants known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs). Despite the relative safety and popularity of SSRIs and other antidepressants, some studies have suggested that they may have unintentional effects on some people, especially adolescents and young adults.

In 2004, after a thorough review of data, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) adopted a “black box” warning label on all antidepressant medications to alert the public about the potential increased risk of suicidal thinking or attempts in children and adolescents taking antidepressants. In 2007, the agency extended the warning to include young adults up to age 25. A “black box” warning is the most serious type of warning on prescription drug labeling. The warning emphasizes that patients of all ages should be closely monitored, especially during the initial weeks of treatment, for any worsening depression, suicidal thinking or behavior, or any unusual changes in behavior such as sleeplessness, agitation, or withdrawal from normal social situations.

A child with autism may not respond in the same way to medications as typically developing children. It is important that parents work with a doctor who has experience with children with autism. A child should be monitored closely while taking a medication. The doctor will prescribe the lowest dose possible to be effective. Ask the doctor about any side effects the medication may have and keep a record of how your child responds to the medication. It will be helpful to read the “patient insert” that comes with your child’s medication. Some people keep the patient inserts in a small notebook to be used as a reference. This is most useful when several medications are prescribed.

Anxiety and depression. The selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI’s) are the medications most often prescribed for symptoms of anxiety, depression, and/or obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). Only one of the SSRI’s, fluoxetine, (Prozac®) has been approved by the FDA for both OCD and depression in children age 7 and older. Three that have been approved for OCD are fluvoxamine (Luvox®), age 8 and older; sertraline (Zoloft®), age 6 and older; and clomipramine (Anafranil®), age 10 and older. Treatment with these medications can be associated with decreased frequency of repetitive, ritualistic behavior and improvements in eye contact and social contacts. The FDA is studying and analyzing data to better understand how to use the SSRI’s safely, effectively, and at the lowest dose possible.

Behavioral problems. Antipsychotic medications have been used to treat severe behavioral problems. These medications work by reducing the activity in the brain of the neurotransmitter dopamine. Among the older, typical antipsychotics, such as haloperidol (Haldol®), thioridazine, fluphenazine, and chlorpromazine, haloperidol was found in more than one study to be more effective than a placebo in treating serious behavioral problems. However, haloperidol, while helpful for reducing symptoms of aggression, can also have adverse side effects, such as sedation, muscle stiffness, and abnormal movements.

Placebo-controlled studies of the newer“atypica” antipsychotics are being conducted on children with autism. The first such study, conducted by the NIMH-supported Research Units on Pediatric Psychopharmacology (RUPP) Autism Network, was on risperidone (Risperdal®). Results of the 8-week study were reported in 2002 and showed that risperidone was effective and well tolerated for the treatment of severe behavioral problems in children with autism. The most common side effects were increased appetite, weight gain and sedation. Further long-term studies are needed to determine any long-term side effects. Other atypical antipsychotics that have been studied recently with encouraging results are olanzapine (Zyprexa®) and ziprasidone (Geodon®). Ziprasidone has not been associated with significant weight gain.

Seizures. Seizures are found in one in four persons with autism spectrum disorders (ASD), most often in those who have low IQ or are mute. They are treated with one or more of the anticonvulsants. These include such medications as carbamazepine (Tegretol®), lamotrigine (Lamictal®), topiramate (Topamax®), and valproic acid (Depakote®). The level of the medication in the blood should be monitored carefully and adjusted so that the least amount possible is used to be effective. Although medication usually reduces the number of seizures, it cannot always eliminate them.

Inattention and hyperactivity. Stimulant medications such as methylphenidate (Ritalin®), used safely and effectively in persons with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, have also been prescribed for children with autism. These medications may decrease impulsivity and hyperactivity in some children, especially those higher functioning children.

Several other medications have been used to treat ASD symptoms; among them are other antidepressants, naltrexone, lithium, and some of the benzodiazepines such as diazepam (Valium®) and lorazepam (Ativan®). The safety and efficacy of these medications in children with autism has not been proven. Since people may respond differently to different medications, your child’s unique history and behavior will help your doctor decide which medication might be most beneficial."

I don't wanna talk Lupron anymore, but it is not just you that conflates AW with the drug, lots of leftbrainrightbrain type folks have been using the Lupron meme to further the denigration of AW. I have seen it a couple of dozen times, and i spend more time at "pro" AW sites, than "anti" AW sites. I did see a brief anecdote where Kim Stagaliano took time to portray her distinct disinterest in "treating" any of her THREE autistic/ASD daughters with this very severe and potentially dangerous allopathic medication. I don't think she mentioned the Geiers personally at all in that anecdote and she did not criticize parents who had tried it.

An odd memory-anecdote about treatment of autistic kids allopathically: The former child client, i talked about him in threads here 2 years ago- very severe- was found to have something like c-dif, I don't recall what they gave him, but his pica went from bad to worse. He would put almost anything in his mouth while on the intestinal antibiotic. He would hold his food in his mouth for 20 minutes and eventually let it fall on his lap. His BMs went from bad to much worse, crazy colors, horrid smell, full of candles, crayons, plastic, large chunks of undigested food, while the look in his eyes was oh-so-much-more pained and distant. Eventually he was "cured" went off the antibiotic and bounced back to his "normal" nasty BMs and comparatively mild pica. It was painful to watch, but i also had to try to feed him, toilet him and sometimes, carefully, remove dangerous items from his mouth. Interesting moments there.

I do wish i had the where with all to have been watching the view count. I suspect others might still be following our little back and forth here, c2w but if I don't see the numbers and no one else chimes in any longer, well than it is not worth my while, as I think we both know by now that we are working more on the fence-sitters here than on each other. Asking for feedback does not usually seem to pan out. Still, it can be an interesting process...

[eyeno]

catbirdsteed for the record I am squarely on your side on this issue. Injecting mixed metals into a small child 30 times is so stupid it defies my ability to believe they can sell people on the fact that it is a wise thing to do. If we had the time and desire to do so, we could list a pro and con sheet on this one that would be so heavy on the con side that the sheet would flip right off the table. Speaking of "cons", the number of cons that are run in the vaccine industry are so large we could probably spend year trying to document them all. In my opinion, autism or no autism, this one should be a no brainer.

[catbirdsteed]

This just went down, for instance:
http://www.medpagetoday.com/Washington- ... atch/25009

WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court has ruled 6-3 that a federal law shields drug companies from being sued over injuries caused by childhood vaccines.

The case was brought by the parents of Hannah Bruesewitz, now a young adult, and charges that she developed a seizure disorder after receiving her third dose of the diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DTP) vaccine when she was 6 months old. She has suffered developmental problems ever since, and will likely require medical attention for the rest of her life, her parents say.

The dose of the vaccine in question, TRI-IMMUNOL, came from a lot that generated 65 reports of adverse reactions, including 39 emergency room visits, six hospitalizations, and two deaths, according to documents from the U.S. appeals court that heard the case in 2009.

The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 created a so-called "vaccine court" to address safety claims in an attempt to ease the threat of lawsuits in state courts against pharmaceutical companies and insure against them pulling out of what they claim is an unprofitable vaccine marketplace completely.

Under the law, people injured by vaccines are eligible for compensation for medical care, rehabilitation, counseling, special education, and vocational training expenses; diminished earning capacity; pain and suffering; and $250,000 for vaccine-related deaths.

The Bruesewitz suit argues that the vaccine given to Hannah had a flawed design, contained toxins that caused her seizures, and that Wyeth could have manufactured a safer vaccine but chose not to.

...

"We have great sympathy for the Bruesewitzes," said Pfizer general Counsel Amy Schulman in a statement. "We recognize, however, that the Vaccine Act provides for full consideration of the liability issues through the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. Here the Vaccine Court concluded that the petitioners failed to prove their child's condition was caused by vaccination."

The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) -- which was one of 21 health organizations that filed friend of the court briefs siding with Pfizer that that the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act preempts design defect claims against vaccine manufacturers -- applauded the decision.

"Childhood vaccines are among the greatest medical breakthroughs of the last century," said AAP President O. Marion Burton, MD, in a statement. "Today's Supreme Court decision protects children by strengthening our national immunization system and ensuring that vaccines will continue to prevent the spread of infectious diseases in this country."

Although the current case does not involve autism, this outcome may have important implications for the hundreds of lawsuits filed against vaccine makers by people who allege the shots caused their children to develop autism. Numerous courts have ruled in the past year that there is no link between common childhood vaccines and autism.

Thanks for the feedback, eyeno, and c2w, I did not mean to imply that you don't offer feedback, you do and it is often very specific and insightful and sometimes quite helpful in achieving real clarification. Besides that, its usually interesting, so thank you.

[compared2what?]

Medications for Autism

I'm not understanding you again. I mean, I'm not sure what point you're making.

I don't wanna talk Lupron anymore,

That's fine with me. I mentioned it only in passing, with a clear qualification attached indicating that it was only by focusing of thoughts like the thought of the child whose intestines were perforated in 11 or so places during one of the medically unnecessary invasive procedures that the AW-led crew of self-serving doctors at the Royal Free performed while mining living human beings for publishable data on little more than a whim (plus about $800,000, in AW's case) or like the children being chemically castrated via Lupron that I was able to work around my own inability to conceive that any human being, including AW, could be capable of such cruelties.

My point was, explicitly, that I was motivated solely by the obligation I felt to protect vulnerable children and their worried, easily exploitable parents from abusive practices. And that's all abusive practices. And not just the ones that tickle my fancy for a particular doctrine. Therefore, I am not motivated by the need to condemn AW or anyone else. I have no such need, in fact. I do have a need to forgive. And that can be problematic sometimes. But we all have our quirks. And anyway, that's neither on topic, nor is it here, and nor is it there. So the hell with it.

Anyway. That's fine with me. I was just trying to answer your question.

but it's not just you that conflates AW with the drug

Whoever else it might be that does, I do not. As I'd already said in so many words before you wrote that. I have no idea how what's really a pretty tortured and overdetermined reading of a sentence fragment in some remarks that I made primarily in the service of establishing some common ground on which we could stand, united in our opposition to the needless suffering of children if divided in our estimation of who they were and at whose hands they suffered managed to make such a very strong impression on you that it rendered you unable to process or remember my much clearer and more recent statement on the matter.

But please make a note of the latter, okay? Because I do not conflate them. I've said that I don't. And I haven't shown that I do. So be fair, dude. It's not like I go around yanking your words out of your posts at the root the better to shape them into a weapon that I can then use against you. I'd appreciate it if you returned the favor.

I do wish i had the where with all to have been watching the view count. I suspect others might still be following our little back and forth here, c2w but if I don't see the numbers and no one else chimes in any longer, well than it is not worth my while, as I think we both know by now that we are working more on the fence-sitters here than on each other.

In all goony and geeky sincerity and on my honor, I swear that I do not know that at all. I'm not working on anyone, or even trying to. I like you. Naturally, I have perceived that we disagree on a few minor matters. But I try to state my views and the reasons for them honestly. And I really don't expect you either to share them or not to share them. I hope that you'll give them a fair reading, of course. But by your standards, not mine.

And....I've said that I don't really understand your attachment to Wakefield, but do understand your attachment to your beliefs and respect their basis in your experience already. But you know. Please allow me to say it again. I mean it.

Asking for feedback does not usually seem to pan out. Still, it can be an interesting process...

It can.

[catbirdsteed]

c2w. I'm sorry, perhaps it is a bit presumptuous to use conflate, but to me the word is really somewhat general and not really pejorative.

Thesaurus
conflate
verb
the plot gets weighed down when the writers conflate too many issues into one episode mix, blend, fuse, unite, integrate.

'cause it is just the portrayal in the thread that I mean. A matter of lumping them together, not some fatal logical error. Again, sorry if that offended you. I 'm also willing to withdraw my blunt and graceless suggestion that you might want to influence people in any such a way in this thread. I guessed that many of us are activists or agents of change (note: lower case "a"), I sure am, perhaps not always willingly, even.

Others may simply want the world to unfold. I guess that's me sometimes too. As to the first point: I did think you were expressing an unawareness of the scope of medications for autistic children, thus the Medications for Autism list. Even if you were not, I was willing to conflate that list of meds into the info stream at that moment. Perhaps it's poor rhetoric, but I am certainly no expert in that area. I'm just sort of thinking my way through this issue with my mind and my body.

Also, thank you for being concise.

[jam.fuse]

http://www.rense.com/general59/vvac.htm

Vaccine Ingredients -
Formaldehyde, Aspartame,
Mercury, Etc
11-11-4

This following list of common vaccines and their ingredients should shock anyone.

The numbers of microbes, antibiotics, chemicals, heavy metals and animal byproducts is staggering. Would you knowingly inject these materials into your children?

Acel-Immune DTaP - Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis Wyeth-Ayerst 800.934.5556
* diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis adsorbed, formaldehyde, aluminum hydroxide, aluminum phosphate, thimerosal, and polysorbate 80 (Tween-80) gelatin Act HIB

Haemophilus - Influenza B Connaught Laboratories 800.822.2463
* Haemophilus influenza Type B, polyribosylribitol phosphate ammonium sulfate, formalin, and sucrose

Attenuvax - Measles Merck & Co., Inc. 800-672-6372
* measles live virus neomycin sorbitol hydrolized gelatin, chick embryo

Biavax - Rubella Merck & Co., Inc. 800-672-6372
* rubella live virus neomycin sorbitol hydrolized gelatin, human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue

BioThrax - Anthrax Adsorbed BioPort Corporation 517.327.1500
* nonencapsulated strain of Bacillus anthracis aluminum hydroxide, benzethonium chloride, and formaldehyde

DPT - Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis GlaxoSmithKline 800.366.8900 x5231
* diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis adsorbed, formaldehyde, aluminum phosphate, ammonium sulfate, and thimerosal, washed sheep RBCs

Dryvax - Smallpox (not licensed d/t expiration) Wyeth-Ayerst 800.934.5556
* live vaccinia virus, with "some microbial contaminants," according to the Working Group on Civilian Biodefense polymyxcin B sulfate, streptomycin sulfate, chlortetracycline hydrochloride, and neomycin sulfate glycerin, and phenol -a compound obtained by distillation of coal tar vesicle fluid from calf skins Engerix-B

Recombinant Hepatitis B GlaxoSmithKline 800.366.8900 x5231
* genetic sequence of the hepatitis B virus that codes for the surface antigen (HbSAg), cloned into GMO yeast, aluminum hydroxide, and thimerosal

Fluvirin Medeva Pharmaceuticals 888.MEDEVA 716.274.5300
* influenza virus, neomycin, polymyxin, beta-propiolactone, chick embryonic fluid

FluShield Wyeth-Ayerst 800.934.5556
* trivalent influenza virus, types A&B gentamicin sulphate formadehyde, thimerosal, and polysorbate 80 (Tween-80) chick embryonic fluid

Havrix - Hepatitis A GlaxoSmithKline 800.366.8900 x5231
* hepatitis A virus, formalin, aluminum hydroxide, 2-phenoxyethanol, and polysorbate 20 residual MRC5 proteins -human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue

HiB Titer - Haemophilus Influenza B Wyeth-Ayerst 800.934.5556
* haemophilus influenza B, polyribosylribitol phosphate, yeast, ammonium sulfate, thimerosal, and chemically defined yeast-based medium

Imovax Connaught Laboratories 800.822.2463
* rabies virus adsorbed, neomycin sulfate, phenol, red indicator human albumin, human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue

IPOL Connaught Laboratories 800.822.2463
* 3 types of polio viruses neomycin, streptomycin, and polymyxin B formaldehyde, and 2-phenoxyethenol continuous line of monkey kidney cells

JE-VAX - Japanese Ancephalitis Aventis Pasteur USA 800.VACCINE
* Nakayama-NIH strain of Japanese encephalitis virus, inactivated formaldehyde, polysorbate 80 (Tween-80), and thimerosal mouse serum proteins, and gelatin

LYMErix - Lyme GlaxoSmithKline 888-825-5249
* recombinant protein (OspA) from the outer surface of the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi kanamycin aluminum hydroxide, 2-phenoxyethenol, phosphate buffered saline

MMR - Measles-Mumps-Rubella Merck & Co., Inc. 800.672.6372
* measles, mumps, rubella live virus, neomycin sorbitol, hydrolized gelatin, chick embryonic fluid, and human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue

M-R-Vax - Measles-Rubella Merck & Co., Inc. 800.672.6372
* measles, rubella live virus neomycin sorbitol hydrolized gelatin, chick embryonic fluid, and human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue

Menomune - Meningococcal Connaught Laboratories 800.822.2463
* freeze-dried polysaccharide antigens from Neisseria meningitidis bacteria, thimerosal, and lactose

Meruvax I - Mumps Merck & Co., Inc. 800.672.6372
* mumps live virus neomycin sorbitol hydrolized gelatin

NYVAC - (new smallpox batch, not licensed) Aventis Pasteur USA 800.VACCINE
* highly-attenuated vaccinia virus, polymyxcin B, sulfate, streptomycin sulfate, chlortetracycline hydrochloride, and neomycin sulfate glycerin, and phenol -a compound obtained by distillation of coal tar vesicle fluid from calf skins

Orimune - Oral Polio Wyeth-Ayerst 800.934.5556
* 3 types of polio viruses, attenuated neomycin, streptomycin sorbitol monkey kidney cells and calf serum

Pneumovax - Streptococcus Pneumoniae Merck & Co., Inc. 800.672.6372
* capsular polysaccharides from polyvalent (23 types), pneumococcal bacteria, phenol,

Prevnar Pneumococcal - 7-Valent Conjugate Vaccine Wyeth Lederle 800.934.5556
* saccharides from capsular Streptococcus pneumoniae antigens (7 serotypes) individually conjugated to diphtheria CRM 197 protein aluminum phosphate, ammonium sulfate, soy protein, yeast

RabAvert - Rabies Chiron Behring GmbH & Company 510.655.8729
* fixed-virus strain, Flury LEP neomycin, chlortetracycline, and amphotericin B, potassium glutamate, and sucrose human albumin, bovine gelatin and serum "from source countries known to be free of bovine spongioform encephalopathy," and chicken protein

Rabies Vaccine Adsorbed GlaxoSmithKline 800.366.8900 x5231
*rabies virus adsorbed, beta-propiolactone, aluminum phosphate, thimerosal, and phenol, red rhesus monkey fetal lung cells

Recombivax - Recombinant Hepatitis B Merck & Co., Inc. 800.672.6372
* genetic sequence of the hepatitis B virus that codes for the surface antigen (HbSAg), cloned into GMO yeast, aluminum hydroxide, and thimerosal

RotaShield - Oral Tetravalent Rotavirus (recalled) Wyeth-Ayerst 800.934.5556
* 1 rhesus monkey rotavirus, 3 rhesus-human reassortant live viruses neomycin sulfate, amphotericin B potassium monophosphate, potassium diphosphate, sucrose, and monosodium glutamate (MSG) rhesus monkey fetal diploid cells, and bovine fetal serum smallpox (not licensed due to expiration)

40-yr old stuff "found" in Swiftwater, PA freezer Aventis Pasteur USA 800.VACCINE
* live vaccinia virus, with "some microbial contaminants," according to the Working Group on Civilian Biodefense polymyxcin B sulfate, streptomycin sulfate, chlortetracycline hydrochloride, and neomycin sulfate glycerin, and phenol -a compound obtained by distillation of coal tar vesicle fluid from calf skins

Smallpox (new, not licensed) Acambis, Inc. 617.494.1339 in partnership with Baxter BioScience
* highly-attenuated vaccinia virus, polymyxcin B sulfate, streptomycin sulfate, chlortetracycline hydrochloride, and neomycin sulfate glycerin, and phenol -a compound obtained by distillation of coal tar vesicle fluid from calf skins

TheraCys BCG (intravesicle -not licensed in US for tuberculosis) Aventis Pasteur USA 800.VACCINE
* live attenuated strain of Mycobacterium bovis monosodium glutamate (MSG), and polysorbate 80 (Tween-80)

Tripedia - Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis Aventis Pasteur USA 800.VACCINE
*Corynebacterium diphtheriae and Clostridium tetani toxoids and acellular Bordetella pertussis adsorbed aluminum potassium sulfate, formaldehyde, thimerosal, and polysorbate 80 (Tween-80) gelatin, bovine extract

US-sourced Typhim Vi - Typhoid Aventis Pasteur USA SA 800.VACCINE
* cell surface Vi polysaccharide from Salmonella typhi Ty2 strain, aspartame, phenol, and polydimethylsiloxane (silicone)

Varivax - Chickenpox Merck & Co., Inc. 800.672.6372
* varicella live virus neomycin phosphate, sucrose, and monosodium glutamate (MSG) processed gelatin, fetal bovine serum, guinea pig embryo cells, albumin from human blood, and human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue

YF-VAX - Yellow Fever Aventis Pasteur USA 800.VACCINE
* 17D strain of yellow fever virus sorbitol chick embryo, and gelatin

http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html

Vaccine Liberation Information

http://www.vaclib.org/pdf/exemption.htm

[compared2what?]

jam.fuse, do you eat any packaged foods? Do you drink alcohol? Do you smoke tobacco or anything else? Do you take over-the-counter medication of any kind, like maybe Advil or Benadryl? Do you like sweets? Do you eat eggs? Do you ever use a microwave oven? Or toothpaste? Or a toothbrush?

Do you realize that if you made a list of every single ingredient in the things you consume/absorb/inhale on a daily basis it would be loaded with all of the things that are or sound toxic on that list, and in much larger quantities?

With the exceptions of (a) the viruses, which have been being used for immunization purposes successfully -- ie, without giving people those viruses -- for more than 200 years; and (b) maybe the animal embryonic cells, I don't really know. But I don't see why they would do anyone any harm, they're present in tiny amounts. And it's not like they become a part of you forever or like you're in danger of starting to get all Island of Dr. Moreau as a result of their inclusion. It's pretty much: vaccine ingredients in; vaccine ingredients out.

Even by the early age at which children get vaccinated, they generally have higher mercury blood levels than they might get from what the thimerosol would break down to if even it were still in the vaccines in more than trace amounts. And that's certainly a problem.

Oh. Well, the aborted fetal tissue probably isn't in too many comestibles either, I've got to admit. But it doesn't seem very...Oh, I don't know. I'll get back to you on that one, if there's anything to get back about. Because it never hurts to fact-check. Trust but verify and all that.

[compared2what?]

Yikes. I'm grateful to that Vaccine Liberation site for letting me know that Phyllis Schlafly wants me to get smallpox. (Conflation intentional, aim humorous.)

They do have a very, very seriously hard-right-'n'-white orientation, though. Which I guess is not so shocking, really. I mean: It was on Rense, after all. Also, I'm sorry, honey. I didn't go digging for their sources, since I don't like to hang out in that company if I don't have to.

I retract the suggestion that they might not be good, therefore. I don't care for their politics, but I'm not in a position to speak to anything else about them.

[jam.fuse]

Do you realize that if you made a list of every single ingredient in the things you consume/absorb/inhale on a daily basis it would be loaded with all of the things that are or sound toxic on that list, and in much larger quantities?

Yes! I love the smell of guinea pig embryo and rhesus monkey fetal lung cells in the morning...

Smells like....

DAYGLO ABORTION CHILI

14 g chili pwoder
7 g dried red peppers
7 g cayenne pepper
13 fresh jalapeno peppers
1 large cooking onion
5 cloves garlic
1 can tomato soup
1 can red kidny beens
1 can beer
1 ripe human foetus

Behead and debone foetus then brown meat in an open saucepan. After draining
the fat, add the diced onion and peppers and saute. Add the tomato soup and
the remaining spices and simmer for 30 minutes. Add the can of beer and the
kidney beens. Cover and boil for 1 hour.
The meal will serve 6 and should be served hot.

Prior to serving place foetal head on a stake and mount in your front lawn
so your neighbors know your having our chili.

Ironically this would probably be far less dangerous than most of the vaccines cited above... BUT maybe there are some good ones, just those autism inducing ones got to go, that's my feeling. I ain't no Alfred Einstein you know.

[compared2what?]

Show some proof of their great dangers or don't make the claim.